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Thread: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

  1. #31

    Default LED lumens vs metal halide lumens

    Yes, thats true but Ill be able to replicate sunrise and sunset with the actinics. I can always change one of the actinics to a daylight when the halide bulb burns out. Can anyone list some pros and cons of each set up?

  2. #32

    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    LED has been much cheaper than before, and I believe that you can find this solution now ok, you can find quite a lot of such light in Amazon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Number21 View Post
    I have a big shop with 400 watt metal halide light fixtures. There are currently 4 of them but I need 8-10 total. Of course, the problem with that is I would be burning 3200+ watts.

    I've been looking into LED replacements, or converting some older fixtures to LED. All the conversions I can find claim a 100-120 watt LED with less than 12,000 lumens is a replacement for a 400 watt metal halide with 36,000 lumens.

    Is that just because more of the light is lost in the reflector with the big MH bulb? Would they actually put the same amount of lumens on the floor? Here is an example:


    I know they won't be cheap but if I could do the same with 120 watts as 400 watts I would save about $0.25 per hour in electricity!

  3. #33

    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by beatus View Post
    LED has been much cheaper than before, and I believe that you can find this solution now ok, you can find quite a lot of such light in Amazon.
    I just remodify my garage and need the 400 watt metal halide LED replacement kit. I always heard that metal halide has lower lumen because of its lower lighting efficiency. After the google search, I eventually have these two alternatives:

    https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4...h-and-low-bay/

    http://www.ledsmaster.com/400-Watt-Metal-Halide-LED-Replacement-298.html

    Lunera is seems a well-known brand, however I don't know how to select the number of the LED replacement kit for 400W MH.. any ideas?

  4. #34
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by JacksonXI View Post
    I just remodify my garage and need the 400 watt metal halide LED replacement kit. I always heard that metal halide has lower lumen because of its lower lighting efficiency. After the google search, I eventually have these two alternatives:

    https://www.1000bulbs.com/category/4...h-and-low-bay/

    http://www.ledsmaster.com/400-Watt-Metal-Halide-LED-Replacement-298.html

    Lunera is seems a well-known brand, however I don't know how to select the number of the LED replacement kit for 400W MH.. any ideas?
    15-16000 lumens is NOT a 400W MH replacement which will typically put 30,000+ lumens down. Even at end of life, it will still be 20,000+, and the LED does decay as well, so it will be 12,000 end of life. These are not equivalent. Optics can offer some improvement, but high bays tend to light wide areas with lots of overlap between lights so light is not "lost".

  5. #35
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanasisredna View Post
    15-16000 lumens is NOT a 400W MH replacement which will typically put 30,000+ lumens down. Even at end of life, it will still be 20,000+, and the LED does decay as well, so it will be 12,000 end of life. These are not equivalent. Optics can offer some improvement, but high bays tend to light wide areas with lots of overlap between lights so light is not "lost".
    I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

    [My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

    I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

    The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]
    Last edited by degarb; 12-09-2017 at 08:23 PM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  6. #36
    Flashaholic* FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by degarb View Post
    I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

    [My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

    I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

    The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]

    CRI has been my biggest motivation to stick with my MH lights in work areas. i have 90 cri 100w CMH over my 2 work areas (house and garage) and three 400w MH as main lighting in my garage (1 1/2 car). i have 2 100w incan (due to be replaced with LED asap) as my standard lighting for quick work but CRI is a major factor in any of my "work" lighting. and always will be. as soon as i can get +120lm/w AND +93-97 cri at an affordable price as well as long lasting components... i'm gonna bite, until then, i'll work with tried and true lighting like MH.
    I Got tired of looking for the light at the end of the tunnel so i lit that bitch up myself! Convoy s2 365nm, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, Amondotech n30, vss-3A, Reylight Ti Lan v3, Helius Sigma 9, astrolux s41 219, Shadow JM35, BLF GT,

  7. #37
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by degarb View Post
    I think companies want to sell stuff (unnecessary upgrades) , just to be selling something. Cree is just breaking lpw on the big stuff to allow end lamp level efficiency to beat the MH. And still, the led lamps aren't getting the output possible with MH (110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.

    [My 500 watt led isn't any where as bright as my 400watt MH. Probably 30,000 lumens v. 42000. However, I don't run thousands of hours, and for my purpose, the extra lumens are worth price of a bulb. Also, the led lamp seller lies about it doing 50,000 lumens. Color rendering is way worse than the MH.

    I am looking forward to the day when I can reasonably buy a 80k + lumen lamp that will beat a 600w or 1000w MH for lamp level efficiency, and overall massive lumens.

    The local hardware and paint store installed some kick butt parking lot led lights, with good color rendering and excellent brightness, just a few months ago. I wonder if bulb or lamp theft will ever be a problem. Hope they don't disappear one evening :-]

    LED efficiency is way past MH efficiency. 150LPW at the LED at reasonable drive currents and 80CRI is common place and at the big OEM level, $0.50/1000 lumens. That efficiency is well beyond any MH lamp, and when you take into account lumen maintenance and light output after even 4-5000 hours, it's not even close.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    The high CRI MH bulbs are mostly in the 90-95LPW range (or less). Options for 90CRI over 250W are few these days.

    LEDs are still a bit pricy, but you can buy and LED, quantity 1, 25000 lumens, >100 LPW, 90CRI from Digikey for $30. That is very competitive with MH and it will have far less light drop-off.

  9. #39
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by degarb View Post
    110-130k lumens from 1000w, lamp level after losses. ) Cooling. Then there is the cost issue, which cannot be overcome by cheap Chinese knock-off. Breaking the 200 lpw, to reduce heat sink cost, would help, immensely.
    Not many are over 120K lumens, at that is at the bulb level before losses. MH fixtures are generally less efficient than LED fixtures.

  10. #40
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    Lightbulb Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by Number21 View Post
    I have a big shop with 400 watt metal halide light fixtures.
    There are currently 4 of them but I need 8-10 total. Of course, the problem with that is I would be burning 3200+ watts.

    I've been looking into LED replacements, or converting some older fixtures to LED.
    All the conversions I can find claim a 100-120 watt LED with less than 12,000 lumens is a replacement for a 400 watt metal halide with 36,000 lumens.

    Is that just because more of the light is lost in the reflector with the big MH bulb? Would they actually put the same amount of lumens on the floor? Here is an example:
    myledlightingguide.com/120W_LED_Retro_Unit___12000_Lumens-details.aspx

    I know they won't be cheap but if I could do the same with 120 watts as 400 watts I would save about $0.25 per hour in electricity!
    With 120lm/W you would need a 300W LED floodlight. But only if the beam angle and light distribution is the same.
    But you would get a much better color rendering. And instant light without 5min of heating up time.
    That's the current state of the art technology with the best quality available on the market:
    https://www.ledvance.com/products/pr...-bay/index.jsp
    https://www.ledvance.com/products/lu...-led/index.jsp

    Quote Originally Posted by Number21 View Post
    That is only an example.
    I just want to know how many watts of LED is actually equivalent to metal halide?
    On paper they are both right around 90lm/w, but that doesn't tell the whole story...
    You have to calculate in lumens, not electric power. Power don't say how much luminous flux a light does create.


    Quote Originally Posted by Number21 View Post
    The area to light is 30x80. The lights are roughly 20 feet off the floor. The ceiling above it does not reflect light, because it is 45' to top. The walls don't reflect light either, there are 10x80 unlit storage areas on both sides. (spill from the main area lights this) The 4 fixtures I have are not close to enough.

    I won't be buying any fixtures. To buy (2) 100w LEDs, for example, and install them myself would be very cheap. If it provides a comparable amount of light. If I needed 400w for the same light, then it wouldn't be worth the trouble to gain a few lumens/watt in efficiency.

    Being able to save whole kilowatts here is a big big deal.
    30x80m are 2400m˛. So 36000lm can create a illuminance of 15lx (with optimum beam angle).
    An subway track in london has 150lx.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux#Illuminance

    To reach 150lx you would need at least 360000lm (would draw 3000W / 3kW).


    Quote Originally Posted by Number21 View Post
    Looking at how incredibly cheap the chinese LEDs can be I think I'm just going to buy a few in different wattages and see how they perform. Would it be very efficient to simply mount the LEDs flat with no optics/reflectors for flood lighting?
    For a single 22000lm LED chip you have to pay $450, if you want a CRI better than 65.
    store.yujiintl.com/collections/frontpage/products/bc-series-high-cri-high-power-cob-led-5600k-bc270h-unit-1pcs

  11. #41
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by angerdan View Post
    30x80m are 2400m˛. So 36000lm can create a illuminance of 15lx (with optimum beam angle).
    An subway track in london has 150lx.
    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lux#Illuminance

    To reach 150lx you would need at least 360000lm (would draw 3000W / 3kW).
    Given that all other measurements the post you cited expressed explicitly are in feet, I believe you're off roughly an order of magnitude high using square meters. It's more like 223 square meters.

    EDIT: We're also four years on since the OP last participated in this thread.
    Last edited by idleprocess; 12-23-2017 at 05:45 PM.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  12. #42
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanasisredna View Post
    Not many are over 120K lumens, at that is at the bulb level before losses. MH fixtures are generally less efficient than LED fixtures.
    Electronic ballasts are more efficient than magnetic. http://vi.raptor.ebaydesc.com/ws/eBa...11602000&ver=0 Can easily put out 120k lumen, lamp level (claiming 140k lumen, probably 110K protected) 14k lux at 5'8" (do math for candela, nearly 13k x4, typically 4k lux for a good sized wall in the field. ) . Using only 1000 watts. For work application, $200, works great. Before, I used a wall of lights, with lesser results.... For led, you have ac dc loss, huge heat sink loss, price barriers to be broken. The other factor to keep in mind is that inside v. Outside, are completely different animals to light up. Photons inside do not commonly get instantly absorbed, rather bounce around, raising lux to surprising levels, beyond predictable candela rating. Outside, yes, usually, only lux matters. For example, at Sherwin Williams, where we do color matches, it is clear the led tube retrofit is a downgrade that is hard to finger. The engineers only took lux and cri into consideration, forgetting the rest of the photon story after the first bounce-lower lumens, lower worker and shopper light induced alertness, due to lower store lumen level.

    Show me a $200ish led light with over 100K lumens, a good form factor, and I will buy. Though I paid only $140 for my second 1000W 120k lumen MH on ebay.
    After owning this light and struggling with sub 80k lumen setups, I now know how much light we need. Though, will always be flexible for a small, convenient form factor, or cheap price tag (my 500 watt smd based led light, claiming 50k lumens-30k in reality, is worth $50,but I overpaid $100 on ebay, because of led buyer excitement. My generic 50 watt cob burned out after 2 dozen hours, had to solder in a 100w cob, so far underdriven has worked well-so I don't trust ratings on generic led cob emitters, but dang, so cheap, it is nearly impossible to avoid. )... The 250 watt led 70 deg ,claiming 30k lumen spot for $160 is exciting, until I remember testing my 24K lumen Tota against my 1000W Mh, and seeing no contest. Also, 4x, per data sheet, at $160 a pop, with roughly same efficiency as mh. Nonetheless, exciting to see gaining ground. Just reminding, that, ain't there :yet. But wait 2-4 years, at $50 for 30k lumens, will be there to match my 1000W mh. Though, right now, the target is the lower hanging fruit, the lower low and output of the common 400 w mh, which is a light I own several, but never excited me. And I hate my 150 w MH, but tolerate it to light my garage,feeling it unfit for job use... Also, I would not take lightly that the led light is more suited than my indoor electronic ballasted mh outside in rain,buggy environment, and where only candela and beam pattern matter. Though I do respect quality mh reflector v. A poorly designed one, like on my junkie $20 second hand 150w Lithuania mh,which retailed for a ripoff price.
    Last edited by degarb; 12-24-2017 at 12:23 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  13. #43

    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    The problem with high wattage MH is they create a lot of light and a lot of heat radiating from a small area, typically one square foot with fixture. While you can light a large area with that 1000watt halide for cheap the quality and distribution of light is *terrible*. This is why the only environments still using this type of lighting are parking lots, etc., basically where you want a lot of light for cheap and often to scare off thieves and give the impression of security.

    I'll illustrate this: if you have a 50x50' work area, and you were somebody working in that environment, would you rather have a single 1000watt blazing metal halide from a single point in the room, or lots of LED fixtures distributed around creating even light distribution? I dare say most people including OHSA would prefer the later. When you roll fixture efficiency into the equation, along with distributing light evenly to all work areas suddenly your lumen requirement drops to half if not more compared to that 400/1000watt discharge.

    Also, the industry is moving away from dense, high powered LED sources and more towards distributed, low powered LED; strips etc. The biggest reason is the later don't require heat sinks. Not sure what Degarb is working with (Ebay Chinese arrays I guess given 90% of what's being discussed in this thread *is* Ebay tech) but the Philips and Cree solutions I works with crush discharge in every dept. and I have no problems filling 10k ^ 2 feet with LED at high CRI levels. I can create a LED installation so that a customer can dial in their preferred color temp using simple dimmer controls (try that with MH), or schedule light levels and color temps, or put LEDs on a motion control and after down conversion I'm not dealing with lethal voltages and UV shields. Again, try that with MH.

    If you prefer pinpoint light sources to create obnoxious shadows and reduce worker productivity stick to MH.

  14. #44
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by chiller791 View Post
    Not sure what Degarb is working with (Ebay Chinese arrays I guess given 90% of what's being discussed in this thread *is* Ebay tech) but the Philips and Cree solutions I works with crush discharge in every dept. and I have no problems filling 10k ^ 2 feet with LED at high CRI levels. I can create a LED installation so that a customer can dial in their preferred color temp using simple dimmer controls (try that with MH), or schedule light levels and color temps, or put LEDs on a motion control and after down conversion I'm not dealing with lethal voltages and UV shields. Again, try that with MH.

    If you prefer pinpoint light sources to create obnoxious shadows and reduce worker productivity stick to MH.
    I believe that Degarb is doing construction jobsites where the lighting is by necessity both temporary and portable. As such, a couple of intense point sources supported by headlamps or task lights for workers may be all that's practical.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

  15. #45
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    You are correct Idle.

    I am not a city. Personal pocket.

    The lumen per dollar, when you really want 200,000 lumens per one 115volt circuit, didn't make sense with Cree last cob pricing.
    Plus, I am using winged mh reflectors that has a very satisfying light reflection and distribution, unlike the Lithuania parking light I bought.

    Wake me when you can get 120k (ansi lumens , not exaggerated lies, typical of China lights) lumens (under 1000 plug watts) for $150, including heatsink and power supply. Cri is over rated for eyeballs, not photography. I did extensive spectrometer tests last year. Made 2 pizza boxes with 150 over lapping color swatches of very slightly differing hues, in every color family. Cri had squat to do with color discrimination between hues for the eyeball. Luminance mattered. Sure cri mattered to the camera. For the eye, just a preference, largely. If anything, color is cri+gai+luminance-like the research of the last 3 decades showed. Cri is madness, an obsession by pale people to look healthier. In some cases high yields worse colors. Hopefully, the newer engineer standard TM 30 - 15, will end the cri madness. TM-30-15 is hardly memorable, and desperately needs better name, like XCRI, to catch on... Still, luminance is Huge to color perception for the eye. Huge!

    As a disclaimer, before someone jumps in, yes there are low cri light sources that may be so monochrome, shifted, whatever, that they are of little use. We can argue all year where the cut off, and why some lower cri look better than what ever. .. Cri is just a part of the equation. Unfortunately, an obsession
    Last edited by degarb; 02-11-2018 at 05:03 PM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  16. #46

    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by AnAppleSnail View Post
    It depends on your assumptions. An LED drops to 70% output in a few years. T5 florescent drops to 90% in about a year. Metal halide is somewhere in between.

    Does the LED distribute light better or worse? Does the relamp savings matter? Lumens are lumens, but LED gives you more options (CRI, CCT, beam pattern) at a higher cost. Right now it looks like, unless someone gives you a hefty discount on the fixtures, LEDs aren't it for high bay lighting. Maybe in three years, outside special cases.

    It's just power intensive to light a work floor. Some shop owners can skimp general lighting to focus on task lighting. What measurement says you need another 4-6 units? Where do you need what levels of brightness?
    but nowadays majority of led lighting has life span of 50000hours at L70, which may exceed a few years.

  17. #47
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by georges_devontae View Post
    but nowadays majority of led lighting has life span of 50000hours at L70, which may exceed a few years.
    That was true when that original comment was made almost 5 years ago. That 5 year old comment was not terribly accurate then, and definitely is not now.

  18. #48
    *Flashaholic* idleprocess's Avatar
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    Default Re: LED lumens vs metal halide lumens?

    Quote Originally Posted by ssanasisredna View Post
    That was true when that original comment was made almost 5 years ago. That 5 year old comment was not terribly accurate then, and definitely is not now.
    LED fixtures do seem to be suffering a similar fate to CFL: price-cutting at the expense of quality.
    I apologize that this letter is so long; I did not have time to write a short letter

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