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Thread: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

  1. #61
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    That applies only to very old or very cheap BMS. Current top-tier BMS do an excellent job accurately tracking SOC over the entire lifespan of the pack, e.g. look up TI's impedance-tracking algorithm.
    Hi Gauss123,

    I worked my way thru that paper. I did have one question, which I hope won't be too far off topic. They mention doing coulomb counting as part of the tracking and updating process. I was under the impression coulomb counting doesn't work well for spinel structure batteries which have a 3-dimensional lattice like lithium manganese oxide? Maybe they just use it for the other lithium ion chemistries?

    Anyway, great recommendation and very informative, thanks.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  2. #62
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    I don't know of any such charger. The battery could be the problem but the fire still might start.
    well maybe I guess, but I would think that most battery faults would not cause a fire if the charger cut off as soon as the battery started to approach the 'too hot to touch' point. When fully charged my batteries can be warm but a bit above the temperature that they typically get to is the temperature I have set the charger to cut off at.
    I guess something could go terribly wrong and the battery could get warm and then continue getting hotter despite the charger having cut off, but I'd suspect that the battery could just as easily go rogue when not being charged if it is that faulty (like internal short problem or whatever).

    I do take the precaution of placing the battery on a non-flammable surface and attaching the temperature probe, to my mind I'm being careful enough and there is no need to be over the top paranoid here. I also spend more on quality batteries rather than buy the poor performing junk that claims super high capacity for half the price.
    So many lights, so little money (cause I spent it on lights). I'm not afraid of the dark, the dark is afraid of ME!

  3. #63

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Overclocker View Post


    charging singles no big deal. but when juicing this one up i don't F around...

    Jesus h Christ. where the heck is the Delorean. how many 18650's does it take to power a flux capacitor?

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by gianetics View Post
    Jesus h Christ. where the heck is the Delorean. how many 18650's does it take to power a flux capacitor?
    apparently 96 aren't enough. i'm adding 96 more...

  5. #65

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    My intellechargers turn off but lithium cells are floatable at the charging cutoff voltage or lower. They are not little sticks of dynamite. I buy only reputable cells and try to charge at of below 0.3C to prolong life. Hell, if it's over night I'll set my charger for 300 mA which is about .12 for my Japanese and Korean 2600mA cells and even lower for the fancy Panasonics.

    The only time I drag my charger out to the concrete slab in the garage is when I charge the "fire" brands that some toys come with.

    Mike
    Last edited by Arizona_Mike; 05-08-2015 at 01:05 PM.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by gianetics View Post
    Jesus h Christ. where the heck is the Delorean. how many 18650's does it take to power a flux capacitor?
    WHAT THE HELL IS A GIGAWATT?
    GOOD TINT!

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona_Mike View Post
    My intellechargers turn off but lithium cells are floatable at the charging cutoff voltage or lower. They are not little sticks of dynamite. I buy only reputable cells and try to charge at of below 0.3C to prolong life. Hell, if it's over night I'll set my charger for 300 mA which is about .12 for my Japanese and Korean 2600mA cells and even lower for the fancy Panasonics.

    The only time I drag my charger out to the concrete slab in the garage is when I charger the "fire" brands that some toys come with.

    Mike
    Is the termination voltage on the lithium ions accurate enough on an intelligent charger so that you don't have to worry about overcharging as with the sometimes difficult dV/dt method with NiMH?
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Like I said, these cells are floatable at the charding voltage but when slow charging with my intellechargers my currents in the final couple hours are in the mid 40mA range. Say 45mA at 4.2v and you are looking at less than 1/5 watt. Even at 300mA you are looking 1.3 watts dissipation even if something was very wrong with the cell and it was all going to heat not charge. Every destructive test video I've ever seen uses some pretty significant over-voltages.

    Endpoint detection on NiMH is much more complex.

    Mike

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Okay, thanks. I guess I think of float and topping off charges as being more typical of lead acid batteries, although I suppose the principle applies to most chemistries.

    Thanks for the detailed explanation.
    Last edited by magellan; 05-08-2015 at 07:28 PM.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Is charging and managing cells a major event for me...just a little.

    9-RCR123's
    6-ICR18650's
    5-IMR 18350's
    4-IMR 16340's
    4-14250's (CR2's)
    3-IMR 18650's
    2-17670's
    2-14500's

    Last edited by Nicrod; 05-09-2015 at 11:39 AM.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nicrod View Post
    Is charging and managing cells a major event for me...just a little.
    It would appear that you are single handedly trying to pay AW's kids through college!
    So many lights, so little money (cause I spent it on lights). I'm not afraid of the dark, the dark is afraid of ME!

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by KiwiMark View Post
    It would appear that you are single handedly trying to pay AW's kids through college!


    I prolly am!
    And these are just my AW brand cells !

    What can I say, I LOVE AW cells. They are my Favorites, and
    they make a darn Good product. I wouldn't trust anyone else

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Wow. Impressive collection.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  14. #74
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by gianetics View Post
    Jesus h Christ. where the heck is the Delorean. how many 18650's does it take to power a flux capacitor?
    Thanks. That gave me a good chuckle.

    Incidentally, here's some video of a similar Li-ion pack failing:

    “Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front of it, twirling a baton.”

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  15. #75
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Isn't that the 100 megaton Tsar bomb?
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    It is the Tsar, but I believe it was only ~50 megatons.
    “Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front of it, twirling a baton.”

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  17. #77
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Yes. Come to think of it, I seem to remember it was rated at 60 megatons.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  18. #78

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by magellan View Post
    Yes. Come to think of it, I seem to remember it was rated at 60 megatons.
    How many watts is that?

  19. #79

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Oh you guys are scaring me...

    Getting my first 18650 and charger (supplied by darksucks with the ready made journey), and do I have to watch it carefully towards the end?

    I assumed chargers automatically shut off after completion...
    I am planning to charge the spare via usb solar panel...

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJino View Post
    Oh you guys are scaring me...

    Getting my first 18650 and charger (supplied by darksucks with the ready made journey), and do I have to watch it carefully towards the end?

    I assumed chargers automatically shut off after completion...
    I am planning to charge the spare via usb solar panel...
    What charger and what cells will you be using?

    It's pretty much 'a walk in the park' if you buy quality stuff, but I can understand your apprehension in the beginning.

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  21. #81

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    What charger and what cells will you be using?

    It's pretty much 'a walk in the park' if you buy quality stuff, but I can understand your apprehension in the beginning.

    Chris
    For the 18650, it's the one that comes with the ready made journey.

    AW 2900mAh battery and the XTAR-MP1S charger

  22. #82
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJino View Post
    For the 18650, it's the one that comes with the ready made journey.

    AW 2900mAh battery and the XTAR-MP1S charger
    I have an Xtar MP1S charger and it under-charges my cells--4.15v-4.16v, so I consider it faulty, but it's not 'unsafe.'

    Chris
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  23. #83
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    I have an Xtar MP1S charger and it under-charges my cells--4.15v-4.16v, so I consider it faulty, but it's not 'unsafe.'
    I would give that top rating, it sound like it charges with 4.20 volt as a LiIon charger is supposed to do.
    Even if it only charged with 4.15 volt it would still be within specifications for most LiIon cells.
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
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    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  24. #84

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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    I have an Xtar MP1S charger and it under-charges my cells--4.15v-4.16v, so I consider it faulty, but it's not 'unsafe.'
    You consider it faulty because it doesn't overcharge? If you see 4.2 volts after the charge is complete, you are at least slightly overcharging, since voltage ALWAYS drops at least a little bit when you stop charging. Your charger is doing the job properly...and is within specification...and will provide slightly longer cell life compared to a charger that gives you a reading of 4.2 volts after charge. Nothing wrong with that!

  25. #85

    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrJino View Post
    Oh you guys are scaring me...
    Never mind the Tsar bomb references, people are exaggerating sometimes. How about a bit of math for perspective?

    Let's take our beloved 3400 mAh, 3.6V nominal Panasonic 18650. That's ~12 Wh energy contents.
    12 Wh = 12 J/s * 3600s = ~43 kJ or ~10 kcal. The latter being the same unit that the average person needs around 2000-2500 of per day.
    Read: the energy contents of one of the very best, fully charged 18650 is in the order of what you get when burning just over 1 gram of fat, or 2-3 grams of protein/carbohydrates.

    That's not the whole story: Li-ions contain an electrolyte, usually an organic compound (read: potentially flammable). And often a carbon compound as an electrode material. I've got some safety datasheet here, which puts both between 10-20% of a cell's weight (which is under 50g total for our beloved Panasonic cell). The rest is lithium/other metal salts (not flammable), steel can, button top, plastic wrapper etc.

    For argument's sake, let's say that carbon electrode material is just as flammable as the electrolyte. Both together, that's still just 10-20g of flammable material. In the order of what's inside a cigarette lighter.

    That material needs oxygen to burn, so it can't burn until it gets out of the cell. If a cell leaks, there's no pressure behind it and very little material would leak. If a cell vents, that's because materials inside are heated beforehand by electrical energy, which is quite limited as shown above. So if for example you drive a nail through the cell, what's needed to heat its contents to the point of venting, comes from that relatively small ~43 kJ electrical charge. In the case of over-charging, some of it could come from the charger (but charge current will likely be low by the time a cell is fully charged). The larger portion of energy released if a cell's contents catches fire, is only released after the cell is heated to the point where it vents, and the flammable vapors mix with air. That is, IF those vapors catch fire - by no means a given! If not, the only energy released is the electric charge.

    That's of course if the cell's built-in safety features fail (of which there are multiple ones in a good Li-ion). And -in the case of a protected cell- the protection circuit as well. In any off: smaller type (14500, 16340 etc), a not-fully charged, an old cell, a LiFePO4 cell, ...Fire junk with 1/5th the stated capacity, you've got much less electrical energy available to self-heat the cell.

    Of course you have things like a 6-cell light, where 5 cells can dump their charge in the 1 unlucky cell that was empty. And in the case of flashlights, vent gasses may have nowhere to go, turning that metal tube into a small pipebomb of sorts. But charging is generally considered the most 'dangerous' step, and I'm not doing that with the cells inside a metal tube. Once they're in a flashlight, I'm taking energy out of the cells, not putting more energy in them.

    This morning got a small cut using a kitchen knife. Must have happened dozens of times over the course of my life. Same thing with sharp edges on cardboard boxes, blister packaging, etc. Li-ions otoh: have been using them in one form or another since they appeared in consumer devices. Never, ever got hurt using them, not even the slightest, in any way whatsoever.

    So yes, charging Li-ions outside lights, on a table or kitchen top with no flammable stuff like curtains etc near it, seems like common sense. Same with removing cells from charger when full. But other than that, let's not get carried away...

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona_Mike View Post
    Every destructive test video I've ever seen uses some pretty significant over-voltages.
    Yep, there's quite a few YouTube vids around of venting & burning cells. Notice how virtually without exception, such videos also involve a car battery, hooking up to mains AC, pumping the charge of a full pack into 1 cell, etc. Aka external power input.

    More realistic tests sometimes manage a "cell vented" result, but hardly ever make it to "vent with flame". Note that the "with flame" part is rather important for how much damage is done in real-life failures (room filled with nasty fumes vs. potentially your house on fire).

  26. #86
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    I'm still new to the game using an Xtar panzer. I only have olight 2600 and 3400 cells in 18650. Every few weeks I'll top them off. I'm not allowed to mention lights and batteries at home anymore. The woman is tired of it haha. My main buddy at work is even tired of it, I told him whatever ppl care about this stuff. When he asked who I said with a proud stern voice, my Internet buddies..ha

  27. #87
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by HKJ View Post
    I would give that top rating, it sound like it charges with 4.20 volt as a LiIon charger is supposed to do.
    Even if it only charged with 4.15 volt it would still be within specifications for most LiIon cells.
    Quote Originally Posted by thedoc007 View Post
    You consider it faulty because it doesn't overcharge? If you see 4.2 volts after the charge is complete, you are at least slightly overcharging, since voltage ALWAYS drops at least a little bit when you stop charging. Your charger is doing the job properly...and is within specification...and will provide slightly longer cell life compared to a charger that gives you a reading of 4.2 volts after charge. Nothing wrong with that!
    Well maybe "faulty" was a poor choice of words.

    I'll say that it charges substantially less than my WP2 II and my VP2, which as HKJ has pointed out, fit with Xtar's M.O. of slightly undercharging cells--not a bad thing for li-ions.

    In this regard, I think that it's at the lower end of the 'acceptable' scale, especially for somebody that doesn't, as a rule, undercharge his cells in the interest of longevity.

    I have the Xtar MC1+ and the XP1 USB chargers coming in the mail today, or tomorrow and I'll see how they perform.

    Chris
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  28. #88
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    I have the Xtar MC1+ and the XP1 USB chargers coming in the mail today, or tomorrow and I'll see how they perform.
    Generally this charge voltage is not related to the actual charge model, but varies with component tolerances, i.e. if you buy a pile of one model you may get charge voltages from 4.15 to 4.25 volt, with most somewhere in the middle.
    My website with battery and charger information: lygte-info.
    More than 1000 reviews of batteries, charges and other stuff.
    Compare 18650 LiIon batteries or smaller (RCR123, 16340, 14500, 10450) LiIon batteries.

  29. #89
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    How many watts is that?
    Yeah, anyone know the conversion?
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Is charging the 18650 a major event in your life?

    <<Read: the energy contents of one of the very best, fully charged 18650 is in the order of what you get when burning just over 1 gram of fat, or 2-3 grams of protein/carbohydrates.>>


    As Mr. Spock would say, fascinating.


    Ha-ha. I had no idea I was carrying the equivalent of thousands of dollars of batteries around my waist. :-)
    Last edited by magellan; 05-21-2015 at 06:51 PM.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

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