Current best 6" x 8" sealed beam replacements

Howdy folks-

Got a '90 S10. A deer smashed one of my Cibie H4 conversion headlights, along with a good chunk of the grill.

What's the best current 8" x 6" sealed beam conversion? Projectors are generally too deep to work(go through the back of the headlight bucket, hit the batteries), and I haven't been impressed with the performance of the LED options I've seen. Is Cibie still the best bet, or are LED options catching up?

Note: I am only interested in safe, legal lighting. HID "retrofitz" and such need not apply.

Thanks!

If you've already got Cibies, a single replacement Cibie is probably your most economical option (I'm assuming that you already have a relay harness.)

The JW Speaker LEDs are supposed to be good, but the purchase price is prohibitive unless you're starting from scratch (in which case they might work OK without the hassle of adding a relay harness.)

I have likely the same Cibies in my Cherokee with a relay harness and have been happy. I bought them right when the various LED retrofits were just being introduced and figured on sticking with what's proven to work well.

Is the mounting area still OK? I'd probably run to AutoZone or NAPA or somewhere and get the 6054NHP (or heck, ANY 6054) to stick in there while waiting to get a replacement Cibie H4. Or, just drop the money on a pair of Truck-Lite 27450Cs or JW Speaker 8800s. (I'd still be loath to drive with only one headlamp, even in the broadest of daylight, though, so the off-the-shelf 6054 may still be a good idea.)

Slightly off-topic, but what's inside a 6054 or similar? What's the lamp source? Is it a pair of unshielded axial filaments in one globe, similar to an HB5? Or are they transverse?

Most H6054s have C6/C6 (twin transverse, like 9004) filaments, 65w high beam and 35w low beam. The GE Night Hawk H6054NH, which really is the only good H6054, has C8/C8 (twin axial, like 9007) filaments, 65w high beam and 55w low beam. There is no H6054NHP. There have been other H6054s with C8/C8 filaments, such as the Wagner BriteLite, but its focus is poor. There have also been H6054s with 65/55w C6/C6 filaments (Sylvania Xtravision) but its focus is downright sloppy. UPDATE May 2020: The Night Hawks are no longer worth buying; they are useless garbage now, just like all other sealed beams on the market; see here )

As for upgrades from sealed beams: Cibie H4s are excellent. So are Bosches. Marchals are super-premium but also hard to find. Avoid Hellas and the numerous off-brands. I like Speaker's Model 8900 quite a lot. I'm less enthusiastic about Truck-Lite's lamp (distracting streaks/spots/artifacts in the beam).

Thank you folks.

Mounting area is fine, and this isn't my daily driver or my only vehicle by any means. This is the same vehicle that has the Hella 90mm bixenon auxiliary lights I looked for in a previous thread, so while cost isn't a huge concern, neither is absolute maximum output.

Looks like another Cibie is it.

I have a MK1 Mr2 and a MK2 Mr2. One has the Hella's, one has Cibie's. Yeah, the Cibie is better, but not HUGELY better, at least to my completely subjective experience. Where does Hella fall short?

Thanks!

The Hella lamp is much less efficient: there is less light in its beam than there is in the Cibie's beam. Also, the Hella has an unreasonably large amount of vertical distance between its low beam hot spot and its high beam hot spot, so it is essentially impossible to aim the lamp for optimal high beam and optimal low beam distribution; you have to choose one or the other.

Actually if absolute maximum output *is* a concern, Cibies (or another high quality H4 sealed beam replacement) are still the way to go. You can get quality H4 bulbs in all sorts of blatantly illegal wattages should you so desire, as long as your wiring is up to the task. The only reason these aren't ludicrously unsafe is because of the European beam pattern with the sharp cutoff. The same cannot be said for a lot of other formats, and with the Speaker LEDs you're limited to stock output.

Used to be "Autopal" housings were recommended for those on a budget as being "almost as good" as Cibie for a lot less money. Is that still the case?

Absolutely not. Autopals and Neolites are not headlamps and never have been. They are sized and shaped like headlamps, but that's as close as they come. They do not provide even barely adequate safety performance, and their type approval markings are unwarranted.

It is an error to think that a low beam cutoff is some kind of magic -- but it's a common error. You see it all over the internet forums: "Wow, look at the cutoff! It must be a good headlight!" The fact is the light distribution (under the cutoff) is important. The sharpness of the cutoff, and its shape, are low on the list of factors that go into determining how good a headlamp is. It is also important to understand that just because there's a cutoff, that doesn't mean you can use whatever bulb wattage you want and drive around without glaring other drivers. That's just plain not true.

Also, there is no single fixed "stock output" of a headlamp. The output of the JW Speaker LED headlamps is very much greater than the output of an H4 headlamp (any H4 headlamp), so it's not really valid to make a comparison on the basis of "stock output".

If Cibies or Bosches are not in the budget, and inexpensive headlamps are needed in the 142mm x 200mm size we're talking about in this thread, there really is only one smart choice, and that is the GE Night Hawk H6054NH. There are no replaceable-bulb headlamps in this size that are both cheap and good.

I understand that the cutoff is not the end-all and be-all of combating glare, but it's still important. There are some lights that are glaring and yet dim at the same time, due to their awful beam patterns! It's certainly not the only criterion for a good beam pattern either, but I'm taking it as given that we all agree that Cibies are good.

I don't understand the comment that Speakers are higher output than a H4 headlight though - they're listed as 1770 raw lumens/850 effective lumens on high beam for the format that we're talking about here.

http://www.jwspeaker.com/products/headlights/model-8900-5x7-rectangular.pdf

now trying to get the specs on a H4 bulb even from a good mfgr. like Philips is apparently damn near impossible, e.g.

http://download.p4c.philips.com/files/9/9003xvs2/9003xvs2_pss_aenus.pdf

but the "raw lumens" numbers from Speaker seem to be on the high end but not outside the range of possibility for a good H4 bulb...

Now if anyone wants to compare, I'd love to see a side by side of Cibies vs. Speakers. I have the former (being fed a steady diet of full alternator voltage, usually around 13.9V) but not the latter...

N8N said:

I understand that the cutoff is not the end-all and be-all of combating glare, but it's still important.

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It really is not as important as a lot of people think. There are plenty of very effective, low-glare headlamps without sharp cutoffs.

I don't understand the comment that Speakers are higher output than a H4 headlight though - they're listed as 1770 raw lumens/850 effective lumens on high beam for the format that we're talking about here.

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Yes, and 1350 raw lumens/650 effective lumens on low beam.

now trying to get the specs on a H4 bulb even from a good mfgr. like Philips is apparently damn near impossible

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No it's not -- the nominal output of a 60/55w H4 bulb at 13.2v is 1650/1000 lumens, high/low beam. But that's lumens coming off the bulb (JW Speaker calls "raw" lumens), not lumens coming out the front of the headlamp and reaching the road (JW Speaker calls "effective" lumens). The LED optics are quite a bit more efficient than the parabolic optics in an H4 headlamp, so compared to the H4 headlamp, more of the "raw" lumens in the Speaker LED headlamp reach the road as "effective" lumens. Moreover, the seeing distance is much longer with the Speaker LED headlamp because the beam is focused much more effectively. To be specific, the Speaker LED headlamp's low beam peak intensity is 39,375 candela and it is located very close to straight-ahead. The best (Cibie) H4 headlamp's low beam peak intensity is about 15,500 candela and it is located a few degrees over to the right. There is also much less upward stray light (10U to 90U) from the Speaker LED lamp.

Put a high-power bulb in the H4 lamp and yes, your peak intensity goes up, but so does your foreground light -- far higher than it should be; the overlit foreground causes the drivers' eye pupils to constrict, which severely degrades distance seeing ability.

A good H4 headlamp is adequate, but it is not close to being as good as a good LED headlamp (comparing lamps actually available).

I'd love to see a side by side of Cibies vs. Speakers.

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Brew a pot of coffee and take a look at this thread.

the Hella has an unreasonably large amount of vertical distance between its low beam hot spot and its high beam hot spot, so it is essentially impossible to aim the lamp for optimal high beam and optimal low beam distribution; you have to choose one or the other.

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Just an errant thought, Scheinwerfermann, but could this mean the Hella is better suited to applications where it's mounted fairly high off the ground? I'm thinking a big pickup, possibly lifted - something of that sort, where going from "parallel to the road" high to a reasonable (for oncoming traffic) low requires quite a bit of change?

I know this doesn't make the Hella a better light, just wondered if that would be the place to use it if you have the lamp.

Funny, two or three decades back I thought those Hellas were pretty good - not as good as Cibie, but good. Now that I have a pair of 200mm H4 Hellas in a seldom used 1986 F250, I find them somewhat lacking. I suppose to give them their best chance, I should get best quality bulbs and build a really good harness. But if I didn't already have the pair plus one spare, I might be looking for something else.

Yep, the big vertial separation could recommend the Hella for high mounting heights, and you could compensate (somewhat) for its inefficiency with a higher-power bulb.

Scheinwerfermann said:

No it's not -- the nominal output of a 60/55w H4 bulb at 13.2v is 1650/1000 lumens, high/low beam. But that's lumens coming off the bulb (JW Speaker calls "raw" lumens), not lumens coming out the front of the headlamp and reaching the road (JW Speaker calls "effective" lumens). The LED optics are quite a bit more efficient than the parabolic optics in an H4 headlamp, so compared to the H4 headlamp, more of the "raw" lumens in the Speaker LED headlamp reach the road as "effective" lumens. Moreover, the seeing distance is much longer with the Speaker LED headlamp because the beam is focused much more effectively. To be specific, the Speaker LED headlamp's low beam peak intensity is 39,375 candela and it is located very close to straight-ahead. The best (Cibie) H4 headlamp's low beam peak intensity is about 15,500 candela and it is located a few degrees over to the right. There is also much less upward stray light (10U to 90U) from the Speaker LED lamp.

Put a high-power bulb in the H4 lamp and yes, your peak intensity goes up, but so does your foreground light -- far higher than it should be; the overlit foreground causes the drivers' eye pupils to constrict, which severely degrades distance seeing ability.

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I (subjectively) don't see it, I realize that that is unscientific, but I could see it happening if one used overwattage bulbs. But there are overwattage bulbs available that use a 55W filament for the low beam and only go super high power on high beam. Given that there's enough light on the ground to see well in most all conditions to the point where the cutoff limits your seeing distance with the 55W lows I'm not sure that there's a real advantage to going brighter on the low beams - maybe in situations like rain on asphalt where the lane markers tend to disappear, but I have not had an opportunity to experiment in that situation (usually I'm more concentrating on getting to where I'm going so I don't have to drive in such miserable conditions anymore), and usually (real) fog lights tend to help in that situation. I'm thinking something like a 55/100W H4 might be decent if one drove in conditions where a 60W high wasn't adequate but you didn't want to/didn't have room to install driving lights. Or are you saying that you think the Cibies have too much foreground light on high beam as well as low beam?

A good H4 headlamp is adequate, but it is not close to being as good as a good LED headlamp (comparing lamps actually available).

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Probably true now, not sure if that was actually true when I bought my lights several years ago. If nothing else, they're so much better than all but the best factory HIDs that I've driven behind that I'm not real motivated to spend lots of money and rework them yet again - and I'd be willing to bet that they're still better than 80+ percent of the headlights in use on our roads today (and that taking into account the significant numbers of high end German stuff that I see on the roads around here.)

I have seen beamshots of the latest version of the Speaker lights and am impressed, but I'd really want some seat time behind them before considering dropping that kind of coin on something that I suspect would give me a marginal improvement.

Brew a pot of coffee and take a look at this thread.

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Oh look, another internet black hole! Sorry, not today... I actually have things I want to accomplish and that looks like it could keep me sucked in right up to lunchtime!

N8N said:

Given that there's enough light on the ground to see well in most all conditions

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This is definitely not the case. Most drivers do not have adequate light on low beam to drive safely. This is why the "full-time high beam"/"glare-free high beam" systems recently being released are such a big deal: they finally, at long last, fix that problem

I'm thinking something like a 55/100W H4 might be decent if one drove in conditions where a 60W high wasn't adequate but you didn't want to/didn't have room to install driving lights.

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Yes, a 100/55w bulb can be a good choice especially with high headlamp height where you can't put in super high power low beams without blinding other drivers unless you lower the aim angle, which seriously cuts your seeing distance.

(H4 headlamps) they're so much better than all but the best factory HIDs that I've driven behind

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Nope, sorry, we've had this argument before and you're still substituting your subjective judgement for actual reality.

I'd be willing to bet that they're still better than 80+ percent of the headlights in use on our roads today

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You'd lose that bet very, very badly.

I have seen beamshots of the latest version of the Speaker lights and am impressed, but I'd really want some seat time behind them before considering dropping that kind of coin on something that I suspect would give me a marginal improvement

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Wow...you seem to really love H4 headlamps out of proportion to their actual performance!

Some of us still have our minds stuck in 1979. In America, it was either crappy sealed beams or "European" H4 lights by Cibie, Marchal and Hella. Hard to adjust to all the good options we have today (also, I tend to choke on the prices of some of those really good options).

Scheinwerfermann said:

This is definitely not the case. Most drivers do not have adequate light on low beam to drive safely. This is why the "full-time high beam"/"glare-free high beam" systems recently being released are such a big deal: they finally, at long last, fix that problem

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save for the fact that they're not approved for use in the US yet (that is, unless it's happened in the last month or two when I wasn't paying attention.)

I think we're actually saying the same thing but thinking we're disagreeing with each other. Given the constraints of a low beam pattern, and required aiming specs, there is a finite distance past which you won't be able to see farther. After a certain point, throwing more lumens out the front won't allow you to see any farther or drive any faster (with no streetlights or other traffic to contribute to the light that you can use to see by); you'll be simply illuminating the area you're already seeing to a brighter level, which may actually be counterproductive. At least to me, it seems like the Cibie H4s (at least the 7" round and 200mm rectangular, the two that I've used) with a relay harness and 55W lows reach that goal.

And they *are* superior to pretty much every headlight I've driven behind, with the exception of the HIDs in my BMW. Here's a partial list off the top of my head

- sealed beams of just about every format
- 1988 VW GTI 16V US spec "aero" halogens
- 2002 VW GTI 1.8T US spec halogens
- 1990 VW Corrado US spec halogens (OMG those were some awful headlights. "I can't see a (expletive deleted) thing" comes to mind. Shockingly bad.)
- 1990 VW Corrado EU spec halogens with relay harness (these were actually quite good and right up there with the Cibies)
- 1993 Ford F-150 US spec halogens (nearly as bad as the Corrado lights, but with the added bonus of causing lots of glare to other road users)
- 2005 Chevy Impala halogens
- 2008 Chevy Impala halogens
- 2011 or 2012 (I forget) Ford Fusion halogens
- Pontiac Montana halogens (don't know year, friend's vehicle)
- Isuzu Xterra halogens (same)

To date, the three cars I've driven that I've felt the most comfortable at night have been

- my old Porsche 944 with 7" round Cibies and a relay harness (it was pretty pathetic with the stock wiring and non-halogen sealed beams...)
- the Heep with 200mm Cibies and relay harness
- E92 BMW 335i with factory "adaptive" HIDs.

I can't really rank them because I don't feel that I "outdrive" any of those lights on high beam before limiting my speed for other reasons. I learned to love the Cibies when I got them installed on the 944; at the time I felt silly spending so much as a proportion of the value of the car on lighting, but at the time I was commuting on a windy, unlit two-lane road without much traffic, often while it was dark. Before installing the Cibies I felt limited to a safe maximum speed of about 40-45 MPH even on high beam. After upgrading, I installed some old stock 55/60W bulbs I had laying around to try (the kit came with I think 90/100s but I was worried they might be too glaring) and I never installed the brighter ones because on the roads I drove now my speed was limited by how far away the next curve was... I was lighting up the entire length of the longest straightaway on that road and then a little farther on into the woods, even with only 60W.

Hamilton Felix said:

Some of us still have our minds stuck in 1979. In America, it was either crappy sealed beams or "European" H4 lights by Cibie, Marchal and Hella. Hard to adjust to all the good options we have today (also, I tend to choke on the prices of some of those really good options).

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Well, some of us don't make the factory headlights one of the primary factors in the purchase of the vehicle; however, I've learned my lesson by buying a vehicle that I thought was a good deal at the time and finding that retrofitting either UNECE headlights or sealed beam buckets was a very difficult proposition! But when I do get a vehicle that was either originally equipped with sealed beams or has "aero" headlights but UNECE versions available (see Corrado above) upgrading is a no-brainer. I actually prefer sealed beams as that opens up more off the shelf choices for upgrading.

Probably the OP is sick of us going back and forth about this, but as you say, the price of any options that offer any significant advantage over a good Cibie H4 sealed beam replacement is eye-watering, especially for a utility vehicle like a pickup truck (or, say, a Jeep Cherokee to pick a completely random example) and doubly so if you've already made the commitment and installed a heavy-gauge relay harness. At least for me, the Cibies bring my vehicle up to the level where I'm comfortable driving it and am not really wishing for more - in sharp contrast to many of the vehicles that I've owned pre-upgrading.

Scheinwerfermann said:

The output of the JW Speaker LED headlamps is very much greater than the output of an H4 headlamp (any H4 headlamp)...

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That's the answer to my question right there. I'll get a set of Speaker 8800's on the way.

Thanks!

Edit: Whoops, looks like it'll be 8900's.

Damn, you're going BIG!

What bulbs were you running in your H4s? Would be interested in your thoughts, especially if you have the chance to run one Speaker and one Cibie before completely swapping over.

Also, might be interested in your leftovers if you rip out the relay harness, I need a relay harness for another application, PM me if you are interested in selling.

I'd like to think that a dual-filament headlamp is going to have quite a few compromises in it, because the same reflector has to perform both low and high beam functions. Essentially, this'll be most of the top half of the reflector for the low beam, so the whole assembly has to be pretty large. A reflector or projector dedicated to the low beam function, and designed correctly, can put light out farther and control the amount of foreground light from the road surface (backscatter, of course, is another subject).

My '95 Previa has HB3 (essentially, H4) headlamps and are somewhat lacking in the beam pattern alone. Given that they need relays, the output in that beam pattern is definitely below my expectations. My '01 Corolla's HB3/HB4 (high/low) headlamps smack them down soundly. The low beam is a dedicated low, and the high beam is a dedicated high. No compromises like in a single assembly/dual filament system.