Anyone using NiZn batteries?

yama

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
10
i was wondering if anyone has used NiZn batteries in thier led torch?

looking to use a couple NiZn batteries in my 2 cell AAA led torch rather than using a 10440 and a dummy.

having a little trouble finding AAA NiZn batteries of a reliable brand any recommendations?
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
i was wondering if anyone has used NiZn batteries in thier led torch?

looking to use a couple NiZn batteries in my 2 cell AAA led torch rather than using a 10440 and a dummy.

having a little trouble finding AAA NiZn batteries of a reliable brand any recommendations?

I just ordered a 4 pack of BPI and a charger to try out, should be here Monday. My understanding is new, the AAA cells will have about 750mAh capacity, about equal the energy of NiMH cells. Also, the chemistry is reported to be very safe. Because there's more voltage than NiMh, there's less capacity, but the energy is the same. There are always warnings about using these in unregulated 3x AAA lights, and I'm not sure if its that the lights will be damaged due to higher voltage, or that one of the batteries will be damaged due to overdischarging, or both.

I also have read they are fragile cells, do not recover from abuse by over-discharging (and lose capacity), and don't have much shelf life over a month. I have seen a couple posts of experiences of only getting 5-8 charges out of a battery before it is done, but I can't vouch for the posters' treatment of the cells.

I have been trying to collect the names of brands of NiZn (and so far):

PowerGenix
BPI
Ultracell
Ultracell Plus
UltraLast Green (not sure if this is same Co as above)
PKCell
Conrad Energy (AKKU)
LLSai
Hobby King
Turnigy


PowerGenix was the original developer, batteries still available but no longer produced. The different manufacturers list different mWh ratings, but I doubt any are accurate.

I love L92 batteries, but they are so expensive! I want to find out for myself if its worth it to use NiZn compared to L92, not compared to NiMH, which seems unmatched in rechargeables for the time being for all qualities but max voltage (uh... I haven't really tried Li-ion, so that's about the limit of my experience).

You should expect some posts trying to deter you from trying new things based on others' poor experience. I expect NiZn cells are going to get better, but people have to adopt them for that to happen. Nothing is perfect, not even the often praised "perfect keychain light!" ;-)

Edit:
the Voltcraft Charge Manager 410 (CM410) Intelligent Battery Charger looks awesome, charges 1-4 NiZn and NiMH, and has some higher functions beyond charging (discharge, also perhaps refresh/breakin, idk). Product page is at voltcraft.nl (in Dutch) and I see it on eBay sold from Germany, and at Conrad Energy's site (UK), and Amazon's UK site, but can't find it sold for $ domestically, nor can I find any reviews, nor any mention of it on CPF.

TV1OWiQl.jpg

salient details google translated from voltcraft.nl
n4widv8.png
 
Last edited:

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
BPI Charger and 4 batteries arrived. Resting 1.6v, used them for 30 minutes, then put on charger (only charges 2 AAA at a time). 1.85v after first charge.

I can't find any reviews of BPI NiZn, or any true review/analysis of any NiZn except for PowerGenix. I think the trouble is PowerGenix batteries were terrible, and the consensus on the suckiness of NiZn is entirely based on experiences with that original brand, often long after PowerGenix stopped producing them. But I don't know for sure, and it will take some time before I have any worthwhile impressions, and even then, without an analyzer, my impressions will be unscientific. But it should be fun, and even if my NiZn experiences are poor, it was a cheap purchase.
 

yama

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
10
Picked up some bpi aaa and charger two aaa have already destroyed one light
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
Picked up some bpi aaa and charger two aaa have already destroyed one light


:'(
With multiple NiZn cells and the higher voltage, that is more of a risk. Did you try it with one NiMH and one NiZn before its untimely demise? What make/model light?
 

yama

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 4, 2015
Messages
10
No i didnt think of that.....

It was 2aaa cells so power of 3.2v but now looking at it i forgot the charge to 1.8v so would of initially been 3.6v. The torch was a maglite mini aaa led light, where the luxeon c led is rated to 3.57v max (i thought i was only putting 3.2v to it)
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
Ridiculously enough, I believe MagLite only supports alkaline, at least that's what I gathered from a recent thread complaining about their forward technological progression, or lack of it. If Mag doesn't support Energizer L91/L92 Lithium primaries, they obviously won't support the higher initial voltage of NiZn.

Don't look at it like you lost an LED; look at it like you gained a nice host for a custom new flashlight that can work with any cell (maybe start a new thread "what should I do with my dead Mag?" or something along those lines).
 
Last edited:

Mr Floppy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,065
Did you try it with one NiMH and one NiZn before its untimely demise? What make/model light?

Not a good idea to put two cells of different voltages and chemistry in series.

I am one of those early NiZn adopters, starting with PowerGenix. I still have some. I think half the problem was the charger. I've been using the ultrasmart charger that is made by one the members here and the PowerGenix cells are doing much better.
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
Not a good idea to put two cells of different voltages and chemistry in series.

And why do you think that?


I am one of those early NiZn adopters, starting with PowerGenix. I still have some. I think half the problem was the charger. I've been using the ultrasmart charger that is made by one the members here and the PowerGenix cells are doing much better.

Encouraging! I thought everyone had poor experiences with PowerGenix.
 

Mr Floppy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,065
And why do you think that?

Reverse charging is the main issue. Even though the NiZn is a higher voltage, it will be the first to deplete and get damaged. The PowerGenix ones I have suffered even when I used two NiZn's together. The problem seemed to be that even though they both charged to 1.9V, the capacities varied between the cells as much as 300mA even though they came out of the packet but varied a lot after 5 cycles.

Encouraging! I thought everyone had poor experiences with PowerGenix.

I only use them in single cell devices now, and once they are used up, don't think I'll bother unless newer tech improves on them. Still have a pack unopened ...
The higher voltage is great with my electric toothbrush and the ultrasmart charger has been keeping the two cells I use in pretty good shape. Tempted to try the Hobby King ones again
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
Reverse charging is the main issue. Even though the NiZn is a higher voltage, it will be the first to deplete and get damaged.

Personally, I think anything designed to use cells in series is a bad idea: starting with identical cells with identical charge, seems like you'll always end up with one cell charged and one cell discharged (rather than both (or all) cells being at the same reduced voltage). But what you're describing is only a possibility if one over-discharges the NiZn cell, below 1v, and if you do that in a single cell light, you may also damage a NiZn. And though I see this warning in many places, I haven't heard of polarity reversal actually happening to anyone (though... I don't get out much). Should the NiZn cell drop down below 1.3v, you should notice the light is quite dimmer than when the cell was fully charged (assuming the light is unregulated), and swap cells. And I still don't see why it would matter if the chemistry is different. Seems like common sense "don't mix and match," but other than this particular boogyman (charge reversal/cell damage), I can't see a reason not to if you're aiming for an increased voltage you can't get to otherwise. I'm just glad the reason isn't "because it might explode."

Tempted to try the Hobby King ones again

Adding "Hobby King" to my list above... thanks!
 
Last edited:

thedoc007

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 16, 2013
Messages
3,632
Location
Michigan, USA
Personally, I think anything designed to use cells in series is a bad idea: starting with identical cells with identical charge, seems like you'll always end up with one cell charged and one cell discharged (rather than both (or all) cells being at the same reduced voltage).

Why do you think that? I have many lights that run the cells in series...and they all stay matched quite well. That is why you always want to use the same type/age/brand/state of charge cells. They should stay very close to one another that way...if you mix and match, that will not be the case.

And though I see this warning in many places, I haven't heard of polarity reversal actually happening to anyone

If you do a search, you will find several examples of lights exploding. In virtually every case, low quality cells, or user error were involved. Problems are rare because most people are sensible enough to use quality matched cells, which (almost) reduces the risk to nothing. If you are knowledgeable enough to calculate the risk of running mismatched cells, and decide that said risk is is low enough for you, by all means. But I wouldn't recommend it to anyone...you are begging for trouble, sooner or later.
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
Why do you think that?

My experience with some poor examples, a couple 3 cell multi-5mm-led lights I have. Seems like they always drain one cell at a time. Invaraibly, I always have 2 charged cells, one depleated (always NiMH). They are bad lights. I do not consider them part of the collection, just junk I put empty pill bottles over to use as dim lamps.

If you are knowledgeable enough to calculate the risk of running mismatched cells, and decide that said risk is is low enough for you, by all means.

Not my intention, I just wanted the reason to come along with the warning, rather than the warning to be hanging there without reason.
 

Mr Floppy

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 19, 2007
Messages
2,065
I haven't heard of polarity reversal actually happening to anyone (though... I don't get out much). Should the NiZn cell drop down below 1.3v, you should notice the light is quite dimmer than when the cell was fully charged (assuming the light is unregulated), and swap cells.

It's happened to me with the PowerGenix NiZn. It seems they were quite susceptible to reverse charge. I had two cells which had a negative voltage.

The drop-off from 1.3V to 1.0V is quite quick with the PowerGenix, especially at >1A currents. Killed a couple in a Fenix MC10, which was pulling over 2A. Yep, they dim, but they may not recover.
 

UserName

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
132
I haven't tried them in AAA, but I've tried PowerGenix in AA. They were remarkably unimpressive. High self discharge, and only ran a few cycles before they just wouldn't take a charge.
 

chillinn

Flashlight Enthusiast
Joined
Jul 19, 2014
Messages
2,527
Location
Mobjack Bay
I've been using the BPI charger and BPI NiZn cells for over a week, and I have some impressions. I like the higher voltage, and how it rides along at 1.6v for most of its output, but that knee is really sharp, and the drop in voltage is really fast. I'm finding it difficult to catch it at the knee between 1.6v and 1v. I have not succeeded yet, and mostly I'm catching it around .85v, which, I understand, is bad for the cell. The runtime is fine, about as long as a typical eneloop, and for my purposes the LSDness is ok, from my limited trial, a cell stays close to 1.8v for at least a week (granted, that is not an acceptable period of LSD, but I don't have too many cells, use them all in a week).

The dumb BPI charger, however, is total excrement. Its inexpensive, but I recommend against it... do NOT get the BPI dumb charger. It will only charge 2 AAA at a time, and every time I use it I have to monkey with it to get it to even see there are cells in there, to initiate the charge. Every time I use it, I think its broken... but after removing, replacing, removing, replacing, changing the angle they sit, etc., messing with the cells, unplugging, replugging... eventually the charge indicator lights activate. As it charges, the indicator lights get dimmer, so its not easy to see when the charge is complete.

My use for the NiZn cells was for my Arc AAA-UV, which I hardly use, making L92 a much better choice even at its high price. The other use (now my only use) was for my AAA 5mw 532nm laser... which I fried last week with a 10440, but I'll eventually replace it (for $9, I like it). Since the laser is gone, I'm using it in my Maratac AAA just to experience the cell use, and it is brighter... but, again, the knee of the output curve is very sharp, and drops off really fast. Its easy to see why the cells are easily damaged. Its almost impossible to catch it unless you're really paying attention, and that sort of is silly, because light is for a purpose, and its unusual that the light itself is its own purpose.
 

oeL

Newly Enlightened
Joined
Sep 18, 2011
Messages
131
Location
Bavaria, Germany
the Voltcraft Charge Manager 410 (CM410) Intelligent Battery Charger looks awesome, charges 1-4 NiZn and NiMH, and has some higher functions beyond charging (discharge, also perhaps refresh/breakin, idk).

I'm using this charger since more than one year for both chemistries, and it works nicely.

Regarding NiZns, they have two disadvantages over NiMh:
- high self discharge and
- low cycle count
Use them when you want to get rid of primaries, and your device requires more than 1.2V. Or use them to pimp your device (pepper mill, for example). For both use cases, they are just great. When using them in flashlights, remember that fully charged they start with about 1.86V.
 
Top