Where do "real" Eneloops come from?

Rosoku Chikara

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There seems to be renewed interest in the question of who owns the Eneloop technology, and where Eneloop cells come from. I cannot speak to any new "Chinese" Eneloops, but I think I can shed some light on this matter. (I have looked into it quite a bit.)

The Sanyo Eneloops were developed in a manufacturing plant in Takasaki City, not so very far from my home in Japan. The plant was originally owned by Toshiba, and it possible (likely?) that some of the early basic research was conducted by Toshiba. The Toshiba Electric group sold off their NiMH battery business to the Sanyo Electric group in April, 2001, and "Sanyo Energy Takasaki Co., Ltd." was born. (It was renamed "Sanyo Energy Twicell Co., Ltd." in April, 2003.)

Up to this point, things are very clear. But, they get a bit murkier when Sanyo sells its "battery business" to Panasonic, in 2009. Fujitsu remains extremely tight-lipped about this matter, but it seems clear enough that, due to international anti-trust concerns, Panasonic was allowed to purchase the Eneloop brand, but not the technology. The technology (and manufacturing plant) were sold off to Fujitsu and "Sanyo Energy Twicell Co., Ltd." was renamed "FDK Twicell Co., Ltd." Fujitsu will not confirm or deny the fact that they manufacturer Eneloops for Panasonic (clearly, they have been asked not to talk about it), but I am increasingly convinced that this one Fujitsu manufacturing plant in Takasai City is the only source of "real" Eneloops cells in the world.

However, since Panasonic clearly owns the Eneloop brand and marketing rights, Panasonic can ask any battery manufacturer to make some cells called "Eneloop," and indeed they will be "genuine" Eneloops. Panasonic controls what the definition of an "Eneloop" is... So, if it says Panasonic on it, it is real enough. But, unless it is actually made by FDK in Takasaki City, I would say that it is highly unlikely that the technology is the same.

It is possible, however, that FDK could expand their capacity or attempt to lower costs by establishing another manufacturing plant overseas. If so, such cells might use the exact same technology as the Takasaki plant.

Also, bear in mind that FDK is free to sell cells to anyone else in the world, so long as they don't say "Eneloop" on them. And, indeed they have made some attempt to sell what (according to HKJ's recent review) appears to be cells that are exactly the same as latest generation Panasonic Eneloops, under they own FDK brand.
 
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mcnair55

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Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned.

As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.
 

Viking

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Hi Rosoku Chikara

That was pretty much the same conclusion I came to , by reading the very interesting other thread and the linked takeover agreement between FDK/Fujitsu and Sanyo.
The only thing that bothered me a little bit , was how could FDK/Fujitsu have obtained the rights to the technology , but not the important brand name it self. Although I believe that has been seen before.

But normally when you are buying a whole business you will get both.
And FDK/Fujitsu was buying the business , not just the plant ( automobile division excluded ).

But your information regarding anti-trust laws can be the reason for that.

Thanks for sharing.
 
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Rosoku Chikara

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...But normally when you are buying a whole business you will get both. And FDK/Fujitsu was buying the business , not just the plant...<snip>

I think Panasonic did indeed want "everything." But, then they would have controlled an enormous percentage of the world's NiMH production capacity. (At least at that time.) So, the entire deal between Sanyo and Panasonic was put at risk, until they figured out a solution to this anti-trust issue.

The apparent "solution" that they decided upon, was that they could skirt any anti-trust issues, if they didn't actually manufacture the Eneloop cells. So, they could own the extremely valuable Eneloop brand (at least valuable to those who know what Eneloops are) and potentially position themselves as the No.1 NiMH battery brand in the world, so long as they didn't actually own the plant itself.

Fujitsu apparently agreed to purchase the Takasaki plant from Sanyo prior to the Sanyo/Panasonic merger, and some kind of sales contract was entered into between Fujitsu and Panasonic for FDK to continue to supply Eneloops to Panasonic on an OEM basis after the merger.

I suspect Fujitsu has slowly grown weary of their "behind-the-scenes" role, and have become increasingly interested in the more lucrative business of selling cells that compete directly with Eneloops.

Unfortunately, Fujitsu is in a tough spot, because they appear to be bound by some kind of secrecy agreement which prevents them from simply telling everyone that they manufacture the Eneloop cells for Panasonic, and therefore making it clear that the other NiMH cells that they sell (FDK brand, and perhaps "Duraloops," etc.) are truly identical to the increasingly famous and popular Eneloop cells.
 
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18650

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Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned. As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.
So we've gone from "Moving plants/new owners does not change the process in any way what so ever." to "Who cares if it's true????"
 

Rosoku Chikara

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Please gentlemen, let's try to focus on the subject. I don't know what's been going on with these recent posts on this and related threads, but there may actually be a few people out there who are interested in knowing what can be known (at this point) about the Panasonic/Eneloop situation, and what it may mean for the future of the brand. Please try to maintain some decorum.
 

Richwouldnt

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Why oh why are people so concerned about who owns what who makes what.It does not matter to you me or the gate post.Industrial contracts between makers/designers are non of our business at all and no amount of conjecture will get you any nearer the contractual obligations between parties concerned.

As long as i can buy a decent Eneloop off the shelf and it gives me good service you can make it on Mars for all i care.You can also bench test all you want which to me is a total cop out as using in the field is the best test.

To me the question is how long can I get a true Eneloop and be sure what I am getting. After all lights like the Nitecore EAX Hammer are almost totally dependent on Eneloops or other very low internal resistance AA NiMH batteries. The only other viable choice would be Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells and who can afford those to feed a light like the Hammer? More and more 4AA and 8 AA cell high power lights out there that are pretty much designed to be run on Eneloops or equivalent NiMH batteries. And a lot of the competitors NiMH batteries are c*** compared to the Eneloops.
 

Etsu

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Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.

Guess I'll have to start looking for FDK cells, if your theory is true.
 

ACruceSalus

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Unfortunately, Fujitsu is in a tough spot, because they appear to be bound by some kind of secrecy agreement which prevents them from simply telling everyone that they manufacture the Eneloop cells for Panasonic, and therefore making it clear that the other NiMH cells that they sell (FDK brand, and perhaps "Duraloops," etc.) are truly identical to the increasingly famous and popular Eneloop cells.


First of all thank you for sharing your hard found information about the Eneloops. At the very least I find it interesting but it does get to the trustworthiness of a company.

When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop).

"The term "duraloop" (a CPF nickname, not an official name) refers to Duracell precharged cells (currently labeled "StayCharged") that are made in Japan and are white around the positive button just like Eneloops, and in fact are thought to be Eneloops re-badged as Duracells. Other Duracell precharged cells have a black top and are made in China, and are not called "duraloop." Duracell also makes non-LSD NiMH batteries (not marked precharged, usually 2450 or 2650 mAh) which may have a green top."

If so then I have some of these duraloop cells purchased about one month ago but they have black not white tops and they were made in Japan. I can't speak to their quality yet.
 

ChrisGarrett

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First of all thank you for sharing your hard found information about the Eneloops. At the very least I find it interesting but it does get to the trustworthiness of a company.

When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop).

"The term "duraloop" (a CPF nickname, not an official name) refers to Duracell precharged cells (currently labeled "StayCharged") that are made in Japan and are white around the positive button just like Eneloops, and in fact are thought to be Eneloops re-badged as Duracells. Other Duracell precharged cells have a black top and are made in China, and are not called "duraloop." Duracell also makes non-LSD NiMH batteries (not marked precharged, usually 2450 or 2650 mAh) which may have a green top."

If so then I have some of these duraloop cells purchased about one month ago but they have black not white tops and they were made in Japan. I can't speak to their quality yet.

Do you have the Ion Core 2400mAh Japanese made cells marketed by Duracell?

These are thought to be Eneloop XX/Pros.

500 cycles and C-9000ing in at about 2450mAh. You can find them at ChinaMart, Target and other places for about $11.00 per quad, so a great deal for us. I've got some that I'll be doing a 1 year discharge test on if I can wait that long, lol.

I think that after a Maha break-in, all eight of mine tested in at right at, or above, 2400mAh.

Black top piece, copper top, 'durablock,' green foil bottom wrapper, 2400mAh, made in Japan.

Chris
 

uk_caver

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Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.
How many normal people actually know much about Eneloops?

Are Panasonic really going to conspire to try and fool a market by lying about the specs of cells when that market is a fairly small one unusually likely to notice?
 

Poppy

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I think Panasonic did indeed want "everything." But, then they would have controlled an enormous percentage of the world's NiMH production capacity. (At least at that time.) So, the entire deal between Sanyo and Panasonic was put at risk, until they figured out a solution to this anti-trust issue.
<SNIP>

I suspect Fujitsu has slowly grown weary of their "behind-the-scenes" role, and have become increasingly interested in the more lucrative business of selling cells that compete directly with Eneloops.

Unfortunately, Fujitsu is in a tough spot, because they appear to be bound by some kind of secrecy agreement which prevents them from simply telling everyone that they manufacture the Eneloop cells for Panasonic, and therefore making it clear that the other NiMH cells that they sell (FDK brand, and perhaps "Duraloops," etc.) are truly identical to the increasingly famous and popular Eneloop cells.

Rosoku,
THANKYOU for your informative post.
Personally I am not married to any brand name. A year ago, I didn't know that there was a difference between one brand and another. Around here, up until last month, eneloops were not available locally, but I have been able to get Duracells made in Japan, and have been very happy, well at least when compared to the NiMH batteries of other manufacturers.

Joe Public, has never heard of eneloops. They have heard of energizer, duracell, and rayovac. If each of those brands could contract with FDK suddenly we wouldn't necessarily buy eneloop brand. Do we currently buy Xerox photocopy machines? Mine is a brother 3 in one, it probably has a cannon engine. My point being... if another battery functions as well as a current eneloop, and it is obtainable, I'll buy it.
 

Rosoku Chikara

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...Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants...<snip>

I think it is much too soon to jump to this conclusion. Panasonic might insist on the same (or better) quality as their current supplier. This Chinese plant might even be a new subsidiary of the current supplier. Let's wait and see what those Chinese cells look (perform) like.
 

Rosoku Chikara

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...When you speak about Duraloops are you referring to Duracell Rechargeable StayCharged cells (packaging labeled ION Core also) as stated in the "Flashlight Wiki" (http://flashlightwiki.com/Eneloop)...<snip>

I was intentionally vague, because I do not own any "Duraloops" and don't know anything about them, except what I have read on this forum.

I think it is highly possible, however, that some "good" Duraloops may come from the FDK Takasaki plant. It is the kind of business the FDK is actively seeking. However, as we have already seen, the FDK price is not very cheap. So, I guess many brands would prefer to seek a OEM supplier in China, even if there is some reduction in quality.
 
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gallon

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Rosoku Chikara, thank you for your timely and informative contribution.

I have a set of new Panasonic Eneloop AA's. These were ordered from Panasonic on Amazon. There is a set of photos of these that perhaps you can read for us. Is there anything interesting about the source of these? I cannot read where it should say the country of manufacture.

Pics on this thread, post #45.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...-from-Amazon&p=4385675&highlight=#post4385675

From what I think I am picking up from these discussions is that the new Chinese Eneloops will have the pronounced metallic blue Panasonic name on the battery. Whereas the Japanese Eneloops from the FDK line will still have the pronounced Eneloop name. This is a hypotheses, let's see if it holds true so that we can easily tell the origins.
 

mcnair55

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To me the question is how long can I get a true Eneloop and be sure what I am getting. After all lights like the Nitecore EAX Hammer are almost totally dependent on Eneloops or other very low internal resistance AA NiMH batteries. The only other viable choice would be Energizer Ultimate Lithium cells and who can afford those to feed a light like the Hammer? More and more 4AA and 8 AA cell high power lights out there that are pretty much designed to be run on Eneloops or equivalent NiMH batteries. And a lot of the competitors NiMH batteries are c*** compared to the Eneloops.

There are other good batteries out there Panasonic Evolta are causing me no problems neither are Duracell.

Unfortunately, the corporate practice of maximizing short-term profits at the expense of long-term profits is all too common. Sounds like Panasonic is going to leverage the quality Eneloop brand and use it to crank out mediocre batteries from Chinese plants. This will work for a few years, until people catch on that their new Eneloop cells are no better than other lower quality brands.

Guess I'll have to start looking for FDK cells, if your theory is true.

You are jumping to conclusions,brand names are priceless just ask the likes of Coca Cola etc.

How many normal people actually know much about Eneloops?

Are Panasonic really going to conspire to try and fool a market by lying about the specs of cells when that market is a fairly small one unusually likely to notice?

Of course they are not and once the China wage is getting to high these guys will set up in the next low wage economy like Africa for instance.Global village trading and it means nothing to me and you.Buy many famous name German electrical brands and read the label where they are made and not many say Germany.
 
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eaglemax

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Sound right man McNair55,I am work in GB as plenty of jobs because lazy GB workers prefer bottom sit.
 
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