ATV project (need a little help)

hey guys heres a few pics of the progress im making on my atv project...Just have to make a couple more solders and drill a few more holes to mount it.




The double mount is the housing for 2 Red 1 watters, and the other brackets will support the blue 3 watters...I think im going to use thermal epoxy on them to help disipate heat from the HS.

The red setup will be used for a taillight, and the blues will be mounted on the underside of my atv plastcs, one in the fron't one in the rear to produce a blue glow wherever I may ride /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif Hopefully ill get to light them up tonight, thats the plan anyways.

The project box contains a current limiting circuit that converts and stabalized AC to DC then feeds the LED's their proper current. They flicker a bit when the bike is not reved because the voltage on the bike varies with RPMs, and the voltage and current are constantly changing.

Im hoping these LEDs will take the abuse better than the neons everyone else uses. I have had bad luck even with strobes in the past because the circuit boxes they come with don't support the vibrations and eventually the circuit falls apart.

Re: ATV project

Hey intoxicated,

What are you using for a circut...? I am going to be making a aux. headlamp for my KTM using 3watt TWAK's. I bought the headlamp kit but it royally stinks at low rpm's! My bike does not have a battery... I will use a battery pack if I can't get the min. constant current I need.

Does anyone know if a Downboy 1000 will work for this application?

Re: ATV project

what is a downboy 1000? Im still new here and learning.

Got it all setup today, but sorry no pics, the Red taillight stoped working. The box is actually 2 current limiting circuits. I was running the following for the taillight

1 LM317HVT and I was using 2, 3.7 ohm resistors in parallel, in series with another 2 3.7 ohm resistors in parallel. The resistors were only 1/2 watt so i wanted to be sure they would withstand the heat, this should give me a 1 watt 3.7 ohm resistor right? so 1.25/3.7 is 343 and some change miliamps. The red Star-O's were run in series, and had some large HS's epoxied with AS epoxy they worked for a while then shut off /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif .

Anyone have any idea what would fry them? Or maybe something fried in my circuit, but I have no idea why! SOMEONE HELP!

the blues don't light up till im on the throttle, but boy do they sure look cool! Light up the entire underside of the bike perfectly. Ill take some pictures tomarrow when Im out at Gordons Well.

Re: ATV project

I'm not 100% positive, but I believe the resistor set-up you described would give you the equivilent of 1.85 ohms 1 watt resistor. [EDITED OOPS... I DIDN'T TAKE NOTICE OF THE OTHER 2 RESISTORS IN YOUR POST....]

I think we need someone to interject that knows what they are talking about..... I could use some pointers because this spring I would like to have something installed on my bike, useing the bike power system and not a battery pack...

Help someone....!!!

Re: ATV project

[ QUOTE ]
Justintoxicated said:
what is a downboy 1000? Im still new here and learning.

[/ QUOTE ]

The DownBoy 1000 is a buck converter available from dat2zip's sandwich shoppe. It takes a voltage higher than whats needed to drive a LS as input, and outputs a constant 1000mA output.

Your set up with the 317 sounds correct, though right now I'm half asleep and not thinking too well... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Perhaps you could try using some batteries to check if the LS are really fried yet.

Re: ATV project

I'll check when I get back, im not miSsing the weekends ride over a taillight heh /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif But thanks for your help, perhaps it was a defective part in the circuit? Ill test the stars with a batt soon.

edit: damn I can't type early in the morning lol

Re: ATV project

[ QUOTE ]
Lucien said:
[ QUOTE ]
Justintoxicated said:
what is a downboy 1000? Im still new here and learning.

[/ QUOTE ]


The DownBoy 1000 is a buck converter available from dat2zip's sandwich shoppe. It takes a voltage higher than whats needed to drive a LS as input, and outputs a constant 1000mA output.

Your set up with the 317 sounds correct, though right now I'm half asleep and not thinking too well... /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif Perhaps you could try using some batteries to check if the LS are really fried yet.

[/ QUOTE ]


Can you provide more info?

It does not sound much different than what I have made.

Harebawl, I don't think that would be any better than doing what I have, someone correct me if im wrong? The trouble is our bikes don't put out many amps untill they rev up, or volts for that matter. You will need the battery from my understanding, or maybe you should just always be on the throttle and ride faster ...

Had an O-ring failure probably my fault) in my NOSS head and I leaked coolant into the cylinders and the bike was overheating, so Im back early..The ATV is ok, but I could not find an oring untill monday anyways...what a wast of a $200 trip...Maybe ill look at my circuit tomarrow to see what part crapped out. Ill be sure to test the luxeons too Saving $20 would really help about now...

Re: ATV project

The Luxeons are toast, after some testing they don;t light up at all /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif

as for the circuit, I pulle dit out of the project box. I don;t see anything fried either.

The circuit also appears to be functioning...But I can;t properly test it untill I fix my ATV. Some coolant leaked into the head and I scuffed my cylinder wall /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif.

I think I have it fixed, but I just need some coolant. Anyone have any ideas whats going on?

I have no clue why it toasted my LED's. SHoudl I jsut rebuild the whole circuit?

Someone with experience please help!

Re: ATV project

Intoxicated, Do you know how well the voltage regulation works in the bike ? Is it constant 12v+- throughout the rpm range? Also, do you know what kind of current the magneto is putting out at low rpm?

My bike is a 2 stroke, and at low rpm the light is totally useless, I can navigate if we are moving along steady, but when we get into the woods, and mud holes, it's dark in there at night, and I can't see poop.

I wanted to run 2 3watt luxeons, overdriven should be plenty bright enough for these situations... I am hoping the bike puts out close to 1-2 amps at low rpm... or altlest 700 ma at low rpm, so maybe I can run atleast 1 lux at spec anyway.????? When I need the light I am going very slow usually because of hazards, so I think the lux will be fine after seeing my 3cell DD 3 watt!!!

Re: ATV project

[ QUOTE ]
harebawl said:
Intoxicated, Do you know how well the voltage regulation works in the bike ? Is it constant 12v+- throughout the rpm range? Also, do you know what kind of current the magneto is putting out at low rpm?

My bike is a 2 stroke, and at low rpm the light is totally useless, I can navigate if we are moving along steady, but when we get into the woods, and mud holes, it's dark in there at night, and I can't see poop.

I wanted to run 2 3watt luxeons, overdriven should be plenty bright enough for these situations... I am hoping the bike puts out close to 1-2 amps at low rpm... or altlest 700 ma at low rpm, so maybe I can run atleast 1 lux at spec anyway.????? When I need the light I am going very slow usually because of hazards, so I think the lux will be fine after seeing my 3cell DD 3 watt!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

the voltage regulator does a great job of limiting the volts to 14.4 (max)

At low RPMs there is very little curret or voltage, but then again I have not tried unpluging my 150 watts worth of halogens in the front. Im also running an aftermarket stator that boosted the bike about 100 watts max. www.rickystator.com is a great place to buy a stator and rick is very helpful. GIve them a call, but you might not wanna talk about luxeons, just their specs (700ma etc)

I don;t ride woods or mud, I have a Yamaha Banshee and mostly Im shooting through the dunes near wide open throttle, or sand dragging down the strip. I jsut poop to a lower gear and rev up if I need some light.

Anyone have any ideas what fried my luxeons? Im afraid to hook them up to the same circuit, But I did not leave enough room to re-build the circuit, so I would have to re-do the entire thing...Or maybe it just shorted out when I shoved it into the project box? Im not sure where to go from here? Any Suggestions?

Re: ATV project

Ok I pulled the lights off to test them individually

On of the red luxeons still lights up nice and bright, the other is toast. So perhaps the circuit works correctly.

Is it likely that I just got a defective luxeon?

Has anyone else got a luxeon that would not run at spec?

Im going crazy, but im having the circuit tested at my dads work to see if it is working correctly...I just don't understand what killed one of my lights /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Is it common to get bad Stars?

Here is a picture of the ATV the light kit will be installed on /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif


If you look towards the back (under the FMF sticker) you can see my old taillight installed (Cyan LEDs)

Re: ATV project

How common is it to get a bad Luxeon Star?

Someone must know you guys do so many mods!...Otherwise I can't figure out what happened?!?!?!

Re: ATV project

[ QUOTE ]
Justintoxicated said:
How common is it to get a bad Luxeon Star?

Someone must know you guys do so many mods!...Otherwise I can't figure out what happened?!?!?!

[/ QUOTE ]

My high school electronics teacher once said that there are three things that kill solid state devices; Too much heat, unstable voltage and vibration. In your application you might have all three.

The vibration should not be a major factor, but it's amazing how often things on circuit boards bounce around when the subjected to high G forces.

The heat should be taken care of by your heat sinks IF there is room for air to circulate over the heat sinks. If they are within an enclosure they don't do much good.

The voltage readings may or may not be as stable as you think. If you have a meter that displays 'max' readings it may show momentary spikes. I'd run it from a small SLA battery and let the battery charge from the bike's alternator.

I've not heard of a lot of problems with bad Luxeons out of the box, but that's not much of a statement.

Daniel.

Re: ATV project

Given the 'dirty' source of power that you are using I'd suspect a voltage spike killed one of the Luxeons - once it was dead O/C then the other one would have been 'protected'...

Even though you have a constant current setup with the 317 - it will not respond fast enough to prevent a fast spike getting through the system.

Does the bike have a battery - or is the output straight from the alternator/regulator?

george.

Re: ATV project

The ATV has no Alternator, or battery, and it would add too much weight to a drag racing bike;not to mention a couple hundread $$.

If im limiting the current how could there be a voltage spike? Im not arguing I really just do not understand. I had run some Cyan lights previously off the same circuit (only slightly larger resistor (4 OHM instead of 3.7) fine, the voltage never peaks higher than 14.4V from the source (voltage regulator for 12V but it tends to go a little over)but the circuit should handle over 30V's which it will never see anyways. I hear you guys on the vibrations, but the circuit was all insulated, I even siliconed all the visable bare wire ends on the bottem, then siliconed it into the box. The box was screwed down tightly to prevent any movement, and was then mounted using rubber gromits that held the origional taillight in place (they were to reduce vibration to the normal taillight bulb).

The voltage ranges from about .4 to 14.4 and can peak in about 1-2 seconds then drop back down, but thats also why im using a capacitor to help smooth out the flow.

So what do you think could have gone wrong besides a bad LED? the Vf is about 4-5V right (for a red Luxeon 1 watt Star-O? I epoxied another set of stars onto HS's today but im a little skeptical in hooking them up to the circuit.

Thanks for everyones help and ideas, keepem comin! /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif

Oh yea I should add the red only lasted a few seconds, and the bike was not moving, just parked in the garage, the blue 3 watters @ 1 amp had no problems remaining on, and they were actaully on less massive Heatsinks. When I touched the HS it was still cold to the touch, and when I pryed it off the HS (using the freezer trick) the AS epoxy had bonded nicely, so it was transfering heat.

Im running outa ideas now though, what could I use to compleat the circuit so that I can test the amps? would a 4ohm 1 watt resistor work?

Re: ATV project

Datasheet shows a Vf of 3.5V max for a red 1W luxeon - 5V would be a major overdrive!

I looked at your link - so basically all you have is a magneto style generator.

You may have been unlucky and just got a bad luxeon - I haven't had any fail in hundreds of whites ones I've used EXCEPT for when I have accidently spiked the Luxeons with a higher voltage (>8V) momentarily.

I would look at some kind of zener clamps across each of the Luxeons (in parallel with each one) - like say 4V or so. Get 1W ones - that will at least somewhat protect the LED if a spike sneaks through. If you can find a low voltage MOV that wouldn't hurt to have across the Luxeons either.

The 317 regulator your have will not necessarily current limit instantaneously - spikes are very fast transients that can do major damage to electronics. Manufacturers go out of the way when design rugged regulators that can withstand the harsh environment of 12V automotive power. There are load dumps and spikes up beyond 40V in a car - most regulators are designed to withstand 60V and reverse voltage etc. A 317 regulator was not designed to survive in automotive use. It may work just fine for a long time - but eventually something nasty will get past it.

That's just my 'thinking' - if you have access to an oscilloscope it would be instructive to hook it up to the output of the bike and rev it through its range and see what the voltage looks like...

george.

Re: ATV project

[ QUOTE ]
georges80 said:
Datasheet shows a Vf of 3.5V max for a red 1W luxeon - 5V would be a major overdrive!

I looked at your link - so basically all you have is a magneto style generator.

You may have been unlucky and just got a bad luxeon - I haven't had any fail in hundreds of whites ones I've used EXCEPT for when I have accidently spiked the Luxeons with a higher voltage (>8V) momentarily.

I would look at some kind of zener clamps across each of the Luxeons (in parallel with each one) - like say 4V or so. Get 1W ones - that will at least somewhat protect the LED if a spike sneaks through. If you can find a low voltage MOV that wouldn't hurt to have across the Luxeons either.

The 317 regulator your have will not necessarily current limit instantaneously - spikes are very fast transients that can do major damage to electronics. Manufacturers go out of the way when design rugged regulators that can withstand the harsh environment of 12V automotive power. There are load dumps and spikes up beyond 40V in a car - most regulators are designed to withstand 60V and reverse voltage etc. A 317 regulator was not designed to survive in automotive use. It may work just fine for a long time - but eventually something nasty will get past it.

That's just my 'thinking' - if you have access to an oscilloscope it would be instructive to hook it up to the output of the bike and rev it through its range and see what the voltage looks like...

george.


[/ QUOTE ]

ok ill look into those zener clamps, not sure what a MOV is though?

So Basicaly your saying that my im going about the way I did this all wrong? The capacitor won't help with voltage spikes? (all I have is a multimeter) but when I rev and cut the engine I have never sceen ti go past 14.4, Im guessing the LM317 would have to be run out of spec to allow it to jump past the desired 350ma?

Im not sure what I should do at this point. Junk the entire circuit and buy an expensive one? That would not be very fun and would cost lots more /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif Ill have to tell me friend to give me back the LED's i sold him and made for him too then, and tell him that although they have f\been working for a few months they might momentarily die? Theres no way my bike will jump to 60V like you said its jsut a Flywheel and stator that generates teh power, which is then regulated by a regulator (AC power) so it also has to jump through rectifier and capacitor before it even reaches the LM317???

NOW IM WORRIED /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Re: ATV project

The capacitor will help - but without knowing all the details of the AC/DC regulator and your choice of components and wiring it is hard to second guess where spikes or transients may get through.

MOV is a metal oxide varistor - their resistance drops as the voltage goes up - they respond VERY quickly - like in less than 1ns - and are commonly used to provide protection against short duration/high energy spikes.

A multimeter will not show spikes or transients - it just doesn't respond fast enough.

Maybe you have no such problems in your AC/DC regulator - is that your design or something off the shelf? I'm just raising the point that spikes can & will destroy semiconductor devices and aren't predictable.

At the very least I'd put a Zener across each of the Luxeons (put the stripe end of the Zener to the positive connection of the Luxeon) - it can't hurt.

Good luck.
george.

Re: ATV project

BajaDesigns has Regulator/Rectifier and battery pack that will probably fix the problem

The battery is fairly small and weights about 12oz. Much tougher than any SLA.
BajaDesigns
Go into the motorcycle store and search on 122003 (for the Regulator/Rectifier) and 120300 (for the Battery pack)

You could probably make the battery pack yourself and save $$. It is just 10 AA rechargeables with heat shrink holding it together.

I have been using this setup on my XR650R for a couple of years (with 2 trips to Baja!) with no problems. Keeps voltage at about 13.5v. The DC is clean enough to run GPS & radio. I do not currently run Luxeon's but after seeing your nice mounting brackets, I am getting the urge to add some.

Re: ATV project

but its still just using a voltage regulator, and it has batteries instead of a capacitor, I think its kinda the same thing, only mine is less consistant and only costs $10 /ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif, but LED's are made to blink etc so that difference would be negligable I would think. You have a GPS on your dirk bike? thats pretty sweet, id be afraid to crash or something then again I want one on my atv too lol..

Where do you ride?

Illf ind out what happened with the circuit testing tonight. I would guess if it was a voltage problem liek was mentioned I would fried the Cyan lights the first ride, since these blew in the first minute or so. + the blue ones are still working fine, so they should have also fried since teh Blues were on a 317T and the Reds were on a 317HVT (Higher voltage) regulator. Please correct me if im wrong. But my votlage regulator was made to match the aftermarket 200Wtt stator, and I think my headlights would also possibly have friend in that case?

But I am listening and paying attention to all these ideas, at least I have some things to look out for.