luxeon flashlight concerns

i've been surprised with the amount of new luxeon lights showing up on ebay and other places lately. most of them appear to be cheap lights (sometimes knockoffs) made in china.

while i'm happy at the increased availabity of these, i'm also concerned that some of those manufacturers aren't taking design concerns as seriously as they should.
all of us know we can trust companies like arc, surefire, elektrolumens, streamlight and others to take their time and produce a good quality light that is well engineered and should last a long, long time. when i hear that streamlight is producing a new led light, i think "yay!", i'm not too worried, because i know that they will do what it takes to ensure that the electronics are decent, and that the led is heatsunk appropriately, not too much overdriven, etc.

what concerns me, is that some of the cheaper lights we've been seeing lately might not be engineered in a fasion to suit the consumer, but rather in a fashion to make the light for as cheap as possible and sell it.

most of these lights i've seen appear to be very attractive. a lot of them even look like they're knockoffs, sometimes even knockoffs of mods created around here!
whenever i see one of these lights i get one or more of several reactions. "wow, that's purdy", "that's a clone /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif", "those claims are bogus! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif", "wow, that seems like a cheap price", etc.
personally, when i see an ad with an obviously exaggerated claim, i get very angry. even when i see more realistic claims i tend to be leery. when they say "5w led with 120lumens", i realize that they aren't measuring the ouput, they are just stating the typical lumen output of the led itself. this tends to get my angry also.
i have no desire to do business with any company being less than honest about their products, and i would hope that they get what's coming to them.
i wonder how many of these companies even know what they are talking about, or if they just throw something together and try to be honest about what they think the output might be. or even if they throw something together and blatantly lie about the specs. i have little tolerance for the former, and as to the latter, i would hope they get trampled by a heard of llamas.

another concern of mine is the engineering behind the light. many of the lights i've seen on ebay appear to be designed with one intent in mind: to look good enough to sell. i highly doubt that the elctronics are that good (even if there are any), or even if thermal issues are being adressed appropriately (in case you havn't noticed by now, thermal managment is a passion of mine). i've even heard of 1w leds running dd off of 2-123s!!!
certainly i wouldnt' expect them to be very waterproof, or have very good switches...

i guess i'm not really sure what i'm trying to say here, i suppose i just wanted to ramble out a few thoughts and concerns that i've had for a long time. whenever i see bogus claims or a light that looks like it hasn't been designed well i just get this icky feeling, like watching a guy on the corner of the street selling watches to pedestrians. i guess i just wanted to know if i'm alone in my thoughts. maybe i just felt like i needed to warn people about my concerns (i'm sure most here know more than enough to need me to warn them about my concerns anyway...)
maybe i'm overreacting here, maybe these lights are ok, and i'm just looking for problems where everything is peachy /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon3.gif

has anyone taken apart or examined some of the lowercost lights being sold on ebay and from places like goldengadgets? i'd be interested in hearing how well they are producing and packaging these things...
what's worse is i can't even buy one for modding purposes!
what fun is it to mod a light that's already a luxeon? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

sorry for the ramble, merry christmas /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Rothrandir,

Merry Christmas!

I agree and, sadly, even Streamlight's ratings are a bit over-rated. The TL-3 series LEDs appear to be, at least, but you can still count on the manufacturers you mentioned to deliver (and stand behind) quality products.

I must say that value for price, the 6LED UV flashlight from Golden Gadgets is a steal. But, I got two with bad switches. I made one work, sacrificing the other's switch. Sent the other one back and just heard there is a replacement in the mail to me. So GG really stands behind their product.

I wanted a UV light for a friend to look for cat urine around her house. I also gave her a Kodak 3MP digicam for the holidays, but I thought an Inova X5 UV would be a little much...so this filled the bill at the right price point.

Anyway, there is a place for cheaper lights--but not when you're using them for safety purposes. I mean, only my friend's nose will suffer if her UV light doesn't work. She has SL and UKE and ARC lights for serious work.

Cheers,

Richard

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Rothrandir said:
i guess i just wanted to know if i'm alone in my thoughts.

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Rothrandir:

You're not alone in your thoughts. I agree with you that one of the issues is that the manufacturers are aiming solely for the bottom line (which does make business sense, but not in the long run). In relation to possible thermal/switch/etc. issues, I would be worried if non-flashaholics bought these lights and figured that they could be stored for emergencies--but, when the time comes, perhaps the lights may not work as advertised.

you're right Roth, but that's how our world works. we know this from cheap incan lights already, and now it is time for the Luxeons to play their part in the cheapo-game.
this has two distinct advantages though:
1. when Luxeons become more common, they'll be cheaper, Lumileds will get richer and they might progress faster. good for us.
2. it adds to our feeling of superiority /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif and justifies the existence of CPF and our "mission" even more ...
wouldn't it be bad if those cheap lights were actually good? how could we justify an Arc or SF then? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif
bernhard

i guess it's nothing new, the same thing happens with every kind of product.

i just found my old edc knife today.
a couple months ago i bought a benchmade 730bt (i love it of course! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif )
anyway, about a week before this knife arrived, i lost my old one.
i just found it again today, and i'm amazed at how shizzity this thing is! it's horrible. i remember it was bad, but i dont' remember it being this bad...

we're all used to crappy $2 incandescant lights, but i guess just the fact that it's a luxeon now makes the whole issue seem a lot worse.
people think "i paid $30 for this thing and it sucks! it's supposed to be 100lumens and run for days on end and never need batteries. the switch doesn't even work!"
with todays and yesterdays cheap incandescants they were at least expecting that anyway...
i'm just afraid that these cheap lights will cause people to be wary of actual good luxeon lights, like the arc ls.

Sometimes I do give a thought about these things you stated too especially the when it concerns the heat when the LS operates. I haven't bought any of these light to try out myself but I hope to get one soon enough (perhaps a Nuwai).

Well Roth, Since you brought it up, I've noticed that people have problems with switches on their $150 flashlights too. It seems nobody has solved the switch problem.

In the past, knives and flashlights were really junk. I now have a relatively cheap Kershaw pocket knife which is really nice, sharp, and strong; and a Swiss Army Tool which is plenty strong and very useful. And my latest tool is an Arc LSL which has turned out to be much more useful than I expected it to be. You just don't realize how useful a good light can be until you have one handy all the time.

I agree totally roth.

90% of the led lights out there are just made for one thing, to cautch your eye, and make you think, ohhhh an LED light!

I can bet, that most arent caring about how the light performs, and especially not thermal considerations.

Like anything else, there is ALWAYS going to be the cheaper, less quality, mass produced versions for the general public. And the well made, higher priced, REAL lights, for ppl like us.

The bad thing is, the cheap ones degrade the better made lights, by giving LED lights a bad rep.

a bad reputation?
don't think so, it will just be obvious that LEDs are not all shiny gold but have drawbacks, too. those bad experiences will cool down the LED-hype, and that is a good thing IMHO. LEDs are not the ultimate lighting solution ... yet. we know that, and it is about time the general public learns that, too, so that all those exaggerated manufacturers claims will be proven wrong. IMHO the truth will attend to itself soon.
bernhard

Given the present trend in US manufacturing to outsource to the Far East, what's to stop a decent designer who knows how to design a flashlight from having it made overseas for less money?

Does anyone have a spreadsheet showing costs for a 5 watt flashlight, i.e., cost by component, that they would like to share? Of course, component costs alone are not the only expenses, but they would show how much might be saved if production is done overseas.

kiessling, i think that to some people, these lights could give luxeon lights as a whole a bad rep. certainly there are different kinds of consumers. one will think all luxeons suck, one will think all leds suck, one will think all 123 battery powered lights suck, one will think all silver lights suck, etc.
hopefully this won't have a bigger affect on the "larger picture", but who can say?

oeo, that is happening to some extent. streamlight makes some of their lights overseas, and they appear to be decent quality, well engineered, and fairly cheap.
personally i prefer amarican made goods when possible, but i do view streamlight as one of the "good guys".

component cost depends, and varies from light to light to brand to brand.
size, material, quantity, finishing options, part count, electronics, overhead, target market, etc. all things affect the price of a flashlight...

Kiessling,

Let me clearify.
I mean that, to a person that doesn know anything about LED light, buys on at wally world, its dim, and BLUE,, he thinks LEDs in general suck.

Now, if compared,, then the good led lights such as Arc will look FANTASTIC next to the cheapos.

But if that person never sees a good led light, and only sees junk in stores, he might think leds in general are crap.

A CNC machine on the beach in India can produce the same quality as a CNC machine running in Detriot. The design, implimentation, QC, raw materials and assembly will dictate the ultimate utility and functionality of the product. The big differences in cost and credibility will not be seen in a spread sheet of components. The *cost* of doing business is a much greater factor than many not familiar with the process would asume. I don't know how many times I have heard someone state, "Hell that's a $.20 part there". To which I respond, "OK, fine, I'll pay you 100 times what it's worth and buy 10 of them. Go on, make them!" Not once has my offer been taken up.

Roth has expressed his concerns here and his assesment is valid, for what ever it's worth. With the new computer aided technology in drawing and machining, parts can be made that ultimately imply a fit and function that may be furthest from the truth. An unqualified person or company can create great looking junk! My wife just came back from Hong Kong and as many of you know (I didn't) not only can you buy clones of all of the hot designer products and gadgets, you can even select an A, B or C grade of quality in the knock off!!?!?! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/icon15.gif

A local anodizer I work with recently laid off half his work force due to an increase in workman's comp that could ultimately put him out of business. An anodizer in China doesn't have the same workman's comp rates that manufacturers face here in the states. How about compliance with OSHA? How about products liability? How about the cost of a legit US warranty? Yeah, there's those wages and a bunch of other costs that might need to be included with the simple component costs.

In the spirit of Christmas, perhaps I should vacate the soap box now? /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif

/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif

Roth-

Your right, most stuff is junk and a waste of your money. I cringe when I hear somebody ask what is good and cheap?

The vast majority of the time you get what you pay for, you buy cheap you get junk.

Smart people know there is nothing wrong with buying something cheap. They understood from the beginning that's what they were getting.

It's the idiots who who think they are getting something for nothing and then complain about it that get my look of disgust. Wise up! There is a reason the best or better of any class of products cost money.

Once in a while a product will come out that are a much better value for the dollar than normal. I've never been much of a Streamlight fan, but I think they hit a home run with the Twin-task 2L! This light is the first thing I mention when a non-flashaholic asks for a recommendation!

So yea it gets my ire when I read these claims, but then I figure hey more good stuff for me, let these people buy crap.

GregR

Roth, jtice ... the same consumer you are talking about is the one who buys $2 incan lights, so these crappy LED lights do fit his buying habits perfectly. why should he be unhappy about them? he's used to that kind of crap, and maybe that's just what he needs?

do not get me wrong, I am a 100% quality guy and know I have to pay for that, but I have to accept that there are those who do not care about quality or plain simply state that in this area of their life quality is not required.
I am not defending those lights, I am just stating that what we see here is around us everytime and everywhere and nothing new at all.

think of cars, espresso machines, pens, computers, etc. ...

bernhard

Once in a while a product will come out that are a much better value for the dollar than normal. I've never been much of a Streamlight fan, but I think they hit a home run with the Twin-task 2L! This light is the first thing I mention when a non-flashaholic asks for a recommendation!
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I agree they are VERY good lights; made in exactly the same place we're talking about, CHINA.

It is a fact of life that the Chinese (and others) are perfectly capable, and most willing, to make what WE want, and that includes flashlights. We, also, WILL buy them, if the quality/price ratio tickles our buttons. This will continue, whether we like it or not.

Look at the toys/lights/bicycles/computer gadgets/whatever, that YOU had under your Christmas tree today. Made in ------, fill in the blanks.

McGizmo hit the nail on the head when he said that CNC machines don't give a damn in what country they are properly operated. We are paying the price for our welfare/social security/high priced health care/lawyer added costs/ etc., etc.

What's the answer ? You got me ! This will continue, I doubt the American worker wants to work for $ 0.30 per hour with no retirement or health benefits.

I am NOT saying this is a good thing, only that this is the road we are traveling.

You get what you pay for. Even still, some who aren't flashoholics who don't know better might buy a light they find to be "relatively expensive" only to find it's a piece of junk. Still, it's up to the consumer to make smart buying decisions. They wouldn't be making the lights if people weren't buying them.

It only 2 took cheap LED flashlights before I realized I had to go with high quality right away, so I bought an ARC LSL-S for $60 and won the luxeon lottery. Now I'm buying a user modified Arc LS that has a 3 Watt luxeon, fraen optic, and double the current draw.. can't wait to get it.

Too bad for those poor saps buying sub par flashlights... then again if you're buying a 5 watt luxeon that takes 123 batteries, you better know what you are doing to begin with.

I have to agree that Roth has brought up valid concerns. Price doesn't always reflect quality or lack thereof. If that were the case, then AMD processors would be junk, when in fact, they are superior in performance to the overpriced Intels.

CPF members are certainly not average consumers where flashlights are concerned. We tend to be very wary of the very things that Roth has brought up here.

Still, these cheap lights fill the average consumer market niche, even though they may not meet CPF quality standards.

i think buying a luxeon is he luck of the draw as i stated earler i dislike mine and mine has had some faverable reviews here. so i imagine the odds of geting a good one when ya pay less are even less

[ QUOTE ]
Kiessling said:
Roth, jtice ... the same consumer you are talking about is the one who buys $2 incan lights, so these crappy LED lights do fit his buying habits perfectly. why should he be unhappy about them? he's used to that kind of crap, and maybe that's just what he needs?
.....
think of cars, espresso machines, pens, computers, etc.

bernhard

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with Bernhard. There is always a cheaper alternative. There are always people who will go for it. It's true of practically every product made, and everyone knows it. People have enough sense (or should) to know they're not going to get a Mercedes for a Yugo price.