what do I do With A short circuited Li Ion?

recDNA

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I had an ultrafire rcr123 protected li ion battery begin to overheat after I took it out of a flashlight. The battery was charged but the flashlight did not light. When I took the battery out it was hot and kept getting hotter so I put it in a cup of water and ran outside and put it on the driveway away from everything. I then remembered (I think in error) that water can make things worse so using a long pair of tongs I moved the battery to a bucket and covered it with sand. I brought it to the fire station hours later and they took it off of my hands.

I did a search on the internet. Some sites say I SHOULD have left it in water because these. Batteries can ignite even if buried providing their own oxygen. Other sites said do NOT use water it makes them explode. Some sites said only use class d fire extinguishers. Others said water is fine, won't put out the fire but will prevent it spreading.

So what SHOULD I have done with that short circuited battery? I know I was lucky it didn't vent in my face while putting it in water or taking it out but it's hard to think that fast when confronted with an unexpected hazardous situation like that.
 

StarHalo

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Toss it in the sand bucket and stand clear; I don't know that there's any kind of fire extinguishing method that does anything versus a venting battery, best to deal with it as you would a grenade.
 

recDNA

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So my sand bucket treatment WAS safer than in a bucket of water? I don't know if it vented because I left it out on the driveway overnight. I'm sure it did not explode because the bucket was undisturbed. I was not about to empty it to see what happened.

I wouldn't know what to do with a grenade either!
 

StarHalo

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There's not much to be done about the jet-flame that comes out of a shorting cell, the key is suppression of what that flame does to everything around it; a bucket of water technically would work except you could force a merely-warm cell to short that way, so sand is the safer bet. Anything that catches fire from the cell can be extinguished using any common method since there's nothing flammable coming out of the cell (airline flight attendants are advised in the event of a Li-ion fire to douse it with whatever is at hand; water, soda, champagne, etc,) it's just that the battery itself is going to keep burning no matter what, 1500 degrees, not to be toyed with.
 

recDNA

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It will still burn in a bucket of water?

My cell was hot enough to melt the label and just kept getting hotter so I assume it must have already shorted. Why else would it just keep getting hotter?
 
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StarHalo

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It will still burn in a bucket of water?

It'll still burn without oxygen. The water would prevent the cell from burning anything around it, but again, water could set off the reaction when it wouldn't have happened at all.

One a cell starts warming itself, best to dump the whys and wherefores and play it safe..
 

recDNA

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That's what I don't understand. The battery was getting hotter and hotter yet I don't think it exploded or burned at all. Maybe it vented under the sand without flame. I was positive it was going to blow.
 

StarHalo

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You'd know if it vented; there'd be welding-arc levels of flame and/or smoke belching like an extinguished fire. Not waiting to find out was the right thing to do though.
 

SilverFox

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Hello recDNA,

There is always the old standby of wet sand... Have a bucket of sand and then fill it with water. The water will cool things down which may or may not help.

Tom
 

AnAppleSnail

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There are some chemical reactions that are worsened with water, and some fire sources that just don't care about it.

Sodium metal is a common one - My dad once was playing with sodium metal in the dorm room. He dropped it down the sink. The roomie was only warned when Dad hit the deck - Boiling water and melted sodium all over the ceiling!

Sand is good because it contains burning things without burning - Usually. In some cases it will melt. Water in these ultra-hot situations can boil, which is dangerous. In general, if the water bath is much larger, you're safe - But in a hurry, ANYPLACE without more flammable things is a great place for a 'nonpassive end of life' event.

This Chemical Engineer's blog has an article: "Sand won't save you this time" talking about enthusiastically reactive chemicals.
 

recDNA

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Well as you know there is no lithium metal in a lithium ion battery so water shouldn't exacerbate the reaction as it would with sodium. I was just frustrated because I read a number of authoritative sources on the net and they all suggested entirely different courses of action from dumping water on it to only using a class d fire extinguisher. I still don't understand what prevented my battery, obviously short circuited because it kept getting hotter and hotter, from venting and or burning.
 

Illum

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well, if its a protected cell, then there's a metal strip from the side of the cell leading up to the anode connecting the PCB to the positive contact. The only thing preventing that strip from touching the cylinder body [cathode] is a small strip of kapton tape [at least with AW cells]. The strip is then secured down using shrink wrap.

My guess is somewhere along the lines the kapton tape was either compromised but in an area cross section so small its acting like a miniature resistor. The current passing across is small enough to prevent thermal runaway but it still creates heat gain. If the heat is not adequately dissipated it will go into thermal runaway.

All reputable Li-ion brands have a pressure seal integral with the manufacturing of the cell, until that seal ruptures [~15psi for CR123As, not sure about li-ion] the contents of the cell should remain waterproof. The only thing that water will damage is the protection PCB, which may cause it to short if impurities in your water precipitates on the PCB contacts. If the cell continues to put out heat but not venting, one possible method of temporary containment is a bucket with a running hose stuffed in it. Once the cell reaches depletion, the heat should start tapering off. Sand is preferred because its nonreactive, but sand's insulating properties will cause the cell to overheat and likely vent quickly.

Can't say for sure about li-ion, but several of my cr123As ended up in a lake [along with their owner who got kicked in wearing full gear :ohgeez:] and still worked flawlessly during a camping trip.

Scary :eek:oo:
 
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Traxxx

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I had an ultrafire rcr123 protected li ion battery begin to overheat after I took it out of a flashlight. The battery was charged but the flashlight did not light. When I took the battery out it was hot and kept getting hotter so I put it in a cup of water and ran outside and put it on the driveway away from everything. I then remembered (I think in error) that water can make things worse so using a long pair of tongs I moved the battery to a bucket and covered it with sand. I brought it to the fire station hours later and they took it off of my hands.

I did a search on the internet. Some sites say I SHOULD have left it in water because these. Batteries can ignite even if buried providing their own oxygen. Other sites said do NOT use water it makes them explode. Some sites said only use class d fire extinguishers. Others said water is fine, won't put out the fire but will prevent it spreading.

So what SHOULD I have done with that short circuited battery? I know I was lucky it didn't vent in my face while putting it in water or taking it out but it's hard to think that fast when confronted with an unexpected hazardous situation like that.


-personally, I would trash it in an open area clear from any near combustible materials. And, never use the same battery again.
 

ScottJD

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I know this is an old thread and I'm new to the board. But I would consider yourself lucky it didn't blow when you were reaching in the glass. A few videos on you tube with show you how some of these batteries can blow, and the glass could have been additional shrapnel. Once it was in the glass I would have walked away.

i have a Logitech one remote that uses a Li-Ion battery. Not sure what went wrong but my girlfriend unplugged the charger it and forgot to plug it back in. We don't use it anymore. She plugged it back in a few weeks later and I can only asume it does not have an over discharge cuicuit protection so she started charging an over drained battery. I smelt something burning and realized it was coming from the remote. The battery was hot a swelled so it was not coming out of the remote. My solution was to run it out back to the fire pit and leave it with pit lid on. A charcole BBQ would also work. Just contain it in something that fire would not affect made of hard steal to contain any possable blast.

I also race RC and own a few multi cell LiPo packs. They make special charging bags that can contain the flame and explosion if a pack was to be charging while damaged. I have a few of these bags and leave one in plain site next to the extinguisher if something may happen in the future. I've never had a LiPo issue yet but I have had a few Li-Ion cells get hot, even a NiMH back in the day and these were all bought locally from major retailers before I started using ebay or Amazon with all the fakes and forges.
and I personaly would never use Li-Ion in a multicell flashlight, but that's just me. I do use them in single cell lights and only protected cuircuts that I've tested to make sure the cuicut really cuts off. I've had one battery that must have had a bad cuicuit that didn't cut off so I recycled it. So you may want to test the claimed circuits also. First thing I did when I got my new SC52W was put an unprotected battery in to cell if the light did really cut off at 2.8V when using Li-Ion cells. The answer was yes, so I kept it. I only run it with protected cells and call me paranoid but the flashlight cut off is a backup incase the protected cuicuit cell fails.
Can't be to safe, it's my EDC in my front pocket, need I say more?

Last idea for hot cells. Old metal ammo storage cases. Some I know have modded these for charging safety also by cutting a small whole and rubber garment so the charging wires to the cradle or Extention cord does not get cut. They are strong a contain a blast and flames good.
 
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datagutten

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I am doing RC racing too, and on the track we got a bucket of sand in case of LiPo fire.
 

CuriousOne

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I've once shorted protected Trustfire 14500 cell. The protection PCB went too hot, and the metal strip connecting pcb to positive end become hot red and melted. Cell was alive and no signs of damage, but I've discarded it anyways.
 
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