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Thread: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

  1. #4351
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaBene View Post
    Hi,

    I just found that average voltage is wrong (while charging). Upgrading FW from 1.11 to 1.13 didn't help.

    I've also an idea about a missing feature: what about implementing separate overcharging and overdischarging cut-off capacity values?
    It could be useful to store some batteries for long time: the user could set a C->D cycle to obtain a full charge followed by a partial/optimal discharge to prolong cell life...
    ......
    Thank You!
    Armando
    Actually for Lithium cells, the charger does have this feature. It is named Storage. It just is not implemented for NiMH. Probably because there is no industry recognized appropriate "storage" level for NiMH cells.

    There is probably history as to why no certification body figured one of these out. Until 2005 and Eneloop there was no Low Self Discharge NiMH and earlier cells all self-drained at a fantastic rate. As such there was no need to pre-drain them to a "storage" level. And for post LSD era cells they get hundreds of charges whether you fully charge them or don't. For NiMH Car batteries (note batteries not cells - Cells+Cells=Battery) - they attempt to keep their cells charged from 15 or 20 to 80 or 85% for maximum life, according to testing they have done.
    Last edited by Benediction; 01-19-2017 at 04:03 PM.

  2. #4352

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Benediction View Post
    Actually for Lithium cells, the charger does have this feature. It is named Storage. It just is not implemented for NiMH. Probably because there is no industry recognized appropriate "storage" level for NiMH cells.
    MC3000 Storage relies on voltage threshold. I was referring to charge (mAh) threshold. Because of pretty stable LiFePO cells voltage (except at extreme - high or low - SOC) storage, as implemented in MC3000, is useless for LiFePO...
    Last edited by ArmaBene; 01-19-2017 at 04:38 PM.

  3. #4353

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by ArmaBene View Post
    Because of pretty stable LiFePO cells voltage (except at extreme - high or low - SOC) storage, as implemented in MC3000, is useless for LiFePO...
    i won't argue your point, i am no battery expert. yes some mc3k operation mode seems unreasonable for example RAM Cycle (a RAM battery has 25 cycles to EOL so why would i want to cycle it?) or LiIo4.35 Refresh (Refresh is borrowed from NiCd isn't it) and maybe also LiFe Storage. i need to find out how many LiFe Storage tests sky had performed. we could also check what BU says on this topic.
    i never tested LiFe Storage myself because i don't have any LiFePO batteries.

    BU = BatteryUniversity.com

  4. #4354

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Even if I never used MC3k Storage on LiFePO, I see that default Storage on LiFePO makes use of Termination +Zero and -Zero and 3.30V as voltage...
    So I assume end of discharge is still voltage based and I won't use it.
    Anyway I'm convinced a dedicate discharge capacity cut value would be a nice feature: I would use it in D->C cycle mode (with small discharge capacity cut) on cells at unknown SOC in place of simple charge mode to exclude overcharge; I would use it in C->D cycle mode (with moderate discharge capacity cut) for storage purposes...

  5. #4355
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    wow ,145 pages, not posts , about a charger.
    and it still seems to be buggy ?
    looks nice and all, but think ill stick to my old school stuff.
    i got tired of reading, did they finally get it right ?

  6. #4356
    Flashaholic tjh's Avatar
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by hahoo View Post
    wow ,145 pages, not posts , about a charger.
    and it still seems to be buggy ?
    looks nice and all, but think ill stick to my old school stuff.
    i got tired of reading, did they finally get it right ?
    You've basically just said "I'm too lazy to read, so I'll just weigh in with my inaccurate, uneducated opinion and an irrelevant fact."

    Bravo! You're hoping for a medal? To wind us up? Or something else?

  7. #4357

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by hahoo View Post
    and it still seems to be buggy ?
    looks nice and all, but think ill stick to my old school stuff.
    i got tired of reading, did they finally get it right ?
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...=1#post5035648
    Last edited by kreisl; 01-21-2017 at 07:19 AM. Reason: some playing games omfg. i play games on MC3000 too, retro rocks!!

  8. #4358

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    RT....
    Last edited by tatasal; 01-21-2017 at 06:11 AM. Reason: Edited due to previous poster's penchant to post something uncalled for, then delete so as not to face the consequence

  9. #4359

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by hahoo View Post
    wow ,145 pages, not posts , about a charger.
    and it still seems to be buggy ?
    looks nice and all, but think ill stick to my old school stuff.
    i got tired of reading, did they finally get it right ?
    It is not buggy.
    If you're referring to my last "bug" report, I mean to point out, as already stated, that it's not a bug (as promptly confirmed also by email by SkyRC support).
    As for the 145 pages of posts... It's simply because the charger is extremely interesting. It's oriented to educated users who like a charger able to charge the cells as expected.
    I can't think about a better charger, except for an open source project supported/developed by active community. But this is a commercial charger and I see the development of the firmware is still active and it often takes into account users suggestions...

  10. #4360
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    How is it buggy?
    I put batteries in and charge them following a program. If something happens I don't like then I change a parameter of that program and then it behaves exactly how I want.
    I had a battery time out, I changed the time out value from 180 minutes to 240 minutes and viola - no more time outs before the battery finishes.

    I have an Xtar VC4, but it doesn't charge at up to 3A per channel, in fact it struggles to make 1A x 2 channels or 0.5A x 4 channels. If I want to charge my 32650 cells or my 5,200mAh 26650 cells then this SkyRC charger is the way to go.
    I have two iCharger hobby chargers, but they each have 1 channel and that means charging a bunch of cells takes a long time unless I set up parallel or serial charging which would mean I don't get to see what each individual cell is up to. I have a light that runs from 8 x 18650 IMR cells and I've just bought 6 x 32650 LiFePO4 cells for another light, it isn't unusual for me to have a few cells that I want to charge at once.

    The SkyRC charger takes a little to learn due to the amount of control it offers, but it seems to be the most capable charger for getting the job done.
    I like mine and it has so far worked flawlessly.
    So many lights, so little money (cause I spent it on lights). I'm not afraid of the dark, the dark is afraid of ME!

  11. #4361
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Add to my list of suggestions for 1.14 firmware - For Lithium the program allows Termination voltage and D.Reduce voltage both - for NiMH the charger only allows D.Reduce - I propose also allow Termination.V for NiMH advanced programs.
    For programming standpoint, this would seem to only require changing one flag in a data structure or one if/then statement.

  12. #4362

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Benediction View Post
    For Lithium the program allows Termination voltage and D.Reduce voltage both - for NiMH the charger only allows D.Reduce - I propose also allow Termination.V for NiMH advanced programs.
    i doht understand you


  13. #4363
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Just found my MC3000 has been on for a day and a half when it should have been off, The power was getting to the charger, I could see the display, Even though the switch is in the off position, I flipped the switch anyway back and forth and it would not switch off.

    I have 3 of these switches and 2 have broken already, I would advise you to buy the other version.



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  14. #4364
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    i doht understand you


    Ok...
    1. Choose a program - make the Type be LiIon
    2. Now scroll down down a few parameters
    3. There is a parameter named "TERMINATION" - which is - the final charging voltage to reach - while keeping the output voltage from the cell at a constant "TARGET VOLT"
    4. Next use up arrow again to change the Type to be NiMH
    5. Scroll down again a few parameters and there is no "TERMINATION"


    Is termination absolutely necessary for NiMH? Maybe not.
    Is there any electrical or programming reasonnot to just turn it on? I don't think so.

  15. #4365

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Benediction View Post
    Ok...
    1. Choose a program - make the Type be LiIon
    2. Now scroll down down a few parameters
    3. There is a parameter named "TERMINATION" - which is - the final charging voltage to reach - while keeping the output voltage from the cell at a constant "TARGET VOLT"
    4. Next use up arrow again to change the Type to be NiMH
    5. Scroll down again a few parameters and there is no "TERMINATION"


    Is termination absolutely necessary for NiMH? Maybe not.
    Is there any electrical or programming reasonnot to just turn it on? I don't think so.
    you presented some alternative facts. i like that. it expands the perception of what could be.
    but it is also the reason why i didn't understand you the first time

    truth to be told the option is about the amperage at the final minutes of LiIon charging, the CV-phase.

    NiMH charging has a CC-phase only, so the amperage is constant.

    erh how much of the manual did you read btw? please could you check again the explanations about TARGET VOLT and TERMINATION? otherwise we're at an impasse here

    If you want NiMH charging to TERMINATE at 1.47V, then set TARGET VOLT:1.47V . Done.

  16. #4366
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by TinderBox (UK) View Post
    Just found my MC3000 has been on for a day and a half when it should have been off, The power was getting to the charger, I could see the display, Even though the switch is in the off position, I flipped the switch anyway back and forth and it would not switch off.

    I have 3 of these switches and 2 have broken already, I would advise you to buy the other version.



    John.
    Sorry but it doesn't look like anyone is going to be buying the other (older) version any more. I tried to order it from 2 other Chinese sellers (who even had a pic of the other version in their add) in the last couple weeks and stated in the order comments that I only wanted the other version and even included a picture off it so I would be sure to get the right one. I said don't send it if it's not the one I want. They processed and shipped the order.

    Now I get a message from both of them saying the one I want and included a pic of is no longer available but don't worry they shipped the new latest version ( the one you say is defective and have a pic of in your post) and if there is a problem follow their warranty process.

    I would say the older/other and supposedly better version is not made any more and we are SOL. Now I have 2 more of the poor one on the way to go with the two I already have. To ad insult to injury the 2 on the way cost over $4 each when I only paid $1.30 each for the first two. At this point if you really want a switch on the MC3000 power supply use a power strip which everyone probably already has several of. Live and learn!

  17. #4367

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchmee View Post
    Now I get a message from both of them saying the one I want and included a pic of is no longer available but don't worry they shipped the new latest version ( the one you say is defective and have a pic of in your post) and if there is a problem follow their warranty process.
    AFAIK, there is no "warranty Process" At least not in the USA.

    That said,there are "some" sellers who do take that role upon themselves it seems.

    Has ANYONE in the USA sent their MC3000 back for warranty service?
    If so, please say how.

    Why doesn't SkyRC have a US based office for handling warranties?

    I want to buy one but have had too much defective product from SkyRC with no solid warranty availability (in the USA)

    My apologies in advance if I'm simply uninformed and there is an easy way to get warranty service.

  18. #4368
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 / CES 2016 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I just leave my mc3000 plugged in. That's why I put in the screensaver feature request.

  19. #4369
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Torchmee View Post
    Sorry but it doesn't look like anyone is going to be buying the other (older) version any more. I tried to order it from 2 other Chinese sellers (who even had a pic of the other version in their add) in the last couple weeks and stated in the order comments that I only wanted the other version and even included a picture off it so I would be sure to get the right one. I said don't send it if it's not the one I want. They processed and shipped the order.

    Now I get a message from both of them saying the one I want and included a pic of is no longer available but don't worry they shipped the new latest version ( the one you say is defective and have a pic of in your post) and if there is a problem follow their warranty process.

    I would say the older/other and supposedly better version is not made any more and we are SOL. Now I have 2 more of the poor one on the way to go with the two I already have. To ad insult to injury the 2 on the way cost over $4 each when I only paid $1.30 each for the first two. At this point if you really want a switch on the MC3000 power supply use a power strip which everyone probably already has several of. Live and learn!
    Hopefully it was a bad batch and you will not be affected.

    John
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  20. #4370
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by OttaMattaPia View Post
    AFAIK, there is no "warranty Process" At least not in the USA.

    That said,there are "some" sellers who do take that role upon themselves it seems.

    Has ANYONE in the USA sent their MC3000 back for warranty service?
    If so, please say how.

    Why doesn't SkyRC have a US based office for handling warranties?

    I want to buy one but have had too much defective product from SkyRC with no solid warranty availability (in the USA)

    My apologies in advance if I'm simply uninformed and there is an easy way to get warranty service.
    He was talking about the little switch addon, not the unit itself, in the post you quoted.
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  21. #4371
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by TinderBox (UK) View Post
    Hopefully it was a bad batch and you will not be affected.

    John
    Well at least now I'll have 3 backups!

    OttaMattapia. I think you might have thought I was talking about the MC3000 it's self. We were discussing a PS3 switch that is placed on the power supply to be able to turn it on and off without plugging and unplugging the cord. I've sent you a personal message, check your inbox.

  22. #4372
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    This has been mentioned on another post, but I can't find a good way to search for the wording in that post, and only to include this thread in the search...

    The MC3000 has performed a series of programs and has completed.
    There were multiple cycles in the programs.
    If you press the [#] button you can see the discharge values for each cycle + the final charge value.
    Either with PCLS or with DEX, connect a USB cable to the unit and gather the numerical results of all of those cycles from all 4 slots.
    Offer to show them in columns ala DEX [table] tab or just as a set of 4 columns of numbers. - Perhaps also gather the IR value.
    [Question is that IR value calculated only before the very first cycle, once?]

  23. #4373

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by Benediction View Post
    Offer to show them in columns ala DEX [table] tab or just as a set of 4 columns of numbers. - Perhaps also gather the IR value.
    [Question is that IR value calculated only before the very first cycle, once?]
    Yes DEX latest version gathers IR.
    AFAIK the IR is measured only once when start button is pressed either on the MC3000 or from DEX

  24. #4374
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    I am confused with some data which the display is showing
    I discharged a battery with 50 mA.
    It is shown
    time: 4:58:58
    Total: 1:17:23:30
    I thought till now that time is showing the time of the last cycle and total the sume of all cycles. But this was a pure discharge.
    The shown capacity is 2069 mAh - which means that with a 50 mA discharge the total time should be correct.
    Any ideas?

    I know that we talked here already shortly about the topic average voltage. We know that we can forget the results when charging is involved.
    But for discharging NiMH cells (down to 1.0V) the results seemed to be always pretty correct (0.003 V differences to my calculated values).
    But this time (I discharged alkaline to 0.7V) the shown average value is again pretty weird: 2069 mAh, 2546 mWh and an average voltage of 1.303 V?!
    It should be something around 1.23

    Edit:
    I did some more calculations. For the memory of the time a 16 Bit value seems to be used and so it is limited to 2^16 = 65536 seconds (which is more than 18 hours)
    Thats fine and explains the results.
    Last edited by DT123; 01-29-2017 at 02:13 AM.

  25. #4375

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Total: 1:17:23:30
    mc3k timer = 1:17:23:30
    nist time = 1:17:23:30
    dev time(after 1.2 days) = mc3k time - nist time = ~0s
    mc3k user-set current = 0.05A
    mc3k actual current(time) = ~50mA, i.e. accurate wrt dmm = 99.9% constant = NOT func(time)
    1:17:23:30 = 1d 17h 23min 30s = 1*24*3600+17*3600+23*60+30 = 149010 = 41.3916666h
    plausibility quick check calculation: 41.3916666h*50mA = 2069.58333333mAh
    mc3k displayed capacity = 2069mAh (no decimal shown due to limitation of LCD space)
    mc3k internal capacity calculation = 2069.x mAh (see decimal in pcls or dex), calculation done through real-time mathematical integral (integration) of the actual current

    . beauty . full .


    thanks for the ambitious data DT123 scnr

    To whom thinks that all this is selbstverstandlichkeit it is NOT! I've checked other chargers and charger-analyzers and their timers are a couple of seconds off after 1 hour already compared to nist time, which amounts to a couple of minutes off after 1 day, and neither is their discharge current accurate nor constant yet their firmware prolly does the calculation with the user-set current and hence assumes that the current be constant, basically doing the plausibility quick check calculation instead of solving the mathematical integral. That's fine wiv me, i have no plans to bad mouth inferior products and also proving my points. Most users don't know such technical details, ignorance is bliss, and they also don't care seems like and they simply move on. Heck they may not even understand what i've written in this very post. And heck again, i don't even understand most of what is posted in HKJ reviews lmao!

    The 16-bit limitation of TIME, i was not aware of it, i guess i never tested a 18hr long discharge routine? I can't remember. Or maybe i did, but then could have overlooked the TIME? At least TOTAL looks good. In SPV the CUT TIME is limited to 1440min iirc, that's like 24h afaik but it doesn't consume the full 16-bit because it increments in +1min, not +1s. I would need to investigate, test by myself, and then etc. I wouldn't mind reducing the CUT TIME to 18.0hrs lol. 6hrs of the 24h-testing day missing. Every man needs to get 6h sleep everyday, so that parameter range makes even sense biologically and anthropologically!!



    If Average Voltage calculation messes up in routines of 18hr+ duration, then i should list in de list. Even though it could be possible to expand the interface protocol to get past the 18hr limit (UNCONFIRMED), i wouldn't make the maker make it. It is up to them. Btw the Average Voltage was not my suggestion/implementation/idea anyway, i was surprised so see it in one of the FW updates between 1.03 and 1.10. Every China is now on CNY vacation 2-3 weeks anyway, so let's move on in the meantime.

    When i find more time, i will try to confirm the 18hr TIME and check how if affects Average Voltage. No problem. Thanks for the observation report, appreciated!!
    Last edited by kreisl; 01-29-2017 at 09:32 AM.

  26. #4376
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Without trawling through the many pages of this thread can I ask a few questions regarding this charger
    1. with 4 cells inserted what is the max charge current per cell
    2. with 4 cells inserted what is the max discharge current per cell
    3. can the charger fit 4 x 26650"s at the same time
    4. what is the max cell length the charger will fit
    Thanks in advance.

  27. #4377
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    mc3k internal capacity calculation = 2069.x mAh (see decimal in pcls or dex), calculation done through real-time mathematical integral (integration)


    I don't get it why for the calculation of the capacity any integral should be used.
    For calculating the energy - yes, certainly. But capacity?!
    The current is fix. Isn't it?

  28. #4378

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by DT123 View Post
    I don't get it why for the calculation of the capacity any integral should be used.
    For calculating the energy - yes, certainly. But capacity?!
    The current is fix. Isn't it?
    The charger goes easy on battery by ramping up the current from 0. During that phase the current is not fix. Due to that ramping the betrag of the quick-check calculated value should be minimally higher than the betrag of the value reported by dex. I have that theory.

    Also during LiIon Charge CV-phase the current decreases. Of course, in digital coding the integration is done "digital" too, meaning it is numerical mathematical integration and there is no analytical or symbolical integration performed. I forgot how fast clock speed which Hz frequency the numerical integrator uses per second in the calculation code, it is a firmware version thingy.

    Feel free to share your xlsx file where you logged or calculated or 1.303V or 1.23V or thanks

  29. #4379

    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Quote Originally Posted by bella-headlight View Post
    Without trawling through the many pages of this thread can I ask a few questions regarding this charger
    1. with 4 cells inserted what is the max charge current per cell
    2. with 4 cells inserted what is the max discharge current per cell
    3. can the charger fit 4 x 26650"s at the same time
    4. what is the max cell length the charger will fit
    Thanks in advance.
    all answered in the op afaik

    nm.

    here it goes:
    1. with 4 cells inserted the max charge current is 3.0A per cell, for a total of 12.0A so to speak. this is a clear answer.
    2. with 4 cells inserted the max discharge current per cell is 2.0A, if all 4 cells are NiMH or similar Ni-based BATT TYPE.
    with 4 cells inserted the max discharge current per cell is 1.0A, if all 4 cells are LiIon or similar Li-based BATT TYPE; the charger can discharge LiIon at 2.0A too, but this was not your question.
    3. yes, the charger can fit 4 x 26650's at the same time. It can even fit 2x26700+3x32700 at the same time. this is also a clear answer.
    4. the max cell length is about 73mm.

    You can check the op, the info is all there iirc. You can even click on the picture there
    Last edited by kreisl; 01-29-2017 at 09:36 AM.

  30. #4380
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    Default Re: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

    Thanks very much for the reply kreisl.

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