Are they for real?

http://www.piaa.com/LEDbulb

They look like generic crap, even have a fan on the back (probably sleeve bearing)... is it possible these are legal for DOT fog lamps?

electromage said:

http://www.piaa.com/LEDbulb

They look like generic crap, even have a fan on the back (probably sleeve bearing)... is it possible these are legal for DOT fog lamps?

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Overpriced junk...just say no to the desire to make the owners/investors in PIAA rich and your wallet $300.00 lighter.

Fog lamps aren't Federally regulated; there's no such thing as a "DOT fog lamp". That said, no, you're right, this is garbage. Very expensive garbage.

PIAA's most successful product is pure 100% baloney. They tell lies up one side and down the other about every product they sell, and it's always been this way. The bulbs you linked look like generic crap because that's what they are, only with the PIAA brand name on them. Those "three" photos on the linked page are very likely really just one pic with Photoshop color effects. The yellow color is not "2800K". The claim that they're "engineered with a brilliant cut-line and anti-glare technology" is word soup that doesn't mean anything.

I recall walking around PIAA's booth at the SEMA show and hearing one of their reps vigorously lying to an asker: "There are a lot of companies that make car bulbs and lamps that aren't legal or safe, but PIAA always takes the legal path, and we can do it because all of our R&D and manufacturing is in-house". Absolutely none of that is true. Most of their halogen bulbs are PFR (purchase for resale) from Sylvania -- the same fine folks who got whalloped ($30 million worth) for their own falsehoods.

There are some very interesting LED retrofits on the market from Philips that objectively/measurably work surprisingly well in some fog lamps designed to use H8, H11, or H16 bulbs. Big surprise (not): they don't look anything like the junk PIAA's hawking. But even the Philips ones don't work in any-all lamps, and that's a problem. Another problem is that people are going to put these in headlamps despite the "fog lamps only" labelling. Headlamps are much more safety-critical, and nobody knows how well they will or won't work.

I think it's inevitable that there will be decent-to-excellent LED retrofits for a growing number of vehicle bulbs that will work in a growing number of vehicle lamps. But I think it's even more inevitable that there will be a lot more unsafe, fraudulent garbage on the market, a lot sooner. :-(

If there's no federal regulation (not that I don't believe you), could you shed some light on these? Rigid is a subsidiary of Truck-Lite now, right? Why are they claiming that?

PIAA has always irked me since so many trucks run 2100 HIDs all the time.

That "DOT/SAE compliant" on the Rigid lamps you linked is just a case of sloppy language. The actual claim is apparently that these lamps comply with SAE J583, the SAE technical standard for front fog lamps.

Rigid did just get purchased by Truck-Lite.

-Virgil- said:

That "DOT/SAE compliant" on the Rigid lamps you linked is just a case of sloppy language. The actual claim is apparently that these lamps comply with SAE J583, the SAE technical standard for front fog lamps.

Rigid did just get purchased by Truck-Lite.

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OK, so they are compliant with applicable regulations but the "DOT" part doesn't mean anything? Good to know.

It's nauseating to see how prevalent this kind of product has become. Specify one different visual characteristic, ship en masse from China (or the like), sprinkle whatever "proprietary in-hoüse" marketing you can come up with, and sell each set for, well, you all saw the price.

As an aside, Philips is really not helping things, even if what they put out themselves is "technically compliant in some applications - check our guide". But that's been talked about before, so I'll return to my cave.

Franco said:

As an aside, Philips is really not helping things, even if what they put out themselves is "technically compliant in some applications - check our guide". But that's been talked about before, so I'll return to my cave.

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This right here, may be the end of my battle... Phillips is making my job harder to the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 degree... what they are doing will pretty much kill any ability I have to enforce and defend my actions in the court room when it comes to certain lights. Keep up the good work Phillips.

I would give anything for NHTSA to stop this "check our guide, works in some vehicles, but not all" mess they have going on... /me sighs

drmalenko said:

This right here, may be the end of my battle...

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I'm really sorry to hear that, drmalenko. The big picture may be discouraging, but we've all still some little power to improve things, even if it just feels like we're moving grains of sand instead of mountains.

I would give anything for NHTSA to stop this "check our guide, works in some vehicles, but not all" mess they have going on... /me sighs

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Sounds like a fairy tale! Hey, maybe the next Disney hit could be about the government agency that overcame all odds...

(Ahem)

♫ Let it go, Let it go
NHTSA won't allow the sale of this junk anymore ♫

♫ I don't care
For PIAA lights or LED
Let NHTSA rage onnnnnnn
...with drmalenko in jubilee! ♫

drmalenko said:

This right here, may be the end of my battle... Phillips is making my job harder to the 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 degree... what they are doing will pretty much kill any ability I have to enforce and defend my actions in the court room when it comes to certain lights.

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That is a real shame. Of course, it's not like state laws have even partially kept up with the last 70-some years of vehicle lighting evolution. What's needed is a law requiring proof that any modification to a vehicle's safety equipment does not make that equipment noncompliant with the applicable technical standards and regulations, or else the modified equipment is considered noncompliant and illegal. Of course it'll never happen because of SEMA and the other bottom-dwellers.

-Virgil- said:

That is a real shame. Of course, it's not like state laws have even partially kept up with the last 70-some years of vehicle lighting evolution. What's needed is a law requiring proof that any modification to a vehicle's safety equipment does not make that equipment noncompliant with the applicable technical standards and regulations, or else the modified equipment is considered noncompliant and illegal. Of course it'll never happen because of SEMA and the other bottom-dwellers.

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If it's any consolation, in 10 years, likely 90% of new vehicle lighting will be LED based. With any hope, all it will be so custom in terms of form factor, that off the shelf upgrades will be difficult ... or hopefully at least not economically viable for the people selling the crap. Just as likely is the ability to create any sort of "wow" factor will be reduced such that the market for such products will dry up.

Franco said:

I'm really sorry to hear that, drmalenko. The big picture may be discouraging, but we've all still some little power to improve things, even if it just feels like we're moving grains of sand instead of mountains.

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I was only "moving grains of sand instead of mountains" to begin with, as was any officer enforcing the lighting laws... But what is happening right now with "some" led's working in "some" fixtures is going to shoot holes in what abilities I currently have..

Don't worry, Im not giving up the good fight, I will continue on and push forward..., I spent 15 minutes on the side of the road last night "educating" a driver (by educating I mean he wanted to know his options for the best legal and SAFE lights).... It was one of those times where he acutally wanted to hear what I had to say, and another rare instance where he will follow through with fixing his vehicle... So that is a ticket he wont have to pay, it will be dropped once his vehicle is compliant again.. hell, I even told him I would help him on my personal time with anything light related to his vehicle, all he had to do was call me, and then gave him the number.

I'm at a point where I spend (up to hours on at least one recent occasion) "talking lights" on the side of the road with the drivers... believe it or not, I have had, in the past several weeks, people that want to know "why"... which is something I love to explain to them (no sarcasm here).. and the ones that are genuinely interested I gladly spend the time with, to include my personal time.


.. Then of course there is the guy that gave me the one finger wave after I gave him a ticket just last week.. next time he gets the entire rest of the night to think it over in an unfamiliar "hotel", maybe then he will understand.. It is that serious.... oh well, his bad.

SemiMan said:

If it's any consolation, in 10 years, likely 90% of new vehicle lighting will be LED based. With any hope, all it will be so custom in terms of form factor, that off the shelf upgrades will be difficult ... or hopefully at least not economically viable for the people selling the crap. Just as likely is the ability to create any sort of "wow" factor will be reduced such that the market for such products will dry up.

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Funny.. I had the same thought, we are on the brink of being so advanced that we really cant add much to what is already there. This is a day I cant wait for.. Not sure what I will do at work once this happens, hopefully I will be retired =-)

The only problem is this, I currently encounter cars 30 years old still being driven on the roadways. Eventually, hopefully, what you said will take place.

-Virgil- said:

That is a real shame. Of course, it's not like state laws have even partially kept up with the last 70-some years of vehicle lighting evolution. What's needed is a law requiring proof that any modification to a vehicle's safety equipment does not make that equipment noncompliant with the applicable technical standards and regulations, or else the modified equipment is considered noncompliant and illegal. Of course it'll never happen because of SEMA and the other bottom-dwellers.

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As much as I hate the thought of "vehicle inspections" at this point it seems as though it is a necessity, at least for the lights. (South Carolina does not have vehicle inspections, although we used to years ago.
Done. Family forum. Bill
Feel free to edit that ^^.

-Virgil- said:

T What's needed is a law requiring proof that any modification to a vehicle's safety equipment does not make that equipment noncompliant with the applicable technical standards and regulations, or else the modified equipment is considered noncompliant and illegal. Of course it'll never happen because of SEMA and the other bottom-dwellers.

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Why not? Australia has had it for a very long time. We are permitted to make modifications to a certain point and after that the modification requires "engineering". That is assessment, by an appropriately qualified engineer who is approved by the (State) Government and who may require whatever testing he thinks necessary. If approved the vehicle is issued with a plate which is then affixed to confirm that the modification has been approved. Most commonly done for tyres, wheels, suspension, seating, body modifications but could be done for lighting too.

The aftermarket industry supports it, offering modifications that would otherwise be illegal but, if known that they can be engineered, then they make more sales and the customer gets something that wouldn't otherwise be allowed but has been assessed as safe to go on the roads. Win-win. Well, actually win-win-win, because the Engineer gets $700 to write his report.

SemiMan said:

If it's any consolation, in 10 years, likely 90% of new vehicle lighting will be LED based. With any hope, all it will be so custom in terms of form factor, that off the shelf upgrades will be difficult ... or hopefully at least not economically viable for the people selling the crap. Just as likely is the ability to create any sort of "wow" factor will be reduced such that the market for such products will dry up.

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Understand what you're saying, but think you may be underestimating the imagination and resources of the aftermarket industry. There's an awful lot of money at stake.

NFT5 said:

Understand what you're saying, but think you may be underestimating the imagination and resources of the aftermarket industry. There's an awful lot of money at stake.

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Where there's a will, there's a way. Very true. And where there is money, there is also usually a will.

drmalenko said:

As much as I hate the thought of "vehicle inspections" at this point it seems as though it is a necessity, at least for the lights. (South Carolina does not have vehicle inspections, although we used to years ago.

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Surprised to hear that, since states without vehicle inspections usually heap those duties (i.e. vehicle checks, properly running equipment) onto law enforcement officers.

Arkansas is the same way as South Carolina, and I can absolutely tell you that many vehicles on the road are very dangerous. Bald tires, brakes and suspension in bad order, (what) exhaust systems, and the lighting is atrocious. HID kits in headlights and foglight, odd and dangerous off-road lights, misaimed lights, bed lights on while driving, headlights that are out or off in pouring rain and fog, and so on. It is literally every third vehicle that has some kind of lighting deficiency or problem.

I have to say that LEOs were actually really good and effective in the two towns that I have lived in Arkansas, in every way other than lighting. They just seemed to have a "let live" attitude. Lack of education about that particular subject is probably to blame.

Its human nature...some people always want to improve things, their lighting included.

As noted/observed over and over again, they tend to believe what they want to believe, and, education about lighting is analogous to education about religion or politics for some. There will always be the moral equivalent of "Believers" in PIAA, etc, and those who insist that 10k color temp is brighter than 3k color temp, because if 3k is good, 10k must be better, etc.

There is a lot of dogma out there about lighting that is wrong, and as mentioned, there are a lot of old pony cars, etc, that are going to get modifications....and, that inevitably leads to the dogma and pony car show we currently see.

TEEJ said:

that inevitably leads to the dogma and pony car show we currently see.

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Ugghhhhh!

We're drifting off-topic, but I would like to see more vehicle inspections...in Washington we only have the emissions testing...beyond that there's really nobody "looking". I've seen a lot of scary stuff, bad tracking, unbalanced wheels, flat tires, badly broken windshields, broken or missing mirrors, rusted frames, multiple donut spares on one car, lamps hanging by the wires, straight pipes, it goes on...

As far as lighting goes, green and red in the front, running 6+ auxiliary lamps, more hid "retrofits" than you can shake a stick at - it's really an uphill battle.

If we had TÜV style inspections here they'd probably take 25% of cars off the road right away.

electromage said:

We're drifting off-topic, but I would like to see more vehicle inspections...in Washington we only have the emissions testing...beyond that there's really nobody "looking". I've seen a lot of scary stuff, bad tracking, unbalanced wheels, flat tires, badly broken windshields, broken or missing mirrors, rusted frames, multiple donut spares on one car, lamps hanging by the wires, straight pipes, it goes on...

As far as lighting goes, green and red in the front, running 6+ auxiliary lamps, more hid "retrofits" than you can shake a stick at - it's really an uphill battle.

If we had TÜV style inspections here they'd probably take 25% of cars off the road right away.

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In NJ, we had VERY intensive inspections, but, due to budget constraints, etc, they dropped EVERYTHING EXCEPT EMISSIONS. So, we go to inspection, and, they look at your dash light, stick in the OBD reader and anal probe, and that's it.

You can have poiple headlights and a rubber bulb horn, and bald tires, and, as long as emissions pass, you get your sticker.

Cops can (CAN) still ticket people for obvious infractions (Signal light out, etc...), but, the overall level of maintenance IS visibly degraded.