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Thread: SkyRC — IFA 2014 — MC3000 charger-analyzer

  1. #31

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    if you will - it be basically a hobby charger with 4 independent channels in an integrated battery tray
    I'm sold...

    No more "simulated" CC/CV, high termination, early termination, fake current value, extremely slow 0.3C rate, parasitic drain when not connected to power, overpriced... common problems among "high quality" li-ion chargers these days.

    But honetly all I want is a iCharge 106b+ with 6 adjustable slots


  2. #32

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubois View Post
    Will I be able to use it for data logging easily? Not that I do this at the moment, but if I'm going to invest in one of these beasts, that would seem to be something worth doing.
    I had forgotten to answer this question.
    Erh, yes the device has 2 USB sockets. One for general USB power output for charging your smartphone battery, and one for PC Link output (logging) and input (control).
    Again, at this point i don't know if the PC Link USB cable is packaged in the retail shipping unit but the PC Link software (WinXP or higher) will be 100% FREE .

    Firmwarez updating isn't necessarily done thru the PC Link software. The current updating format is a downloadable *.EXE-file which you fire up while the device is connected to your Win PC.

    So with the PC Link software you have control over the basic functions (load/set the MODE parameters, start/stop MODE or PROGRAM) and of course see everything running: automatic logging/graphing the main quantities such as voltage (with 3 decimals ), current, cell temperature, capacity, etc. The present version of the software is functional and stable but very basic and hopefully they continue to develop it into a full-fledged Win-software with Excel-export and looping of several MODES or PROGRAMS. iCharger's PC Link software is called LogView and is for logging only (not control) and made by German developer Dominik. There is some chance that in future Dominik's highly evolutionized Win-software will also support the device. LogView has already advanced logging features, Excel/HTML-export and so on.

    Bad news for Apple/Linux users: no computer link software for ya

    However, wireless cordless cable-free link is being developed, they're discussing either WiFi connection (to smartphone, not PC) or Bluetooth 4.0 connection (to smartphone). What would you guys prefer?

  3. #33
    Flashaholic* oKtosiTe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Picture or it didn't happen.

  4. #34

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by StandardBattery View Post
    why did you list Eneloop as a separate Chemistry from NiMH? Is the charge program any different for these LSD cells?
    No, the actual charging algorithm for BATT TYPE NiMH and BATT TYPE ENELOOP is the same, it is CC-charging (constant current) with PEAK SENS -dU/dt as main termination method.
    With BATT TYPE ENELOOP the author pays tribute to the revolutionary Sanyo-Panasonic battery, the most important and popular NiMH-based battery in today's modern world, where Mr.Ignoramus still wonders what kind of wonder battery type Eneloops are. Are they regular NiMH?, are they special NiMH?, are they a mixed NiMH-NiWhat, or are they something new on their own?

    The UI (user interface) for ENELOOP is slightly different, comes with optimized presets (still adjustable though), so the user is good to go after fewer button clicks.

    It also showcases that the maker would implement any new relevant battery type in a heartbeat. If the industry comes up with cylindrical LiPo or cylindrical Pb batteries, the user would see them implemented in the next firmware update.

  5. #35

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    This does give the charger some future-proof advantages. I suppose it's too early to have any final product release date?

    Not that I am impatient or anything, you understand lol.

  6. #36
    Unenlightened Chloe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Sounds like a really exciting charger! Any idea who the manufacturer is or release date?

  7. #37

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubois View Post
    I suppose it's too early to have any final product release date?
    i think we can agree that there is no need to be impatient. this whole development project is way too complex and important that one would want a rushed release. it's getting ~1.5 yrs which the maker spent behind closed doors on designing the PCB layout from scratch and reiterating the prototypes and early production samples numerous times in order to release a product which is mature from the IPO. On the IFA the booth staff may not announce anything aloud but let visitors know about an unofficial tentative date.

    so far i didn't hear anything concrete. No price. No date.


    Sounds like vaporware to me lol

  8. #38
    Flashaholic* oKtosiTe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    This ain't no vaporware.
    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    Sounds like vaporware to me

  9. #39

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by oKtosiTe View Post
    Sorry for your confusion.
    Clearly, it is no vaporware.
    Tomorrow is Friday, start of IFA: visitors can take photos, lay hands, play, ask and come back here and report about this new charger.

    i'll be damned if the product is not shown, presented or demo'ed there!

  10. #40
    Flashaholic* oKtosiTe's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    Sorry for your confusion.
    Clearly, it is no vaporware.
    Tomorrow is Friday, start of IFA: visitors can take photos, lay hands, play, ask and come back here and report about this new charger.

    i'll be damned if the product is not shown, presented or demo'ed there!
    Looking forward to it.
    Might be in the market for a new charger soon.

  11. #41
    Flashaholic* TweakMDS's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    So, it's friday, stuff opens at 9 normally, is anyone there?
    I have a bunch of chargers but none that are perfect. This looked promising enough to replace a drawer full of overly specialistic chargers / cables / plugs.
    I'm very curious about the form and size though, so pictures would be very welcome!

  12. #42

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    + 1

    have been following this thread too. now it's about time for some hard facts like photos, price, model name and designer's name!

  13. #43

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    CES is much more relevant for consumer electronics and appliances and the iPhone 6 will not be announced at IFA.
    Last edited by BrightLignt; 09-05-2014 at 08:51 AM.

  14. #44

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by TweakMDS View Post
    and size though, so
    Dimensions are (in mm), H×W×L: ~68.8 × ~124.0 × ~200.3
    Weight is (in grams): ~601 w/o adapter

    weight of BT-C3100: 230g w/o adapter

    For comparison, XTAR VP4 dimensions and weight unknown
    Last edited by kreisl; 09-11-2014 at 03:59 AM.

  15. #45

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    What is the maximum discharge rate, and does it matter how many batteries are loaded?

    Is logging every 1S, 2S...is the interval adjustable?

    Does it have 2 wire or 4 wire internal resistance testing?

    I'd like to see a storage mode.

    I'd also like to see more pronounced bumps on the positive contact point. The Opus barely works with some of the flat top batteries I've tested.

  16. #46
    Enlightened atbglenn's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Sounds very interesting. Problem is, I have way too many decent chargers. Oh hell, what's one more That said, I'm pretty excited about this one..

  17. #47

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by atbglenn View Post
    Sounds very interesting. Problem is, I have way too many decent chargers. Oh hell, what's one more That said, I'm pretty excited about this one..
    Same here, but I could use another good charger to charge my batteries between tests. Having another internal resistance tester is good too. That it can take 4*26650 is even better. That it can also log is fantastic. I wish I could get a review sample without actually having to do a regular test. Kreisler, you think adding its test results (IR & logs) in my battery tests would be enough??

  18. #48

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
    What is the maximum discharge rate, and does it matter how many batteries are loaded?

    Is logging every 1S, 2S...is the interval adjustable?

    Does it have 2 wire or 4 wire internal resistance testing?

    I'd like to see a storage mode.

    I'd also like to see more pronounced bumps on the positive contact point. The Opus barely works with some of the flat top batteries I've tested.
    Hello leaftye, hi Glenn

    Some good questions there:

    STORAGE MODE implementation in iCharger is §$%&!: when the cell voltage is say 4.2V and needs to get discharged at say -1.0A, iCharger does exactly that: a CC-discharge down to (system fixed!) 3.75V voltage under load, and as soon as it is reached, the MODE is terminated. Give the cell some rest, and its offline voltage will be back recovered to say 3.93V, which is a leap away from the desired 3.75V.

    STORAGE MODE in DC2 has some adjustable parameters which ensure that the offline cell voltage will be exactly say 3.78V as set and wished by the user.

    Logging of iCharger is every 2.0sec and cannot be adjusted. Logging of DC2 is every 1.0sec and no this interval cannot be adjusted either.

    It does not matter how many batteries are in the tray and what kind of different MODES they're under operation. No matter what, each slot can be independently discharged at a max. rate of -1.00A only. Thus the highest discharge power is only when (-1.00A*4)*4.40V= -17.6W. Dedicated balance chargers have 1 large loud fan mounted on cooling fins, similar to a PC CPU cooler, plus a metal housing to remove the heat of one single battery. Sure they can discharge a single battery at much higher rates. MH-C9000 max is (-1.0A*4)*1.5V= -6.0W. 6 Watts is not a challenge for DC2 but 18 Watts can become one, depending on the room temperature. The internal temperature (taken as average of 4 internal sensors) and the 4 battery temperatures are displayed on the LCD, very convenient and helpful.

    The positive contact points are a bit more pronounced than on the Opus and there is no issue with flat top batteries.

    2m wire internal resistance testing .. erh .. you got me there!!
    Last edited by kreisl; 09-05-2014 at 11:41 AM.

  19. #49

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    Hello leaftye,

    you have some good questions there:

    STORAGE MODE implementation in iCharger is §$%&!: when the cell voltage is say 4.2V and needs to get discharged at say -1.0A, iCharger does exactly that: a CC-discharge down to (system fixed!) 3.75V voltage under load, and as soon as it is reached, the MODE is terminated. Give the cell some rest, and its offline voltage will be back recovered to say 3.93V, which is a leap away from the desired 3.75V.

    STORAGE MODE in DC2 has some adjustable parameters which ensure that the offline cell voltage will be exactly say 3.78V as set and wished by the user.

    Logging of iCharger is every 2.0sec and cannot be adjusted. Logging of DC2 is every 1.0sec and this interval cannot be adjusted either.

    It does not matter how many batteries are in the tray and what kind of different MODES they're under operation. No matter what, each slot can be independently discharged at a max. rate of -1.00A only. Thus the highest discharge power is only when (-1.00A*4)*4.40V= -17.6W. Dedicated balance chargers have 1 large loud fan mounted on cooling fins, similar to a PC CPU cooler, plus a metal housing to remove the heat of one single battery. Sure they can discharge a single battery at much higher rates. MH-C9000 max is (-1.0A*4)*1.5V= -6.0W. 6 Watts is not a challenge for DC2 but 18 Watts can become one, depending on the room temperature. The internal temperature (taken as average of 4 internal sensors) and the 4 battery temperatures are displayed on the LCD, very convenient and helpful.

    The positive contact points are a bit more pronounced than on the Opus and there is no issue with flat top batteries.

    2m wire internal resistance testing .. erh .. you got me there!!

    I totally agree with your assessment of the storage mode function of the iCharger. I've given up on it. Now I slightly overcharge, then use nimh discharge to slowly (0.1A) get down to the desired storage level. Since I do that in multiple steps of decreasing current, it becomes a huge hassle. Having a smarter storage function would be very greatly appreciated.

    Logging every 2 seconds is totally acceptable since it only discharges at 1A. 1A discharge is about what I expect unless this is priced at the same level as the CBA IV. Discharging at +10A makes it nice to have smaller intervals, which makes the 2S intervals of the iCharger limited, but at least my dc load can do 1S intervals.

    4 wire internal resistance testing was a stretch. I'm not sure how that would be possible with adjustable battery bays, but I can dream, right?

    The rest sounds good. Unless there's some flaws getting in the way of that very nice feature list, this is going to be a very powerful tool for analyzing cylindrical lithium ion batteries.

  20. #50

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
    Kreisl**, you think adding its test results (IR & logs) in my battery tests would be enough??
    i know what you mean. instead of posting iCharger-produced data we could post DC2-produced test results, logs and internal resistance measurements in our battery tests? Well, by the time of its market release, DC2 reviewers should come to such conclusion yes. "enough" is not good enough, so the maker is on it to make it better than enough

  21. #51

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post

    i know what you mean. instead of posting iCharger-produced data we could post DC2-produced test results, logs and internal resistance measurements in our battery tests? Well, by the time of its market release, DC2 reviewers should come to such conclusion yes. "enough" is not good enough, so the maker is on it to make it better than enough
    I was thinking of including both sets of data so readers can compare the results so they can decide if it's to be trusted, or if the data is extremely accurate, it would validate my other tests. Anyhow, if that would help, then I'd be happy to do a little extra work to add those tests as one of the DC2 reviewers.

  22. #52
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    This just keeps getting better... I'm starting to worry about the price. VP2 is very good general user general purpose charger VP4 looks really good but it looks like they dropped they voltage selection switch which seems crazy to me... that's a great feature on the VP2 and some of the other recent XTAR chargers. I wonder if it was too confusing for the general buyer as I do see lots of messages from people wondering what position the switch should be set to.

    OK how come no pictures yet???

  23. #53

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    One more thing I'd like, and it's probably too late and expensive if this hasn't already been done, but I'd like some DEEP cutouts on the sides to make it easier to pull out the batteries. The Nitecore i4, Efest LUV V4 and Basen S2 aren't as deep as I'd like. The Opus BT-C3100 is okay, but even deeper would be better.

  24. #54

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by leaftye View Post
    but I'd like some DEEP cutouts on the sides to make it easier to pull out the batteries.
    the cutouts at the sides are deep and nice, and all other dimensions generous anyway, the slots are long, and it is easy enough (trust me!) to remove and insert M1&M4 and or M2&M3 in a 4x26650 full bay configuration. photos of the device can't do justice to the physicality, feel and build quality which are without exaggeration amazing and really impressive.

    1.5 years ago we set out for a dreamcharger not knowing what this could be in detail or conception and what kind of UI it could have. we looked at existing advanced chargers, Schulze, C9000, iCharger, Opus, Xtar, EBC-A, a.o. After 1 week the maker came up with a CAD drawing and proposed a simple yet effective UI. Over night the UI idea grew on me and then the day after i was convinced that this was it, the dreamcharger we were wishing for! 1.5yr later it's become reality and i *love* it.

    i sound partial so hopefully someone else can share his/her own impressions of it. no one gone to ifa?
    Last edited by kreisl; 09-20-2014 at 07:21 AM.

  25. #55
    Enlightened djozz's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    The kreisl still loves stretching the suspense ;-)
    Question: does this charger use pulse charging, like the Opus, or does it use constant current? I remember that HKJ was not really happy with the high voltages that the batteries receive by pulse-charging.

  26. #56

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    As any other hobby charger or balance charger on today's market, it uses tru constant current, no PWM pulse charging as BT-C3100 or MH-C9000 do. The constant current charging is especially tru for LiIon charging. For NiMH charging, note that iCharger and C9000 (C9000 be short for Maha Powerex MH-Whatalongname-C9000 WizardOne Charger-Analyzer) interrupt the charging every other moment, I=0.0A for 0.5-2sec, intermittently, because that's a recommended effective or healthy way of charging NiMH's. With a fast updating DMM I was able to verify such behavior on iCharger and C9000. C9000 FAQ states it too:
    Quote Originally Posted by C9000 FAQ
    Advanced Operations

    I multiplied the charging time by the current. The resulting capacity is not the same as the capacity on the screen. Is the charger faulty?

    No. The charging current displayed on the screen does not include a brief rest period (a fraction of a second every two seconds). Therefore, the actual charging current is about 90% of the displayed value.
    So the DC2 uses a similar 'non-PWM tru constant current with intermittent stops'-charging method for NiMH's and one can see it with the PC Link software. Experts in the industry may question (in general) and argue how often per minute the charging current should drop to zero amps and how long the brief rest period should be, and after endless discussions they may never come to an agreement or compromise. Batteryuniversity, a book product written by CADEX to indirectly promote their own charger-analyzers, shuts up on this very topic. Point is, whatever the frequency and duration of the short rest periods should be, the firmware could be easily updated to reflect the most recent state of research and knowledge in this field.

    What suspense? ( how am i doing? hehe ;-)

  27. #57
    Enlightened djozz's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    You're doing very well :-)
    Thanks for the clear answer.

  28. #58

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…


  29. #59

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by Dubois View Post
    click on pic


    photo credit © 2006 Donna L. Watkins - Squirrel Diving Into Popcorn

  30. #60

    Default Re: 2nd gen dreamcharger presented on IFA Berlin 2014…

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    As any other hobby charger or balance charger on today's market, it uses tru constant current, no PWM pulse charging as BT-C3100 or MH-C9000 do.
    There is this obscure battery technology from the early 90's called RAM, Rechargeable Alkaline Manganese dioxide cell chemistry by BTI Battery Technologies Inc Canada, as still seen on amazon in the licensed iGo Green and Pure Energy battery brands. Afaik the charging algorithm does not use constant current but a decreasing charge rate right off the start similar to the CV-phase of Li-Ion charging. The voltage may be held 1.65V constant if possible.

    I don't believe that any of us (still) uses iGo Green or Pure Energy batteries. Heck even their websites and that of BTI are down. Hey wait, the EU distributor's is still up and running but the batteries products are not available anymore lol.

    Does the new charger support this obsolete cylindrical batt chem?

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