True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit light

Aux

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
71
Location
Central Florida
Between the CMG Infinity and the Arc AAA (or others of similar size), which small LED light has the deeper/truer red (longest wavelength)?

For my needs, brightness is not a factor. It will be used as a "cockpit light" in a car for doing paperwork while maintaining night vision somewhat. Thus, preference is given to a dimmer true red over a bright orange-red.
 

paulr

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
10,832
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

I think the CMG should be fine for that. I wouldn't describe it as orange-red, it's the same color as most other red LED's. I think some exist that are a deeper ("cherry") red but those are unusual.
 

dasfx

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jul 24, 2003
Messages
112
Location
Maryland, USA
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

I have 3 red CMGs (gen 1 with no texture on the head) that I use all the time (nothing as cool as a cockpit, but, a boy's gotta pee right?). I've also used it for nighttime walks and meteor showers. The light is nice and wide, great for an area light at night.

DasFX
 

The_LED_Museum

*Retired*
Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Messages
19,414
Location
Federal Way WA. USA
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

I also have an original style red Infinity, with no texture on the head. I don't know where it is at the moment, but as I remember, it uses a true red (640-660nm) LED, and has a remarkably smooth beam considering the LED type.

cmgred.jpg


Note: This picture was taken in early 2000 with a Jam Cam, before I got a good camera.
This red Infinity was the very first flashlight I reviewed. There are 415 .htm files in my d:\gomer\led\ subdirectory, and I'm guessing that at least 350 of them are flashlights. /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/eek.gif
I don't know where the red Infinity is now, but I'm sure it's around here *somewhere*.
 

Kiessling

Flashaholic
Joined
Nov 26, 2002
Messages
16,140
Location
Old World
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

or buy yourself some deep red single LEDs and put them in a Photon Microlight ... and you get the deepest red you'd ever want.
This is very easy, even a technical dumbass like me can do it.
bernhard
 

Quickbeam

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 19, 2001
Messages
4,329
Location
FlashlightReviews.com
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Aux,

We have a good friend who lives a short distance from me who is a pilot - for a living, not just pleasure. He loves the Infinity Red and still has it despite the fact that it has been mostly usurped by the Red LED A2 we just gave him as a late birthday/early christmas present (he went NUTS).

The red Infinity produced just enough light for reading instruments and maps and he would use it by placing it over the ear of his headset under the headstrap so it would shine wherever he was looking.

Off topic:

Re: that article debunking Red light as the proper light to use for night vision. IMHO, although it has some good information, it may be misinterpting some basic facts about vision. My conclusions, based upon published research papers about vision available at any university library (in all likelihood more relable than "internet sources"). I really wish I had kept my college research papers so I could give exact references, but I remember their content and here is what I came up with:

1) The parts of your eye responsible for night vision essentially blind to red light, so red light preserves night vision because the rods are essentially unaffected.

2) The fovea of the eye, where you see the most detail, has the least rods. Red light stimulates the cones in the fovea allowing you to see good detail while not burning out the rhodopsin in the rods.

3) Green and blue green light bleaches the rhodopsin in the rods, making them less sensitive to dim light (a fact frequently overlooked), while red does not.

4) Intense red light will produce afterimages that can overlap with night vision perceptual fields, so keep the red light as dim as possible.

5) For most users, a very dim white light will work nearly as well as a dim red light, since the levels at which preserving night vision are critical (astronomy - perception of extremely dim stars) are rarely needed by the average user.

So basically there is no need to bother with green or blue-green light at all unless you want to show off your neat new LED light to your friends and get a "wow" out of them... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif ...or you are using night vision equipment, which is a whole different story.
 

The_LED_Museum

*Retired*
Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Messages
19,414
Location
Federal Way WA. USA
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Red light can render red lines and other red articles on maps essentially invisible, so that needs to be taken into account too. If there are no red lines or other red features in your map, no problem then.
 

paulr

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
10,832
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Besides making red lines disappear, a red led (or any other monochromatic led) will make all colors on the map look the same. If the map uses different colors to convey information, a white light really helps. Other than for map reading, white leds on keychain lights etc. are in my experience not all that important and I've done fine with a green Photon II.
 

Aux

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
71
Location
Central Florida
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

So far, nobody has recommended the red Arc AAA. Is it perhaps too bright for my described use?

I have no issues with the recommended Infinity - it is less expensive after all!
 

paulr

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
10,832
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Aux, the main prob with the red Arc AAA is they don't make it any more. You might be able to find a used one on BST.
 

Aux

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Dec 26, 2002
Messages
71
Location
Central Florida
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Yes, assuming I can find some.

The Arc AAA is smaller, but I am wondering if it would be too bright for closeup work.
 

paulr

Flashaholic
Joined
Mar 29, 2003
Messages
10,832
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Aux, I think smallness matters mostly if you're going to EDC the light. If you're going to leave it in your car, the Infinity is plenty small.

My guess (unconfirmed) is that the Infinity and Arc leds are the same color. I don't know which is brighter, but they are both red, probably around 650nm. There's nothing "false" about that red, it's really red, it's just not as deep a red as the 690nm(?) cherry red color most commonly seen in cheap keychain lasers.
 

The_LED_Museum

*Retired*
Joined
Aug 12, 2000
Messages
19,414
Location
Federal Way WA. USA
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

[ QUOTE ]
paulr said:
...it's just not as deep a red as the 690nm(?) cherry red color most commonly seen in cheap keychain lasers.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just FYI, the red laser diode found in most of those really cheap laser pointers is 650nm, and I'm guessing they can vary between 650nm and 660nm.

670nm red laser pointers are becoming harder to find these days, and 635nm ones are becoming easier to find.
But 650nm is by far the most common.
 

UnknownVT

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Dec 27, 2002
Messages
3,671
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

There's been a pinned to the top reference thread in the Night Vision section:
Human Night Vision Preservation

Just to make a distinction - there is true Scotopic night vision - that uses the rods only in the eyes -
and what I tend to call dark adaption - where our eyes have adapted to the dark(er) conditions - eg: it's too dark to read by - but we can still generally still see things (ie: it's not "total" darkness) - this is very likely in most urban environments due to the sheer amount of light "pollution"/spill - where the cones of the eyes are really stll being used - any time we can see any colors we are using cones.

When cones are used it is not true Scotopic night vision -to preserve this "dark adaption" - what is needed is just a light that disturbs this dark adaption the least.

The real problem with red for many people is that we do not focus or see well under red light - it is one of the worst lights to see/read a regular (non-astronomy) map by - so to see reasonably well by red one tends to need a brighter red light - which in turn floods/shocks the cones, this defeats the purpose of minimal disturbance.

Color choice in lights - for non-Scotopic dark adaption is probably down to how dim a light one can still see by - and personal choice.

For example I can't offer references or scientific evidence -
but I personally see well by dim yellow/amber light - it seems to give me good definition and contrast - I have even walked unlit countryside/farm outdoors by a yellow Photon.... so for me a dimmish yellow LED is a good general purpose light for me to preserve whatever dark adaption I have acquired and still see reasonable well
- but as always YMMV
 

gwbaltzell

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
578
Location
StL MO
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

I guess I've lurked here long enough. Since one of my pages was mentioned here. Night Vision - The Red Myth Thanks spotlight. Quickbeams must of gotten bored early on since his points, to some extent, are covered on my page. However red does bleach rhodopsin. True night vision is very iffy and may not be what many really want. My page was based not only on months of research but experiments (not real scientific) on the nearest subject - me. I suggest that others try it. Three LEDs. White, blue-green (stoplight green 505nm), and deep-red (I used one that centered on 700nm, bulk of light emitted must be longer than 650nm). I suggest a resistor to limit the max. current tied to one end of a 2 Mohm or larger pot. The other end tied to the other end of the power and the correct end of the LED and the other leg of the LED tied to the wiper. Remember it takes a long time to become fully dark adapted. But you may be surprised how little light you need to sense movement.
 

Quickbeam

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jun 19, 2001
Messages
4,329
Location
FlashlightReviews.com
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

gebaltzell,

[ QUOTE ]
Quickbeams must of gotten bored early on since his points, to some extent, are covered on my page.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I read the whole article, we just agree on several points. That's a good thing!

If you have an academic reference to your statement that red does bleach rhodopsin I would be very interested in seeing it. All of my past research indicated that red did not bleach rhodopsin. I've been out of the loop for a while, so if there was more recent formal research on the subject which refutes this information, I'd be grateful for a reference so I can go to the university and look up the papers. Thanks!
 

JJHitt

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 30, 2002
Messages
356
Location
Houston, TX
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Comment/Question to all: most of the discussions on night vision concentrate on the back of the eye (the rods and cones). What about the iris at the front of the eye? What triggers it's contracting when light gets brighter? What's the mechanism involved and does color play a role here as well?
 

gwbaltzell

Enlightened
Joined
Dec 8, 2003
Messages
578
Location
StL MO
Re: True Red-Arc AAA vs CMG Infinity as cockpit li

Took me awhile to find one of them again but curve for rod spectural sensitivity can be found in "Advances in Photoreception: Proceedings of a Symposium on Frontiers of Visual Science" (1990) the chap. "Photosensitivity of Primate Photoreceptors" by Julie L. Schnapf page 34

The question about the iris reminds me that I recently read that this is controlled by the cones even at levels were the rhodopsin was thought to be fully bleached. Unfortunately I didn't bookmark it. Did anyone else see it?
 
Top