Help Me Buy Some Protected HiDrains / Hybrid 18650 for Vinh lights.

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Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

CyclingSalmon14 said:

I am getting a XPG2 Triple (6/7A) and will get some hybrid IMR at some point.

(can't be using unprotected as don't want to mounter voltage between uses, only before and after charging)

But until then k will be using a standard 18650 3400mah Protected panny bases Xtar.

I understand I will loose some proformance but but gain runtime - that's fine for me.

But how big will this effect be? Light is rated by vinh at 1800 lumen's (with hidrains - Emitter lumens not OTF) he reckons I'll see runtimes of 40mins on high using this standard non high drain cell.

(obviously that's not in one go as it steps down after five mins)

If I popped in a protected higdain how would this effect runtime aproxemtly and how big a difference in proformance?

What can I expect to see proformance wise on a non IMR (standard cell). (1200 lumen more less?)

I know this is all very rough and guess work but curious on just how big a difference Hidrain makes vs Non hidrain.

Click to expand...

I've seen reviews by selfbuilt and others where VTC5's bumped 100-150 more lumens. I think it's noticeable. I can tell with my TX25C2vn. I can tell by the heat as well, with a fully charged vtc5 if I turn on turbo and put it right up against my skin it's hot immediately. With an olight 2.6v 3400mah it takes a bit longer before it gets very hot on my skin. Not scientific, but I can tell it's brighter too.

Are you referring to the LD50vn?

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

All depends on the lights tbh, depending on the A per cell ask is,they hold voltage better too,some lights moderate,others 100s of lumens.

Some IMR cells are 2500/2600mah so not much lost regarding time if top off cells once down to 3.6/3.7v anyway.

Would steer away from vtc5 right now on bay,either too pricey or fake as not making them.

ecoluxshop i would look at
efest 35a 2500
efest 20a 3100
Samsung 20/35a 2500

I have all the above and great
Other option i would consider is the KeepPower 20a 3200

Code for the 25r will lead you to shop No 360957651603

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

It took me a bit of looking (30 min or so), but I was able to find authentic vtc5's for around 10 bucks each.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

In the UK,i can find authentic but i am not paying £50 for 2 or $80 :laughing:

Thats a bargain is that

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

CyclingSalmon14 said:

I am getting a XPG2 Triple (6/7A) and will get some hybrid IMR at some point.

(can't be using unprotected as don't want to mounter voltage between uses, only before and after charging)

But until then k will be using a standard 18650 3400mah Protected panny bases Xtar.

I understand I will loose some proformance but but gain runtime - that's fine for me.

But how big will this effect be? Light is rated by vinh at 1800 lumen's (with hidrains - Emitter lumens not OTF) he reckons I'll see runtimes of 40mins on high using this standard non high drain cell.

(obviously that's not in one go as it steps down after five mins)

If I popped in a protected higdain how would this effect runtime aproxemtly and how big a difference in proformance?

What can I expect to see proformance wise on a non IMR (standard cell). (1200 lumen more less?)

I know this is all very rough and guess work but curious on just how big a difference Hidrain makes vs Non hidrain.

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the voltage monitoring?

If you use IMR you don't have as much worry about the cell doing violent stuff, so IMR cells don't tend to NEED protection circuits the way (std 18650) ICR do.


If you use the std protected 18650, you will not be able to support the amp draw very long, reducing the runtime at max output, not increasing it.

If the light turns off when the cell can't supply the amps, it won't over drain the cell. If the light steps down when the cell can't supply the amps, it will just get dimmer as your warning, etc. If its a direct drive that simply dims slowly as the cell draws down, you (Manually) need to notice when dim "enough" to be "Too Dim/Too Drained".

That tends to require the use of a DMM when the light dims, at least at a few initial points/trials, so you see what voltages are associated with how much dimming (And then you do it by eye w/o the meter once you have a feel for that light/cell combo). When you see how dim is associated with the low voltage mark of interest, when its that dim, you know its time for a fresh cell, etc.








The light might have 10% - 15% higher lumens with a corresponding increase in cd on the high drain (IMR) cells vs a protected 18650, although, depending on the circuitry, the ICR 18650 may not be ABLE to supply 7 amps, and, the output could be 1/2 rather than a 10 - 15% loss, etc.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

But you do have to be very careful, only order from legit places with reputation and check to make sure they are real when you get them.

Found this:

"This has been known for as long as vaping has been around. Battery technology is not new and very slow to innovate. The chemistry is pretty readily available in a wide veriety of outlets. Sony Japan sold the rights to their batteries to china a couple of years ago if I'm not mistaken. Chances are that efest makes VTC5s according to Sony's formula. But other shittier manufacturers also make them. This is why I shake my head when people talk about legit or fake VTC5s. They're all fake, as in they're not made by Sony, but some manufactuers make them correctly and some do not. That is why all thsoe "spot the fake" pictorials are bullshit. A shitty looking VTC5 could work beter then a pristine one. The only way to tell if you have a good VTC5 is by the performance. How long do they last, do they work consistently, what level of charge do they take, and how do they act under a heavy load. The SX chips in the newer box mods are great at this because they show how your battery behaves while you click the button, if the power drops all the way you have a poop battery, if it only drops a bit you got a good one.

Good vendors buy their sony's from good companies that make quality batteries. Like illuminationsupply, buy their batteries, they've been around for a while, their vendors have a track record of quality Sony VTC5 batteries. Don't buy from ebay cause you don't know what child labor sweat shop is producing them.
TL;DR- Chances are your Sony VTC5s were made by efest. And they still perform like the original Sony VTC5s cause they follow the same formula. Don't buy batteries off ebay cause other factories make them too."

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

TEEJ said:

I'm not sure what you're talking about with the voltage monitoring?

If you use IMR you don't have as much worry about the cell doing violent stuff, so IMR cells don't tend to NEED protection circuits the way (std 18650) ICR do.

I mean I don't want to worry about my voltage getting to low, as if I used a Unprotected cell I'd have to keep checking to make sure I don't over discharge it.

Not a safety issue but a issue of practicality, with hybrid IMR or standard protected I can run until protection kicks in, may seem like an easy thing if just playing with the light not to run it down to dar but if I'm ridding with it or I'm generally using and need to use the full charge I don't want to worry about over discharge and killing the cell, hence why I will be buying some protected high drain cells.


If you use the std protected 18650, you will not be able to support the amp draw very long, reducing the runtime at max output, not increasing it.

yes of course, i mean I won't be abke to reach its max potential without high drain cells as standard cellsimole can't out out the nessery ampage, but due to this the runtime will b longer on Max with a standard protected 3400 than it would be with a hi drain even if the high drain was the same capacity simply due to the lower out out of the standard proteced cell.

i am correct in thiking if I ran the light at max a protected ,3400 will last longer thana high drain cell even if the high drain cell wasthe same capacity? (Ofocurse there not there nornaly less)

If the light turns off when the cell can't supply the amps, it won't over drain the cell. If the light steps down when the cell can't supply the amps, it will just get dimmer as your warning, etc. If its a direct drive that simply dims slowly as the cell draws down, you (Manually) need to notice when dim "enough" to be "Too Dim/Too Drained".

yes I understand this

That tends to require the use of a DMM when the light dims, at least at a few initial points/trials, so you see what voltages are associated with how much dimming (And then you do it by eye w/o the meter once you have a feel for that light/cell combo). When you see how dim is associated with the low voltage mark of interest, when its that dim, you know its time for a fresh cell, etc.

yes that's my point with a protected I can just swap it out when protection clicks in, no need to keep an eye on anything.







The light might have 10% - 15% higher lumens with a corresponding increase in cd on the high drain (IMR) cells vs a protected 18650, although, depending on the circuitry, the ICR 18650 may not be ABLE to supply 7 amps, and, the output could be 1/2 rather than a 10 - 15% loss, etc.

Click to expand...

Anyways sorry I think I made a mess of this...






I was pretty much just wondering on a triple XPG2 driven at 6-7 amps what the diffrnfe in out put would be with a protected standard cell vs a high drain.

I was wondering if it would be a big difference say 1000lumens vs 1800 lumens of a high drain. Or if it would only be 200 or so lumens diffrance.

Light is rated at 1800 with a High drain but I know it won't achieve this on a standard cell but I was wondering what it would achieve?

I know I will get 40mins on high/max with a standard cell but when I use a high drain I wonders how much my runtime would go down by due to running harder due to using a higher drain dell that will allow the light to its full potential. (And of course the untial lower mah rating on a high drain, I'd imagine while it would be brighter I'd only get like 20mins or so from a 2600 high drain...due to both running harder and the lower capacity id imagine runtime woukd take a huge hit!

It was purely a question in proformance using two dirrend cells, and how big that difference would be.

But it seems from some of the posts that this difference can be very small or can in some cases be very large depending on the light.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

I want to assume you are talking about a triple P60 drop-in, correct? The light is using only one 18650? That means that your driver will either be running direct drive or maybe regulated.

There is just no way that you will get 6-7 Amps draw off a ICR cell. The internal resistance is way to high. Maybe you'll be able to get 4-5 Amps if you are lucky but the battery voltage will drop very quickly and so will the current. Best Ri (internal resistance) you are likely to get from a ICR is around 70-80 mOhms. When I tested some cells that were about 1-2 years old their Ri was closer to 150+ mOhms.

You need an IMR cells to get the full current off this setup. A Sony VTC5 has an Ri closer to 10-15 mOhms. I have some Panasonic hybrid 2500mAh batteries as well and their Ri was measuring around 20-30 mOhms.

I've tested the Sony VTC5 on a 6Amp triple I made and I was able to get a full 6Amps. It didn't last for a really long time before the current started to drop as that is a high load for even the best cells.

Keep in mind that any runtimes will also experience lumen drop-off through the run. You may only get that 1800 lumens for 5 minutes. Also - heat will be a big issue. You won't be able to run that light on high for the full time.

Summary - I don't think ICR 18650s are appropriate for this setup. Protected or not you will be pushing this cell too hard and the cycle life of the cell will drop dramatically as well. Get a good IMR cell. If you can't find the VTC5 you may want to try an eFest IMR 2500mAh cell.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

Yes, sorry, overlooked that my bad, I for some reason assumed people would know that, LOL Doh! Sorry, yes its a triple P60.

I'm pretty sure it will be direct drive? I know vinh says it is not regulated and it just fade as the battery looses power. So would assume its direct drive then.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond said:

I want to assume you are talking about a triple P60 drop-in, correct? The light is using only one 18650? That means that your driver will either be running direct drive or maybe regulated.

There is just no way that you will get 6-7 Amps draw off a ICR cell. The internal resistance is way to high. Maybe you'll be able to get 4-5 Amps if you are lucky but the battery voltage will drop very quickly and so will the current. Best Ri (internal resistance) you are likely to get from a ICR is around 70-80 mOhms. When I tested some cells that were about 1-2 years old their Ri was closer to 150+ mOhms.

You need an IMR cells to get the full current off this setup. A Sony VTC5 has an Ri closer to 10-15 mOhms. I have some Panasonic hybrid 2500mAh batteries as well and their Ri was measuring around 20-30 mOhms.

I've tested the Sony VTC5 on a 6Amp triple I made and I was able to get a full 6Amps. It didn't last for a really long time before the current started to drop as that is a high load for even the best cells.

Keep in mind that any runtimes will also experience lumen drop-off through the run. You may only get that 1800 lumens for 5 minutes. Also - heat will be a big issue. You won't be able to run that light on high for the full time.

Summary - I don't think ICR 18650s are appropriate for this setup. Protected or not you will be pushing this cell too hard and the cycle life of the cell will drop dramatically as well. Get a good IMR cell. If you can't find the VTC5 you may want to try an eFest IMR 2500mAh cell.

Click to expand...

Thak you, would hybrid cells (Protected panny IMR things) be a good compromise?

I had hoped I'd get away with only a little loss on a standard cell, did not realise they were that weak, I thought the IMR were for silly powerful things that are 10+ amps. Hmm OK thanks for the information I'll look into the hybrids, as this will be on my hekemt and I'm ridding I don't want the worry of over discharge.

Yhea I knew I'd only get 1800 for the first few mins ahaha, that's only for when I really need it and most of the time it will be on low or medium.

I have some old xtar cells I'll use until I can buy some hybrids, as I don't mind if they suffer a bit. And should be able to cope on the lower modes.

Cant wait, will be my first P60 style light and my first triple, I'm a bit worried JM going to want more hosts and start buying more dropoins....

Thaks all!

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

Which are the best protected high drains, I believe in my other thread (EDIT: Now this one) some one said there called Hybrid's.

All the benefits of a High drain so I can run vinhs lights that need high drains but also have protection, obviously at the added expense of protection and less mah but that's fine for me, Ill use standard cells in the ones that don't need so much power.

Aka which ones are the best, most power but still good mah? Obviously they won't be as strong as a Sony VTC5 but should be ample for vinhs lights?, Much better than standard cell and allow the lights almost there full potential, and great for running in multiple cell setups.

Whare can I buy in UK I don't see them on any of my usual flashlight sites.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

CyclingSalmon14 said:

Which are the best protected high drains, I believe in my other thread (EDIT: Now this one) some one said there called Hybrid's.

All the benefits of a High drain so I can run vinhs lights that need high drains but also have protection, obviously at the added expense of protection and less mah but that's fine for me, Ill use standard cells in the ones that don't need so much power.

Aka which ones are the best, most power but still good mah? Obviously they won't be as strong as a Sony VTC5 but should be ample for vinhs lights?, Much better than standard cell and allow the lights almost there full potential, and great for running in multiple cell setups.

Whare can I buy in UK I don't see them on any of my usual flashlight sites.

Click to expand...

Something like this is probably what you want:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-BLAZA...ronics_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item416d2a08dd

Tested to 10A continuous with one of the best protection circuits available, 3400mAh.
Not cheap or local to you though...

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

lionheart_2281 said:

Something like this is probably what you want:
http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/2x-BLAZA...ronics_Batteries_Chargers&hash=item416d2a08dd

Tested to 10A continuous with one of the best protection circuits available, 3400mAh.
Not cheap or local to you though...

Click to expand...

Tested by who? The cells you linked to are based on the bog-standard NCR18650B...not a high drain cell at all. And some of those graphs are just wrong, or at the very least, misleading. I don't see any 10A tests, and for good reason...protection would trip long before it hit 10A. And even if the cell could do it, the capacity would be extremely low under that type of load.

Some of the graphs have no axis labels, so they could be measuring anything at all. It doesn't say. The very first graph on the page you linked is one example. No actual labels...just numbers. But it LOOKS like voltage on the Y axis, capacity in mAh on the X axis. If so, they are just lying to you. Shows a measured capacity of 4000 mAh. A very big red flag...there is no 18650 available anywhere, regardless of chemistry, that can provide 4000 mAh. Ebay is a terrible place to buy batteries, in my opinion. Too many fakes, and too many marketing lies.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

thedoc007 said:

Tested by who? The cells you linked to are based on the bog-standard NCR18650B...not a high drain cell at all. And some of those graphs are just wrong, or at the very least, misleading. I don't see any 10A tests, and for good reason...protection would trip long before it hit 10A. And even if the cell could do it, the capacity would be extremely low under that type of load.

Some of the graphs have no axis labels, so they could be measuring anything at all. It doesn't say. The very first graph on the page you linked is one example. No actual labels...just numbers. But it LOOKS like voltage on the Y axis, capacity in mAh on the X axis. If so, they are just lying to you. Shows a measured capacity of 4000 mAh. A very big red flag...there is no 18650 available anywhere, regardless of chemistry, that can provide 4000 mAh. Ebay is a terrible place to buy batteries, in my opinion. Too many fakes, and too many marketing lies.

Click to expand...

Tested by Yass himself. He showed me graphs on his computer, he is the Aussie equivalent to HKJ, has all the testing gear, rooms of it. He had 4 of the above in his FFIV and it ran on turbo no worries and didn't warm up and slower than PF's.
He used to be into lights, now he is a vaper. He knows what he is talking about.
They are NCRB's with a high quality protection circuit he designed himself (electrical engineer)

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

lionheart_2281 said:

Tested by Yass himself. He showed me graphs on his computer, he is the Aussie equivalent to HKJ, has all the testing gear, rooms of it. He had 4 of the above in his FFIV and it ran on turbo no worries and didn't warm up and slower than PF's.
He used to be into lights, now he is a vaper. He knows what he is talking about.
They are NCRB's with a high quality protection circuit he designed himself (electrical engineer)

Click to expand...

Perhaps he does know what he is talking about, I have no idea either way. But that page you linked to is problematic...and I stand by my recommendation to avoid a seller that has misleading or inaccurate statements on his page. Graphs need labels...

I don't know how you (or Yass, or anyone) can claim NCR18650B cells are good at 10A...even unprotected versions can't handle that load well. So the protection circuit really isn't the critical issue.

I bought XSTAR batteries from battery junction and they are relabeled Sony VTC 5's. Best I can tell, they are real and perform very good. I have 8 of them now and they all look the same and all perform the same. They make my MM15 and PD35 triple much brighter than a standard battery. They are also reasonable priced.

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

I'm enjoying this dialogue and the great points made by a number of you. But to answer the question originally asked about the VTC5 vs. a protected cell, I received the very light you've asked about--a triple XPG2 from Vinh and I've gone made this comparison over and over again. If there is a difference, it is minimal. I run Eagletac 3400's protected and I have VTC5's from a solid source. The 3400's appear of the same brightness and last a few minutes longer. The step-down comes at around the same time for both. The light gets hot quickly with both batteries, which likely has nothing to do with the cells, but rather how hard Vinh drives the light itself. You all have a considerable edge on me when it comes to a clear understanding of the technology involved, but for what it's worth, my eyes tell me they are pretty darn close. Thusly, the protected cells make more sense to me since that are essentially worry-free.

CyclingSalmon14 said:

Thak you, would hybrid cells (Protected panny IMR things) be a good compromise?

I had hoped I'd get away with only a little loss on a standard cell, did not realise they were that weak, I thought the IMR were for silly powerful things that are 10+ amps. Hmm OK thanks for the information I'll look into the hybrids, as this will be on my hekemt and I'm ridding I don't want the worry of over discharge.

Yhea I knew I'd only get 1800 for the first few mins ahaha, that's only for when I really need it and most of the time it will be on low or medium.

I have some old xtar cells I'll use until I can buy some hybrids, as I don't mind if they suffer a bit. And should be able to cope on the lower modes.

Cant wait, will be my first P60 style light and my first triple, I'm a bit worried JM going to want more hosts and start buying more dropoins....

Thaks all!

Click to expand...

Re: How big a difference vs IMR?

Wow, that sounds good to know and is great news, but how that is possible I have no idea, there is no way a 3400 panny can reach 7amps...you really can't tell a diffrance? The oannys will give longer runtime though.

I'm looking for hybrid cells that can deliver the current whilst remain protected but can't find any for sale, I understand I want protected NCR18650PF 2900mah or similar cells but can't find them...

Some ingesting points made above though...night just run my protected Olights / Star cells. Would be nice to see just what kind of a difference it is though.

Joeymt3 said:

I bought XSTAR batteries from battery junction and they are relabeled Sony VTC 5's. Best I can tell, they are real and perform very good. I have 8 of them now and they all look the same and all perform the same. They make my MM15 and PD35 triple much brighter than a standard battery. They are also reasonable priced.

Click to expand...

But no protection...if its a showy light its fine but I need protection for my use, my only problem is scourceing that famed things...