New Recommendations for a light to use in a theatrical setting.

Hello everyone,

This is my second try at this - I just spent around two hours searching, registering, signing in, searching again, posting a new thread, then 30 minutes typing a very in-depth question, only to be greeted with the lovely page informing me that I was no longer signed in, and of course losing all of the text I typed. I'm going to try to reconstruct it, but forgive me if its shorter and more curt than it should be.

First all, thanks to all of you who keep this community going. One of the things I love about my work is getting to dive into new areas I know nothing about, and find a group of people who are incredibly knowledgeable and (usually) happy to help those not part of the community, but who want to dip their toes in with questions.

I am a lighting and production designer, and one of the groups I work with is a dance company that does performances with people who are not typically performers by watching them work, then taking the things that they do and putting them into a setting with music, lights, and other theatrical elements to show the beauty of the work and draw attention to the people who usually remain invisible. We have worked with firemen, cops, trash collectors, electrical linemen, blind people and their guide dogs, Elvis impersonators, and others. If that sounds interesting, you can find out more about us by searching for Forklift Danceworks or the move Trash Project, which is on Netflix... We are pretty well known and have a fairly legitimate reputation.

Our current show is with Austin Parks and Recreation - specifically the people who work with the trees in the parks - in around a week and a half. The show is going to be set around one very old Pecan tree, with an audience of about a thousand people each night for two performances. Most of the show will be lit with theatrical instruments - around 80 ETC Source Fours running off a film-type generator. These lamps generally put out around 7k lumens each through some very good optics and are the most common instrument found in theaters of all sizes. For two particular sections however, we want to turn the audiences attention outwards, to some other trees, with people climbing, and for those sections, due to distance and the lack of available power, I am looking into lighting those short sections with battery powered spotlights or high intensity flashlights. Which is why I am coming to you...

I looked into doing a similar thing a few years ago, but found that even some very big rechargeable spotlights didn't really have the punch needed. Now though, some searching on Amazon and Ebay have turned up a large selection of small flashlights advertised as 1k, 2k or even 3k and 4k lumens for not unreasonable cost. I'm skeptical of those numbers, of course, but the fact that there are so many of them, and at prices starting as low as $20 makes me think that there may in fact be something out there that can meet my requirements for not too much money. In searching, I did see a couple threads related to this question, but in both cases they were fairly old - more than 5 years, and given the advances in technology, it seemed like starting a new thread was worthwhile.

And so here are my requirements, or wish list, perhaps, in order of importance. I'd really appreciate it if you'd take a look and offer up any recommendations. I'll also note that the idea of using these comes up from time to time, so some of these requirements will be looking towards future use as opposed to just the situation described above.

1. Brightness. As noted above, most of the show will be lit as brightly as we care to have it... these two sections will be further away, and obviously darker, but something that can at least be in the same ballpark is necessary. My guess is that this means 2k lumens output or more, but if it's well controlled, 1k may be useable.

2. Control/quality of light. Obviously brightness means nothing if it's not used well. Ideally, I'd like a flash or spot that can zoom between a wider angle and a spotted beam... Maybe 10 or 20 degrees out to 40 or 50 or 60. Also, a nice even beam without a lot of spill is a big deal... less so in this show, but very much so for other uses where the audience is closer to the light source.

3. Battery life. I need something that can run for at least 20 - 25 minutes, minimum, and 10 minutes consecutively at its high setting. I'd prefer more than that, but this is what is necessary. Ability to use a rechargeable battery is preferred, so that I'm not making constant trips to recycle expensive batteries. Also the ability to use a form factor that can be found easily is preferable, but I realize that specialize batteries may be necessary in order to get the brightness I'm seeking. Run times of an hour or more open up a lot of possibilities for future use.

4. Easy to switch on and off. One switch for on and off, that doesn't go through the various modes on the way is much preferred. A second switch to change mode, or at least holding down the on/off button to change modes, as most headlamps do, makes turning the light on and off much cleaner in terms of what the audience sees.

5. Size/weight. This is a pretty small consideration, honestly. In some ways, a light of the old D battery Maglite style is easier to hold steady than the very small lights I'm mostly seeing on Amazon. A trigger type spotlight is fine... The only thing that is going to be a real consideration is going to be when it gets into very heavy or very large spotlights that will be hard for a person to hold steady for 10 minutes at a time. My crew is pretty good, so they can make a lot of things work.

6. Quality. I need something that is reliable, of course, but frankly, this is theater - not a war zone. These will be used a few times a year, for a few minutes or an hour at a time. As much as I am a believer in buying good gear that will last, in this situation, a lesser brand that is going to work good enough and has a good quality of light at 2k lumens for $50 will be preferable to the brand everyone knows can take a beating that puts out half the light for twice as much money. We don't beat our stuff up, and we don't need the best - just good enough.

Given all of that, I'd love to hear what you have to say. My preferred budget would be $100 each, including batteries, or less. If I can get twice as many that will meet my requirements at $50 each, even better. Again... I'd like good, but I don't need bombproof. Any money I save here can go to other cool things, but that said, if I can find something that really will pump out 3k lumens for a decent price, then that opens up other possibilities in itself.

So there you go... Let me hear what you've got to say! And once again, thanks so much for having so many people here offering up so much information for no cost but the time it takes to look it up.

Cheers,

Stephen

Big informative post, my reply won't be as big though.

I don't think you should be looking at lumen values, you are after something with distance so you need to get throw which normally measured in lux or cd. What sort of distance are you looking at to light up and how wide a spot?

What if the spotlight was a rough square rather than a circle? Off the top of my head, the dereelight xsearcher can zoom and go wide, and being an aspheric lens light, there is little spill

For these far off shots, where does the light source have to be? I am assuming relatively close to the scene since you mention lack of power. One solution comes to mind immediately, depending on how many units you need at once. The Nitecore TM15 is a triple XM-L light that runs on 18650 rechargeable cells. It puts out over 1k lumens, and has a throw of several hundred meters. It does have some spill, but any theater tech worth his salt should be able to adapt a set of mini-barn doors to control the beam. One nice aspect is that it has a regular tripod socket on the bottom of the light so it can be mounted on a tripod or light bar just like another stage light.

A real solution to your problem would be one of the Pelican Remote Lighting Systems, like the 9430SL. Unfortunately, they start around $600 and go up rapidly. If you could find a fairy Godfather to donate them, that would be great.

Have you looked at the pro video area lately. They are doing some really great things with on-camera LED light panels for remote news gathering, as well as battery-powered set lights for on location shooting.

Good luck and let us know what you select and how well it works.

And Welcome to CPF!:welcome:

EDIT: I tried to send this in a IM, but you aren't receiving them so here it is. I hope I don't get in trouble for this. It is to a copy of TVTech magazine in PDF form. Look for the lighting adds and column.

http://www.nxtbook.com/fx/save/dbin...7f&sid=f3f056c03941148c1651078b5c9cee2f&pdf=1

Thanks guys,

One of the reasons I phrased my search the way I did is because there will not be one set location and throw distance, the idea with these is that we'll have people running around on the ground, using them where they are needed. Sometimes they will be aimed into the trees, where people are climbing, which might mean at a distance spotted down, or at the base, aiming straight up, and flooded out a bit. For that same reason, it didn't make much sense to specify my needs in terms of lux. Generally, for a single spot light, my ideal is to have 100fc/1000 lux (most calculations are done in fc in my software) on the subject, but again, I have done things with much less, and depending on what else is going on in the environment, I'll want less or more. In the case of these flashlights, I'm obviously going to be making do with less.

Tomonthybil - I'm very familiar with most of the LED bank type stuff, but they are mainly geared towards a nice even flood at short distances. LED banks are not generally a very pretty light, in theatrical and photographic terms, as the shadows tend to be both harsh (from the individual LEDs) and muddy (with lots of them intermixing). In any case, that's not really what I'm going for here. The Pelicans are nice, but have similar issues, in that they are more about throwing a bunch of light rather than one nice beam, and in any case, if I were wanting to spend $500 each, I have better options with portable power at that price point. The Nitecore is one of the units I was looking at, and it's good to see it recommended.

Mr Floppy - the dereelight might be just the thing... I am going to do some research on the reviews of it here, and see what the beam quality looks like, and see if I can find specs on how wide and narrow it zooms. It's a bit more than I was looking to spend, but with that nice lens, it may be worth it.

Thanks to you both, and I'm still happy to hear other recommendations!

Also, the forum seems to severely limit the actions of new users until the they have posted three times... that's probably why I couldn't receive the IM. Sorry about that! I was going to fill in my profile, so people could see a bit about what we do, but that seems to be another thing that has to wait until I've done a few more legitimate posts.

Best,

Stephen

Since you mentioned a zoomie, my first thought was the dereelight as Mr Floppy mentioned, but also as he mentioned, we could also recommend a number of other lights that will meet your needs if we knew how far you needed to throw, how many lux you need to be able to hit your target with, and perhaps, how wide an area is your target likely to be.

As Timothybil mentioned, your craftsmen should be able to create an appropriately sized snoot for the light to eliminate spill, so with that in mind an aspherical will not be the only solution.

As noted, there will not be one position, throw, or angle. But since you're bringing it up again, here are a couple examples of things that may come up.

600 lux at 100' with a 10' wide beam
or at 30' with a 30' wide beam.

Or something in between. Or maybe there isn't a flashlight zoom that can cover that big a range, and I'll do something else.

Or maybe I can't get 600lux, and I have to make due with 300.

In terms of spill, a snoot only helps so much. I don't expect Source Four optics with no light outside a defined beam angle, but it's a great ideal to strive for.

Obviously I can put down a bunch of requirements that aren't at all realistic, but not knowing what's available, it seemed more flexible to give an idea of the brightness I need with lumens and see what kind of control I can get over it... I'm trying to look into the zoom range of the dereelight now...

Thanks!

On first pass, it seems as though the Xsearcher is probably too narrow for my needs. I'm having trouble finding any sort of beam angle or field angle data, but most of the talk about it is about how far it can reach, which indicates that it's probably a very narrow beam, and won't do the wider stuff I need. I'd be interested in hearing if I am mistaken though.

I think that one of my messages is awaiting moderation, but since that one popped up right away, I'll post again with the relevant information.

There is no one set way we will be using these... but here are a couple examples.

For a follow spot type effect, maybe 600lux at a distance of 100' with a 10' wide beam
For shorter range, the same 600 lux at 30' with a 30' wide beam.
or if I can only get 300lux then I'll use that... etc.

In any case, it seems like the Xsearcher may be focusable, but doesn't have a very wide zoom range.

I did some quick / rough calculations and to get 600 lux at 100 feet, you'll need a light that has a cd of about 500,000 cd.

I found this calculator, and it states 557418 cd for 600 lux @ 100 feet.
The much more doable will be the 300 lux at 30 feet requiring 25,000 cd.

Perhaps it would be feasible to hold a couple/few lights side by side so that the spill overlaps and the hot spots are spread out a bit?

I think that two Sunwayman D40C lights held side by side may work well. I don't think that one would spread out 30 feet at a 30 foot distance, probably more like 15 foot spread.

Another thought is that perhaps a dual LED bicycle light might work for the shorter distance
niteye and fenix each make 2 or 3 LED lights.

seamonkey78702 said:

In any case, it seems like the Xsearcher may be focusable, but doesn't have a very wide zoom range.

Click to expand...

It is quite a tight beam.

Another option is to use maglites and custom drivers and various aspheric lens.

Can be done cheaply but will need lots of experimenting. I started one to use a tir lens and mt-g2 led but was aiming for a 90 degree spot rather than tight spot.

What you are asking is a tall order for a flashlight. Maybe look into something with a lot of throw and have your operators carry a couple different pieces of diffusion for different beam angles. The color temperature is also going to be quite different from your source fours. They will be much bluer unless you get something in a nuetral tint. Maybe one of EagleTac's throwers in nuetral. The color temp will still be cooler though.

i don't know....if it where me, I might just rent a Honda 2000 inverter generator and use a couple of your elipsiodal spots out there and be done with it. Maybe have a guy with a small follow spot out there or a couple of people with a fresnel in hand...with gloves of course.