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Thread: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

  1. #61

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Welcome to CPF, lagman!

    Quote Originally Posted by lagman View Post
    I find it very confusing that the 3.6V setting charges to 4.2V.
    It would be better if they had a 3.6V setting that charges to 4.1V and a 3.7V setting that charges to 4.2V.
    This mistake may cause people to charge old 3.6V batteries to 4.2V which is not good...
    There is no confusion or mistake here; just failing to understand the subject matter, and/or misreading the manual.

    3.6V refers to the nominal voltage of a Li-ion cell. Some (like IMR aka Li-Mn chemistry) have lower internal impedance than the common Li-Co, so will -on average- output a somewhat higher voltage during discharge. Hence they're often labeled with 3.7V (or even 3.8V?) as nominal voltage.

    Both these chemistries are charged up to 4.2V (so Li-Co and Li-Mn/IMR cells use the same setting). That is sort of an arbitrary value as well, which offers a good compromise between safety, utilizing capacity, and longevity of cells. 4.1V would work too.

    3.2 or 3.3V nominal voltage (3.6V charge voltage) is for LiFePO4 cells. And these days there are some cells that safely charge to a bit higher voltage (4.35V), hence a 3rd voltage setting.

  2. #62
    Flashaholic* mr.snakeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    delete
    Last edited by mr.snakeman; 05-25-2014 at 02:32 AM.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Thank you HKJ, appreciate your effort.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by RetroTechie View Post
    Welcome to CPF, lagman!


    There is no confusion or mistake here; just failing to understand the subject matter, and/or misreading the manual.

    3.6V refers to the nominal voltage of a Li-ion cell. Some (like IMR aka Li-Mn chemistry) have lower internal impedance than the common Li-Co, so will -on average- output a somewhat higher voltage during discharge. Hence they're often labeled with 3.7V (or even 3.8V?) as nominal voltage.

    Both these chemistries are charged up to 4.2V (so Li-Co and Li-Mn/IMR cells use the same setting). That is sort of an arbitrary value as well, which offers a good compromise between safety, utilizing capacity, and longevity of cells. 4.1V would work too.

    3.2 or 3.3V nominal voltage (3.6V charge voltage) is for LiFePO4 cells. And these days there are some cells that safely charge to a bit higher voltage (4.35V), hence a 3rd voltage setting.
    That's very interesting. I always heard that old li-ion cells labelled as 3.6V were charged at 4.1V and that you should never charge them in a 4.2V charger.

    After reading your reply I did some researches and didn't find any serious (other than forums) source that says that old li-ion were charged to 4.1V.

    Thanks, I learnt something.

  5. #65
    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by lagman View Post
    That's very interesting. I always heard that old li-ion cells labelled as 3.6V were charged at 4.1V and that you should never charge them in a 4.2V charger.

    After reading your reply I did some researches and didn't find any serious (other than forums) source that says that old li-ion were charged to 4.1V.

    Thanks, I learnt something.
    Define 'old'?

    I just yanked some Sony 2000mAh 18650 G4Ps with June 2002 date codes on them and they charge up fine to 4.20v. Those are 12 years old and they're still working reasonable well.

    Some manufacturers use 3.6v on their wrappers and some use 3.7v. If you're worried, try and find the data sheet for that particular battery.

    Suffice it to say, that in today's world, 3.6v and 3.7v are interchangeable and require a charger that can charge them up to 4.20v (+/- .05v) for proper charging.

    Chris
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  6. #66
    HKJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    At one time the 4.10 volt must have been the standard, because all hobby chargers uses 4.10 volt on the LiIon settings, but I have never seen a LiIon battery with 4.10 volt charge voltage (I started testing LiIon batteries in 2010).

    Today the 3.6/3.7 volt marking does not say anything about charge voltage, but is supposed to be the average voltage at some specified load.
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 1000 reviews of batteries, charges and other stuff.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    There is an example of a 3.6/4.1V battery on this page.
    Notice that it is written that 3.6V batteries should be charged to 4.1V... Which leads to confusion.
    I think it was about 10 years ago that batteries were charged to 4.1V... but I have no proof.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by lagman View Post
    There is an example of a 3.6/4.1V battery on this page.
    Notice that it is written that 3.6V batteries should be charged to 4.1V... Which leads to confusion.
    I think it was about 10 years ago that batteries were charged to 4.1V... but I have no proof.
    Thanks for the link.
    It does not really match hobby chargers, here Lithium polymer batteries are always 4.20 volt, it is only LiIon that is 4.10 volt (Today there is no real difference between them).
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 1000 reviews of batteries, charges and other stuff.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  9. #69
    Flashaholic* mr.snakeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    And what about the Tenergy batteries marked 3.0v.?

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.snakeman View Post
    And what about the Tenergy batteries marked 3.0v.?
    Sounds like RCR123 batteries, please read this: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...le-substitutes
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 1000 reviews of batteries, charges and other stuff.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Early attempts to provide a rechargeable lithium battery involved using lithium metal in the construction. These batteries had "safety problems" that rendered them unsuitable for general use.

    Around 1990 Sony pioneered a lithium rechargable battery that used lithium ions instead of lithium metal. These early batteries had a recommended maximum charge of 4.1 volts. Others made improvements on the electrode materials used and the maximum charge voltage was raised to 4.2 volts. Recently more improvements have been made and the charge voltage is now up to 4.35 volts.

    In 1993 the US Army ran some tests on the Sony Li-Ion batteries. The report can be viewed here.

    Of interest in the report are the results of charging to higher and lower voltages, the effects of storing batteries at full charge and elevated temperature, and note that the discharge curve is different from those observed with the batteries we are now using. The Sony batteries saw the voltage gradually drop off throughout the discharge and the cells we use now have a flat spot at what we call "nominal voltage."

    It is a very interesting report.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  12. #72
    Flashaholic* mr.snakeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by HKJ View Post
    Nope, not on your list, charger model: PH-123A-3.0A

  13. #73
    Flashaholic* mr.snakeman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by SilverFox View Post
    Early attempts to provide a rechargeable lithium battery involved using lithium metal in the construction. These batteries had "safety problems" that rendered them unsuitable for general use.

    Around 1990 Sony pioneered a lithium rechargable battery that used lithium ions instead of lithium metal. These early batteries had a recommended maximum charge of 4.1 volts. Others made improvements on the electrode materials used and the maximum charge voltage was raised to 4.2 volts. Recently more improvements have been made and the charge voltage is now up to 4.35 volts.

    In 1993 the US Army ran some tests on the Sony Li-Ion batteries. The report can be viewed here.

    Of interest in the report are the results of charging to higher and lower voltages, the effects of storing batteries at full charge and elevated temperature, and note that the discharge curve is different from those observed with the batteries we are now using. The Sony batteries saw the voltage gradually drop off throughout the discharge and the cells we use now have a flat spot at what we call "nominal voltage."

    It is a very interesting report.

    Tom
    The good old days.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by mr.snakeman View Post
    Nope, not on your list, charger model: PH-123A-3.0A
    I did not expect it to be on my list, but the articles explains the reason for batteries marked with 3 volt.
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 1000 reviews of batteries, charges and other stuff.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Silverfox: I'm unable to open that link. (timed out)

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Hello Lagman,

    Welcome to CPF.

    The link works fine for me but put

    ad a277 076

    into a search and you should come up with a pdf called Performance of the Sony Lithium-Ion Rechargeable Battery.

    Tom
    Behind every Great man there's always a woman rolling her eyes...

    Most batteries don't die - they are tortured to near death, then murdered...

  17. #77
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Thanks for the review HKJ, I just ordered my VP2 last night.

    Can't wait for it to arrive.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    The link works now... I guess the website was down for a few moments.
    Interesting PDF.

  19. #79
    Flashaholic* IsaacL's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Thanks for the all the effort and time you put into these reviews HKJ!

    I'm really enjoying my VP2 charger.
    "On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux."

  20. #80
    ven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Well i did not realise as i await my 4.35v cells that i have some already as freebies
    2x Genuine LG Chem ABC2 18650 2800 mAh Lithium-Ion Unprotected Cells
    Size : 18mm x 64.5mm
    Nominal
    Voltage : 3.8V
    Capacity : 2800mAh (2680mAh min.)

    Max. Charging Current : 2.7Amp (ambient temperature 25C)

    Max. Discharging Current : 5.4Amp
    (ambient temperature 25C)Color : Orange
    Charging metod : 4.35V
    CC-CV - this battery need to be charged with 4.35V - CV to full capacity
    Discharge Voltage : 2.75V (Cut off )

    Max. Weight
    : 48g
    Charging current : 1350mAh Standard , 2700mAh Rapid charge
    e
    Energy : 10.35 Wh
    Flat Top Button , High Energy density



    So just trying them out

  21. #81
    Flashaholic Richwouldnt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    My VP2 just arrived the other day and I have not even plugged it in yet. I have some of the LG cells that need it on the way along with a custom modded light for them. I do note that for it's size the charger body feels quite heavy. Apparently a lot inside of this one.

  22. #82

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Received mine few weeks ago, it works great. Charged some Sony laptop cells and new Panny 18650 PF. Bit a suprise how quick was charging on 1A ,me happy

  23. #83
    ven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Charging my 3.8v cells(4.35v) ICR 32A 6.4A


    Well i have decided i will use the 3 samsung cells as 6.4A 3200mah 4.35v should benefit me more in the tn35vn(being a 3 cell light) over the KeepPower IMR cells at 2100mah(30A rated).

    I see no difference with standard pany cells(none protected) so performance wise should be fine.

    Edit-Back to the IMR cells in my tn35vn as realised the extra free cell is 30A not 32A(3000mah and not 3200mah).
    Last edited by ven; 06-03-2014 at 03:13 AM. Reason: Update

  24. #84
    Flashaholic* RI Chevy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    What did they come off the charger at volt wise? Were you able to check them with a DMM?

  25. #85
    ven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Quote Originally Posted by RI Chevy View Post
    What did they come off the charger at volt wise? Were you able to check them with a DMM?
    Hi RI ,i never actaully checked, it showed 4.35v and bars solid so that was good enough for me. I can run down a cell(will be later on today in 12hrs time ish) and charge,test straight away off charger with MM for you if you want.

  26. #86
    Flashaholic* RI Chevy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Thank you. Do not do that for me. I was just curious to see what they were when they came off the charger using the 4.35v mode.

  27. #87

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2











    Last edited by gopajti; 06-11-2014 at 09:02 AM.

  28. #88

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    I tested my chargers (3pcs VP2) with 6pcs 18650 cell (Supbeam 2600mAh) start voltages was 6*3.77V (VP2 and cottonpickers voltage meter showed same voltage, so VP2 is very accurate!) I measured cells when charge was completed and voltages was 6*4.19V (after few hours rest time 6*4.18V), so I'm very satisfied. I highly recommend this charger.

    4.35V Samsung battery charged up 4.35V precisely (after few minutes measured 4.34V)

    + another small info, VP2 adapter cable length is ~96cm (37.8 in)
    Last edited by gopajti; 06-12-2014 at 02:20 PM.

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    Fantastic pics gopajti as always,the chargers/cells(what ever you take a pic of) look better than real life!!!
    Thank you for the info

  30. #90

    Default Re: Test/Review of Charger Xtar VP2

    thank you very much ven, more pics coming soon

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