Hi Power LED Flashlight - Your opinions would be greatly appreciated

knackers

Newly Enlightened
Joined
May 31, 2014
Messages
1
Hi everyone, my first post on Candle Power Forums.

My two business partners and myself currently design high powered LED architectural/architainment lighting, mainly in RGBW but also some white models.

We are looking at designing a high powered flashlight. Having many years experience with LED designs, we are amazed at some of the claims of LED flashlights, especially high powered flashlights over 4000 Lumens. If I may, I have some questions I'd like to ask and have your honest opinion. These questions are mainly for those who have high power flashlights, say 4000 + Lumens.


  • If left on full power for an extended period of time, is the casing too hot to touch?
  • Do you notice the light output dimming if left on high power for extended periods of time?
  • Do you believe the manufacturers claims of the Lumen output?
  • Do the batteries last the specified time?
  • If using a fixed lens or reflector, is your preference wide or narrow beam?
  • Would you find it useful to have a very detailed specification sheet to have a better understanding of the design? Example would be the battery charge and conditioner specifications (for internally charged batteries). Another example would be "how the Lumen output is calculated?
  • Would you purchase a flashlight that has an IP68 (waterproof) built in fan that would ensure the LED would always run at full power when required and would also keep the casing cool.
  • Would you be interested in a high end, 7500 Lumen flashlight with a 1 minute 10,000 Lumen burst mode?


I hope at least a few people can answer some of the questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jason
 

880arm

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
1,752
Location
Wildlands of Western Kentucky
:welcome: knackers

I'll take a shot at some of your questions, although admittedly I don't have a lot of experience with 4K+ lumen lights . . .


  • Too hot to touch? Depends upon the regulation strategy used. Some lights have programmed drops in output while others use active thermal management to regulate output so that everything inside (or on) the light doesn't get melted down. Most wouldn't be too hot to touch in the sense that a person would be burned but some may get hot enough to be uncomfortable.
  • Noticeable Dimming? Depends upon the regulation. Some of the step-downs aren't very noticeable while in use but are very obvious when using test equipment.
  • Trust manufacturers? Some, if they are truly rating their products in compliance with the ANSI FL1 Standard. However there are still a ton of lights with grossly overrated or blatantly misleading ratings.
  • Do the batteries last? As before, if they are truly tested according to ANSI FL1, then the results should be fairly repeatable. However, this does not mean they will provide their full output for the specified length of time (runtime is measured until 10% of initial) and may not take into account variables such as the effects of thermal regulation.
  • Wide or narrow? Generally my preference is for narrow beams from lower powered lights. With high-powered lights, my preference is for more of a balanced beam.
  • Detailed Specs? I would love them but they certainly aren't necessary. Be advised they would likely be scrutinized, picked apart and over analyzed beyond belief on here!
  • Fan cooling? Would be useful for some, while others may not appreciate the added weight, size, and battery drain. Would depend entirely upon how the light will be used.
  • 7500 lumens with 10K burst? Sure but not at the expense of actual practical usability. For example, if it required carrying around a car battery for power, it might not be so great for every day carry!

I guess it's the same with any electronic device, balancing power, efficiency and performance against cost, size, and weight always leads to compromises. Right now I have a hard time envisioning a true 7500 lumen light that is a reasonable size (for me) to carry and still provide a respectable amount of runtime. Not that I wouldn't like to see someone try it!
 

TEEJ

Flashaholic
Joined
Jan 12, 2012
Messages
7,490
Location
NJ
In addition to the above, I'd like to point out that the lights are not all the same, or, used for the same purposes....so expectations, and performance, differ widely.

For example, many professional mechanics have tools...but to ask the group if they prefer wide or narrow tools, etc, is going to get answers more reflective of how THEY use their wrenches, or screw drivers, etc.

So, many of us have wide beamed lights for when we need to see a lot of what's out there at a time, and tighter beams for when we need to project whatever lumens we have onto distant targets, or, to spot details without lighting up peripheral objects which can either annoy people who's windows are being lit up by a pizza guyy looking for address #'s, or a cop looking for perps in your hedges, etc....or, foliage or plumbing surrounding a tight line of sight, and so forth.

The lights used for certain tasks will tend to ideally have certain characteristics that facilitate those tasks.

If you fall into the trap of trying to "Make One Light That is Exactly What EVERYONE needs for ANY task", you will run up against things like UI preferences, beam pattern preferences, tint preferences, and even power source preferences....and so forth.

Example:


If you make a good UI for average pocket use, it will come on in low as the default. If its for tactical use, it must come on in max as the default.

If you make it programmable so you can CHANGE the defaults, the tactical guys will say its too complicated and therefore not to be trusted in tactical situations...and the casual users will sometimes be intrigued by it being programmable, but, primarily to make it NOT have tactical UI features when they program it.

Make it zoomable to it has both spot and flood beams, what people getting ONE light, and that's it, typically prefer, and it will tend to not have a good spot, or flood beams...and, to lose water proofing functionality, durability, etc....which means that one light is not particularly perfect at anything, and is less water resistant and less durable.

IE: The UI preferences for the two groups are more mutually exclusive than inclusive.


And so forth.

:D
 
Last edited:

idleprocess

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
7,197
Location
decamped
  • If left on full power for an extended period of time, is the casing too hot to touch?
    Short of making something that weighs 10 pounds with perfectly-designed radiating fins in an inconvenient shape, a near-inevitable aspect of a multi-thousand-lumen LED flashlight is a toasty housing after extended operation. Even smaller <1000lm flashlights get burn-inducing hot around the LED after a few minutes - it's simply par for the course.

  • Do you notice the light output dimming if left on high power for extended periods of time?
    This is also an inevitable consequence if the flashlight is multi-mode or will power the LED(s) for as long as the power source can supply current/voltage that the driver can work with. Ideally, this is handled somewhat gracefully via signalling to the user such as periodic blinks, step-downs, refusal to go into a higher output mode, or perhaps a separate indicator.

  • Do you believe the manufacturers claims of the Lumen output?
    No, they are generally outright lies, straight off the spec sheet for whatever LED(s) they used, or thumb-down-on-the-scale lab conditions numbers that you'll rarely experience due to less-than-fresh cells/less-than-ideal temperatures/contacts that have been exposed to oxygen/etc. Even the ANSI FL1 numbers are a bit suspect.

  • Do the batteries last the specified time?
    My usage is intermittent enough that I couldn't say. I've noticed that HID spotlights have some difficulty delivering on promised runtime when operated continuously, although that could be a consequence of using SLA batteries, whose performance is typically rated for discharge over ~30 hours rather than 1-2 hours.

  • If using a fixed lens or reflector, is your preference wide or narrow beam?
    For something as powerful as you are suggesting, I would prefer a flood since that's apt to be more useful day-to-day. I've played with HID spotlights on occasion, but something like this is more useful as a work light to me.

  • Would you find it useful to have a very detailed specification sheet to have a better understanding of the design? Example would be the battery charge and conditioner specifications (for internally charged batteries). Another example would be "how the Lumen output is calculated?
    My interest as a buyer is in useful facts:
    • How many lumens does it produce for how long on each of its levels?
    • What kind of light pattern does it produce? What kind of light intensity is this going to produce over its pattern at some useful distances?
    • What materials are used in its construction? What kind of reasonable environmental resistances does it offer?
    • What kind of batteries can I use with it? Primaries? Rechargeable? What kind of voltage/current demands must the batteries supply?
    • What accessories is it compatible with?
    • What are its intended applications? "Tactical" (for the love of all that's holy don't make this claim unless you've really put thought into this)? Area lighting? Spotlight? Task lighting? Photography? Underwater? Caving?
    • Any special operating considerations such as temperature, duration, orientation, cycling on/off?

  • Would you purchase a flashlight that has an IP68 (waterproof) built in fan that would ensure the LED would always run at full power when required and would also keep the casing cool.
    Eh, if you're moving heat around in something that's waterproof, I would think that something like heat pipes or other fluid heat transport would be more effective. Otherwise, IP68 is a nice feature that would be appreciated amongst the CPF demographic.

  • Would you be interested in a high end, 7500 Lumen flashlight with a 1 minute 10,000 Lumen burst mode?
    Not personally interested if it's "high end" with the attendant price although I suspect you'll find some takers nonetheless. Also, the jump from 7500 to 10,000 would not be all that spectacular due our non-linear perception of brighness. 5000 to 10,000 would be a noticeable incremental jump, but not perceived as double.



Another thing that comes to mind is the frustration of batteries. Integrated packs are annoying since you can run it until flat then it's out of action charging for who knows however many hours. Swappable proprietary cells/packs are a step up, but generally expensive enough to discourage extended use and not compatible with anything else. Clever use of commodity cells (such as the increasingly-ubiquitous 18650 cell for higher-end flashlights) may not net the OEM additional money via the sale of proprietary packs, but it does let the customer buy something with broad application and may help sales of the primary product.

Some of the higher-power multi-cell LED flashlights on the market presently grant the user some flexibility on battery configuration. This is often seen with 8x 123A / 4x 18650 arrangements where the light can run on a half (4x123A, 2x18650) or full (4x123A, 2x18650) bank of cells. The specifications for these units spell out the capabilities for both configurations as well as the greater strains on the half-bank loadout, which will likely run for less than half as long and may not run at full power with less-capable cells.

I'd really encourage you to look at using 18650 / 123A cells in a flexible arrangement so as to lower barrier to entry and let the user capitalize on accessories they may already have. If you're really clever and can design for use of AA NiMH cells (perhaps as a separate battery compartment/tube), that could also induce additional sales.
 
Last edited:

Poppy

Flashaholic
Joined
Dec 20, 2012
Messages
8,359
Location
Northern New Jersey
Jason, I am not as qualified to answer your questions as others, but I'll still try to help. Personally my highest lumen light is a Thrunite TN30 @ about 3000 lumens. It is a three 18650 battery, three emitter light.

Looking at the CREE datasheets, I'm guessing that to get the 7000-10000 lumens you'll be running a light with three MT-G2 emitters, and six 18650 cells. That'll be a large light, heat management will be a concern, a fan may be a good way to help keep the light smaller. I don't think running a fan will detriment the run-time too much.

If you have the experience that you claim to have, and you are amazed at some of the CLAIMS, then you should know that the CLAIMS are false. Also many claims are at the emitter, not actually out the front.

There are reviewers who do comparative testing and post their results. Including beam shots, lumen output, both in numbers, and run-time graphs, and cd.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?382796

Personally I don't have a need for such a high powered light, I almost never use my TN30.

Most if not all three emitter lights are more floody than throwy, but with the raw number of lumens output the flood can reach fairly far (that of course is a very very relative term.) You might design a reflector where you can get a lot of lux in a relatively large area.

Good luck, I hope I was helpful.

Hi everyone, my first post on Candle Power Forums.

My two business partners and myself currently design high powered LED architectural/architainment lighting, mainly in RGBW but also some white models.

We are looking at designing a high powered flashlight. Having many years experience with LED designs, we are amazed at some of the claims of LED flashlights, especially high powered flashlights over 4000 Lumens. If I may, I have some questions I'd like to ask and have your honest opinion. These questions are mainly for those who have high power flashlights, say 4000 + Lumens.


  • If left on full power for an extended period of time, is the casing too hot to touch?
  • Do you notice the light output dimming if left on high power for extended periods of time?
  • Do you believe the manufacturers claims of the Lumen output?
  • Do the batteries last the specified time?
  • If using a fixed lens or reflector, is your preference wide or narrow beam?
  • Would you find it useful to have a very detailed specification sheet to have a better understanding of the design? Example would be the battery charge and conditioner specifications (for internally charged batteries). Another example would be "how the Lumen output is calculated?
  • Would you purchase a flashlight that has an IP68 (waterproof) built in fan that would ensure the LED would always run at full power when required and would also keep the casing cool.
  • Would you be interested in a high end, 7500 Lumen flashlight with a 1 minute 10,000 Lumen burst mode?


I hope at least a few people can answer some of the questions, it would be greatly appreciated.

Regards,

Jason
 

KITROBASKIN

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 28, 2013
Messages
5,391
Location
New Mexico, USA
Dear knackers/Jason:

Perhaps we can get more information from you. Are you talking about making a half dozen or so or are you looking at substantial numbers? You mentioned high end. You might consider looking at what Vinh Nguyen is doing. He does impressive things, reworking chinese lights at a good price. The, now out of regular production, Deft X comes to mind as well.

After the switch failed on a ~600 lumen OLight I found CPF. The first torch I bought was a 3500 lumen, 4 XML, 4 18650 cell ; Nitecore TM26. It has a useful-for-navigating low setting, and an oled display of voltage and temperature, etc. plus internal charging. Including decent batteries, it cost ~$400. And you know what? I rarely use it now.

It is easier (and much lighter) for me to carry two, single 18650 torches. One for general use/navigating, and another for throw.

There are members here who collect powerful flashlights and what sounds like you are talking about would be more of a boutique type of product. Guessing that very few would be using what you are proposing as a often-used tool.

You could turn this post into a poll, maybe.

And while I am no expert, you have been getting input from some capable folks. Good Luck and keep us updated.
 

wjv

Enlightened
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Messages
962
I would recommend not getting caught up in the Lumens obsession. .

I'd rather have a good quality 800 lumen light with a LONG run time instead of a 4,000 lumen for 3 minutes light.

Just my opinion.
 

dss_777

Enlightened
Joined
Oct 31, 2004
Messages
900
Yeah I think we be talking to a bot

Or, maybe he has a real job that prevents him from hovering over the refresh button? ;)

I'd think alot of those questions could be answered just by spending a few hours reading multiple threads on this site. You know, doing the "R" in "R & D".

I was hoping he'd come back and tell us what's wrong with current flashlight design, coming from a different perspective in the LED tech world. The IP68 standard "active cooling fan" notion is a hint of out of the box thinking, that's for sure...
 

idleprocess

Flashaholic
Joined
Feb 29, 2004
Messages
7,197
Location
decamped
I would recommend not getting caught up in the Lumens obsession. .

I'd rather have a good quality 800 lumen light with a LONG run time instead of a 4,000 lumen for 3 minutes light.

Just my opinion.
Ah, but their expertise is said to be with high-powered architectural lighting, so perhaps they have something to offer in the multi-K lumen field whereas they would be at a loss in something closer to EDC-sized.
 
Top