Flashlight(torches) companies and IPX ratings

I know there is a thread here explaining the types of IPX ratings. This thread is not about this. Today there was a certain flashlight company posting on Facebook that they would not replace torches(flashlights) that people have left submerging in water over night. If this company understood the ratings along with other major companies about IPX rating, they would understand that IPX8 means that the torch can be fully submerged under water for unlimited amount of time, unless they specifically stated that it can only be done for 30 minutes. If you are like me, you go online and check what IPX rating means and find this http://news.outdoortechnology.com/2...ater-resistant-and-ipx-what-does-it-all-mean/

Which contradicts what they think what IPX8 means. If the torch can only be submerged under water for only 30 minutes, then it should be IPX7 rated. I found today to that if the IP has a "x" next to it-it is not dust proof. If it reads IP and a number next to it, for example "IP6" then it is dust proof and water proof. If the company fails to address any limitations about their products to their customer, they should take accountability for their mistakes. If you claim your product to be IPX8 and it is not fully submergible in water, then you should change it to IPX7 which only submergible for 30 minutes.

Okay, sounds like a rant, but I was really disappointed on this torch(flashlight) company for trying to make their customers sound dumb and illiterate, which no one is.

CPF member explaining the ratings:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?229090-IPX8-standard-explained!!!

Huh. That doesn't sound like a good way to treat customers. I would be disappointed as well to see something like that.

bdogps said:

If you claim your product to be IPX8 and it is not fully submergible in water, then you should change it to IPX7 which only submergible for 30 minutes.

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You're assuming that:
a) Any testing was done whatsoever
b) Any claims made have a basis in reality, untested or not.

I hate it that there are houses out there that do this, but this seems to fall under "exaggerated claims" of makers.

You know the ones. "ZOMG! 15,000 lumens! Lasts 2,300 hours! Brightest single D alkaline light EVAR! Waterproof to depths of 10,000 meters in Jupiter's atmosphere! Class 4 ballistic resistant!!"

You know, the kind of marque that googles for technical sounding terms. What's the biggest one? Nah, not big enough. Sure. We're IPX10K compliant! Nah, still not big enough. Add some more letters and numbers! NO! This is VERSION 2, double the lumen and runtime claim!

Performing simple math for lumens/watt based on emitter and taking an amp reading at the tail cap used to be a hobby of mine:

Busting Chinalumens. It's usually a factor of 2x-10x or so.

Another thing:

IPX-8 Protected against water submersion - The equipment is suitable for continual submersion in water under conditions which are identified by the manufacturer.

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(Chinalumen) Devil's Advocate: :devil:"Our lights are IPX-8 rated against water submersion. However, do not get them wet as these are not intended operating conditions. Not suitable for diving."

bdogps said:

If this company understood the ratings along with other major companies about IPX rating, they would understand that IPX8 means that the torch can be fully submerged under water for unlimited amount of time, unless they specifically stated that it can only be done for 30 minutes. If you are like me, you go online and check what IPX rating means and find this http://news.outdoortechnology.com/2...ater-resistant-and-ipx-what-does-it-all-mean/

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Except that the article you link to is wrong. Even IPX8 has a defined time...four hours. Think about it...the whole point of ANSI FL-1 is to provide a TESTABLE standard...you cannot test for "unlimited" time, obviously. There is no possible way to verify an indefinite rating.

Note that IPX-8 also doesn't necessarily mean no water intrusion into the light...it just means water doesn't cause any harmful effects. It also doesn't include any functional testing while underwater...i.e., the light is turned on, but no switches are operated during the submersion. A "submersible" rating means no water enters the light, but a lot of companies don't specify that either way.

selfbuilt has covered this in detail: http://www.flashlightreviews.ca/FL1.htm

I apologise if did not get my point across. The problem is that this company came out saying that their torches(flashlights) are only submersible in water for only 30 minutes. None of their packages state that, they only boast that they are IPX8 rated. The site that I mention even said "IPX8 to manufactures specifications." If they they do not specify what limitations their products have, how is one to know? Their warranty only states that they wont cover it if you modify it, open it, use poor quality batteries or leakage from inferior batteries. I have never see them write, "IPX8 rating in fresh water between these temperatures and these conditions. For only 30 minutes exactly and if you go beyond these conditions, the warranty will be voided."

The other thing to that most people who review the torches(mostly on youtube) say that this company is more than happy to replace the torch if it stops being operational. Some people(I am one of them) that trust these torches for their line of work. So this really disappointed me because I am big fan of their products.

So if their product only is submersible for only 30 minutes, they should be honest and only rate them as IPX7.

Yeah, that makes sense. I was just trying to clarify...it is a sad fact that many manufacturers seem to just claim a spec, even if they haven't done any testing at all. Still, we (as enthusiasts) have a responsibility to understand what the standard actually entails...you can't reasonably claim you are being misled, if you didn't bother to learn about the standard in the first place.

The only flashlight I have that leaks is supposedly IPX 8

Norm

Thanks doc for the link.

I found this from: http://flashlightwiki.com/ANSI-NEMA_FL-1#Water_Resistance

IPX8 "Submersible" The light can be submerged for 4 hours to some depth greater than 1 meter. The depth would be specified, e.g. IPX8 10 meters. Realistically the light is not put in the given depth of water, but instead is completely submerged in a container and the pressure is then increased to simulate the depth.

So for example, the ArmyTek Predator v3, would truthfully be IPX8. Manufacture states; "The flashlight works for more than 5 hours at 50 meters depth".

kj2 said:

So for example, the ArmyTek Predator v3, would truthfully be IPX8. Manufacture states; "The flashlight works for more than 5 hours at 50 meters depth".

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Yes exactly! The company in question only said 30 minutes. That is I why I told them to change to IPX7.

http://www.streamlight.com/Documents/ansi/ansi-pres.pdf

In that case there are many manufacturers who should change the rating.
Ohwell, as long my lights can handle water, it's fine for me

Long Video, but it is interesting for those who,"Everything you wanted to know but were afraid to ask about standards: IEEE, ANSI, IEC, UL and NEMA" <strong><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: arial, sans-serif; line-height: 17px;">

Having previously performed a lot of underwater acoustic testing, all of our devises had to pass both a leak test at 1000 psi and a high pot test.

The fiberglass pressure tank was dunked, filled with water then the pressure was applied. Since the devise was hooked up for testing, we monitored the resistance during testing. Any increase of resistance indicated that we had a leak and the test was stopped.

The safest method of testing your lights for water proofness is to first, remove the batteries, secondly clean and lubricate the o-rings, finally place your light into a container of water that has been heated to at least 140 F. The internal pressure differential in the light after being heated will allow you to observe for any air bubbles coming from the light. As long as you remove the light before the water cools the light in most cases won't allow for water intrusion. This is a standard test performed in the aerospace world to determine that a unit is sealed.

This has got to be a typo, right?

According to Pelican IPX8 = submersible to 100 m for 4 hours.

http://www.pelican.com/lights_detail/recordID/2350/ see "SPECS"

scs said:

This has got to be a typo, right?

According to Pelican IPX8 = submersible to 100 m for 4 hours.

http://www.pelican.com/lights_detail/recordID/2350/ see "SPECS"

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Yes, that is wrong. IPX-8 does not specify 100 meters depth.