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Thread: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

  1. #61

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Hi guys, I got my hands on a few of these bad boys but I have no idea how to mount them. I searched the interwebs but all they show is how to mount regular SMDs - so basically no heatsink. I'm planning to drive a single chip at 1000mA and have a heatsink to help cool it. I thought the electrical connections will be on top like the XPEs but they're on the bottom. How do I wire a connection and cool it at the same time? Any help would be greatly appreciated. And mods please move this post if it's in the wrong thread, I just thought it was relevent. Thanks in advance.




  2. #62
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Get yourself a metal-core PCB (MCPCB) for an XP-G, as it's the same footprint (just google "xp-g mcpcb"). Copper board prefered, direct-to-copper best.
    That said, this all involves reflow soldering, not really made for hand-soldering.

    I think there have been a few threads here in the distant past where people soldered wires directly to the back and a copper pillar to the middle pad for heat extraction, but you may be better off just getting hold of pre-soldered boards and on-selling these chips if it's not something you've done before (unless you know of someone local to help you)

  3. #63

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Hey @RoGuE, thanks for the quick response. Are there any advantages one over the other whether reflow soldering or copper pillar in terms of heat management?

  4. #64
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Have you got any xpg leds on stars lay about? I've used a jet lighter in the past to remove leds and replace with upgraded versions.



    From this thread http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...move-from-star

    Ps, is that an Ultrafire A10 in that photo. I've been edc'ing one of those for years :-)

  5. #65

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    @Paul Baldwin, that is a GREAT idea. I'm watching all these reflow videos on Youtube and it just seems like a hassle for mounting a single LED. It has it's purpose for multiple component PCBs, but there has got to be another simpler way. Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?

    P.S. Oh yea that's an Ultrafire A10, I've had for a while as my EDC as well. Now it's the Ultrafire U20S (the black flashlight in the picture)

  6. #66
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?
    Well theoretically you could just use a soldering iron to apply solder to the contacts (electrical and thermal), then pop the LED on top and heat up from underneath to reflow. But you would need additional flux, as the flux core from your solder would disappear in the initial run. Might be able to do something without flux, but could be a bit iffy. And might work better if you apply solder (not too much!) to BOTH the star AND the LED beforehand, might(!) reduce the need for flux?

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Try Rogue's idea if your soldering iron is up to it. I suggested an existing star as when I have de-soldered there was still a little solder left on the star from the previous led. You only need a tiny amount, too much and you end up with a ball of solder that appears at the side of the led after re-flow anyway. The lighter I used was over the top I think tbh, you could probably get away with a single jet? Or use one of the other suggestions in that thread.
    What do you plan on using these for? I thought they would be good for an optic fibre project I have in mind if I can find a suitable lense?

  8. #68

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    @Paul Baldwin, my project does involve optical fiber for a custom water-cooled PC. I was struggling to find a lens for my current domed LEDs and how to get the best LED to fiber light transition. I only found out about the XP-L HI a week ago, it couldn't have been better timing since the LED just hit the market. I was actually planning on using dedomed XML's I have laying around but the beauty with these new LEDs is that I can now have the 5mm optic fiber sit directly flat on top of the LED. Hopefully that would minimize light lost.

  9. #69
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Now that's an interesting concept! A bit of KISS may work ok :-)

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Where can you buy these on a 20star?
    Once things leave my hands I am not responsible for what happens.

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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by chipwillis View Post
    Where can you buy these on a 20star?
    International Outdoor Store has them in V3 on a copper noctigon dtp star.

  12. #72

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    degarb, thanks for the response. I understand that the XPL, output wise, is more efficient than the XPG2, which means more lumens/watt, which can also mean (and it does in this case) more lumens/mA. What I don't know is, in a P60 drop-in, whether it takes more lumens, or more mA if you like, from the XPL HI to throw the same distance as a XPG2, assuming each uses a SMO reflector designed for the respective emitter. I infer that this is not the case, because some say the beam shape of the XPL HI is nearly identical to that of the XPG2. But according to others, the XPG2 is still the more efficient thrower than the XPL HI. Two contradicting statements, hence my confusion and question.
    Did you ever get an answer to this? I have the same question (I think)...

    My specific question would be which of the XPL-HI or XPG2 (dedomed) would throw farther in a TX25Cvn (which should be the same as for the TX25C2vn). I think the answer is it should be close, but nobody knows yet?

  13. #73
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:

    Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin
    CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K
    NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K
    NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K
    NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K
    CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K

    Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.
    Last edited by carl; 08-04-2015 at 06:35 PM.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Thank-you Carl!

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:

    Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin
    CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K
    NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K
    NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K
    NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K
    CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K

    Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.

  15. #75
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    Based on the output numbers for the Noctigon M43 at the Outdoor Store:

    Led & Tint OTF Lumens Peak Beam Intensity Kelvin
    CW S4 2B 7480lm 33,600cd 5700K
    NW S2 1D Dedome 6400lm 70,000cd 5000K
    NW S3 3D 7060lm 32,000cd 4885K
    NW 219BT-V1 4450lm 20,000cd 5000K
    CW XP-L HI V3 8350lm 44,000cd 5700K

    Notice the XPG2 dedome is rated at 70,000cd and the XPL-HI is rated at 44,000cd so that tells us which throws more. The M43 uses optics instead of a reflector but this fact is incidental - the smaller die (XPG2) wins the throw contest. The XLP-HI wins the output contest at 8350 lumens but its more flood, not throw.
    Given the XPL is 8350 lumens and the XPG dedome is 6400 lumens, that tells me that the XPL-Hi is being driven harder, but not a whole lot harder than the XPG2 dedome. That is not a fair comparison then. The XPL-HI is a much bigger die. To achieve similar throw, it needs to be driven as hard as the XPG2 dedome w.r.t. to it's die size. At a similar or close drive current, the XPG2-dedomed is always going throw farther as you have a much higher current per die area and hence higher surface brightness. I think the XPG2 will always be a bit better as it's easier to make a small die (current spread fingers on the wafer, etc.).

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by SemiMan View Post
    Given the XPL is 8350 lumens and the XPG dedome is 6400 lumens, that tells me that the XPL-Hi is being driven harder...
    This same discussion on the Noctigon M43 thread on Budgetlightforum concluded that because the M43 driver is a constant current driver and the same driver is used on all the different versions of M43 with their different LEDs, all versions are driven equally hard or close to it. This means the increase in lumens of the XPL-HI over the XP-G2 is due primarily to increased efficiency, especially since dedoming the XP-G2 results in a significant 10-20% output loss and also it is an older LED design (the XP-G2 started showing up in flashlights in 2012 and the XPL is just starting to show up in flashlights now).

    Some forum members thought small differences in LED Vf would make a difference in amperage to the LED but this idea was negated by those who felt the driver would compensate and provide the same amperage to all versions of the M43.
    Last edited by carl; 08-15-2015 at 02:45 AM.
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  17. #77
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Would anyone like to guess about when the V4 of the XPL-HI might come out since the V3 just came out a month ago?
    Last edited by carl; 08-15-2015 at 02:37 AM.
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  18. #78
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    im having trouble finding any bare XP-L HI in the US. MTNelectronics showed them out of stock, but now doesnt show them at all. anyone know where i can order a couple?

  19. #79
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by sinister View Post
    @Paul Baldwin, that is a GREAT idea. I'm watching all these reflow videos on Youtube and it just seems like a hassle for mounting a single LED. It has it's purpose for multiple component PCBs, but there has got to be another simpler way. Would your method work if I heat up the star and pre-solder the contacts and then drop the LED onto the star?

    P.S. Oh yea that's an Ultrafire A10, I've had for a while as my EDC as well. Now it's the Ultrafire U20S (the black flashlight in the picture)
    A company called Chip Quik has an SMD rework kit that includes a special low melting point alloy which allows you to remove SMD parts relatively easily with a regular soldering iron.

  20. #80

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    i use a piece of aluminum on a hot plate or stove to reflow aluminum core boards. just lay the circuit board on the aluminum and wait for it to flow. add a tiny bit of solder paste with point of toothpick. works good and you can control temp.

  21. #81
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by tab665 View Post
    im having trouble finding any bare XP-L HI in the US. MTNelectronics showed them out of stock, but now doesnt show them at all. anyone know where i can order a couple?
    http://intl-outdoor.com/led-xpl-hi-c-107_148.html

    The older V2 is available but not the new V3.
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  22. #82

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    It drives me insane that there are several nice tints, two here (5750-6000 and 5700-6100K) but manufacturers always use the blue ones!
    GOOD TINT!

  23. #83

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Why do you use XML ? it is high lumens.

  24. #84
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Sorry in advance for the mild thread necromancy:

    Quote Originally Posted by carl View Post
    I need some clarification and help here:

    From Cree's site: “The XP-L High Intensity LED allows us to boost the efficacy and intensity of our XP-G2 LED based designs without changing optics or drivers.”

    Are they saying that for the same power/Watts input, both efficiency ("efficacy") and throw ("intensity") will be greater than XP-G2?

    Post #35 above suggests 10-15% higher output for the XPL-HI but Cree is saying the throw would be greater too - I guess due to the slightly greater output?

    Thank you for your help!
    I take their ststement to mean higher output for entire optical systems or luminaires that use the XP-G2 chip. Since the XP-L HI chip has higher surface brightness it may end up with more total throughput through the secondary optics. That statement implies that the distance between the mounting surface and the apparent location of the die image is the the same for both the XP-G2 and the XL-L HI, so that the parts could be substituted without needing to reposition any secondary optics.

    I can't confirm if that's actaully true.

    Quote Originally Posted by RoGuE_StreaK View Post
    A musing that seems relevant here; can you use a small aspheric close to the emitter in these cases rather than a large one further away? I'm not overly knowledgeable about the ins and outs of aspherics, but is the diameter and distance a factor of trying to focus all areas of a square emitting surface rather than a point source? If so, as the apparent emitter surface is smaller here, does that mean you can use closer and smaller?

    ie., Has anything been designed yet that can essentially be mounted very closely to the emitter to drastically reduce the required lens size?
    Yes. the main reason flat LEDs like this are advantageous is that they have high surface brightness (or radiance).

    LED domes improve overall efficiency and lumen by allowing rays that would otherwise totally internally reflect to escape, but the consequence is they magnify the apparent size of the die by 1.5X, meaning an apparent area of the die by 1.5^2, or 2.25. (it's actually even worse when you consider the image of teh die is distorted when viewed at large angle).

    The lack of a dome also means you can place optics such as aspheric lenses much closer. With a dome you are limited to optics that have a long enough working distance (distance from the back surface of teh lens to the apparent location of the LED die) to clear the thickness of the dome.

    It also means that components such as light pipes or homogenizing rods can be placed in flush contact with the LED. A domed LED cannot be easily used with devices like tapered light pipe rods without excessive losses. A combination of a domeless LED, a tapered light pipe, and an aspheric lens can basically be used to form an extremely uniform and high intensity light source suitable for microscope illumination. That's a lot harder to pull off with domed LEDs.

  25. #85

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by 2xTrinity View Post
    Sorry in advance for the mild thread necromancy:



    I take their ststement to mean higher output for entire optical systems or luminaires that use the XP-G2 chip. Since the XP-L HI chip has higher surface brightness it may end up with more total throughput through the secondary optics. That statement implies that the distance between the mounting surface and the apparent location of the die image is the the same for both the XP-G2 and the XL-L HI, so that the parts could be substituted without needing to reposition any secondary optics.

    I can't confirm if that's actaully true.



    Yes. the main reason flat LEDs like this are advantageous is that they have high surface brightness (or radiance).

    LED domes improve overall efficiency and lumen by allowing rays that would otherwise totally internally reflect to escape, but the consequence is they magnify the apparent size of the die by 1.5X, meaning an apparent area of the die by 1.5^2, or 2.25. (it's actually even worse when you consider the image of teh die is distorted when viewed at large angle).

    The lack of a dome also means you can place optics such as aspheric lenses much closer. With a dome you are limited to optics that have a long enough working distance (distance from the back surface of teh lens to the apparent location of the LED die) to clear the thickness of the dome.

    It also means that components such as light pipes or homogenizing rods can be placed in flush contact with the LED. A domed LED cannot be easily used with devices like tapered light pipe rods without excessive losses. A combination of a domeless LED, a tapered light pipe, and an aspheric lens can basically be used to form an extremely uniform and high intensity light source suitable for microscope illumination. That's a lot harder to pull off with domed LEDs.
    Does high CRI XP-L HI exist? I noticed some 80+CRI warm XP-L but not the HI version (?) some dedome can reach the XP-L HI output but the tint result is a real lottery... Any ideas? tks

  26. #86

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Will the XP-L HI take 3.3v at 3a? From what I could gather that would be over driving the LED some but I'm not sure how it'll take it since Cree doesn't list it beyond 2.95v at 3a, I know the XM-L2 can take being over driven somewhat. I've got a custom made light with 3 XM-L's driven at 3.3v 3a and one is gone dim and shifted colder than the rest, I was just going to drop in some XM-L2's but with the shape of the reflector I'm thinking a XP-L HI would throw better than an XM-L2. I have a Nitecore EC4GT with a narrow but deep reflector and a XP-L HI V3 and it's got lots of throw and a very tight beam, the custom light has narrow but deep reflectors too but they're much smaller over all however the relationship between width and depth appears roughly the same. I'd like to get more throw and less flood from the light.

  27. #87
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    I would like an expert to comment on reflector depth and width, in relation to hot spot. . I have bought quit a few reflectors in my home made lights. . I believe, the reflector width, plays largest part in Hotspot intensity-so wider for more intensity. . I think deeper is for a brighter coronal spill, outside the Hotspot (believe the terminology goes).

    My last t6 xml2 was 8k candela at 2 watts in a smooth 42mm, the xpl hi is 12k candela in a 35mm smooth, also at 2watts. The xpl hi is noticeably brighter, but has a weird purple color at Hotspot center that you can only see on white walls, which, for me is what I use them for. . The xpl hot spot is usually wide enough (it is possible to get too narrow since your visual "Hotspot" is 15 degree according to Wikipedia) and can be turned way down for insane runtime and still brighter task light than anything store bought. Though 35mm smooth for xpl hot spot balance is my current preferred reflector format.


    My xpl v6 and hi are 4200kelvinish, warm as I ever want. I am told that tint is far more than CRI by people who have tested, scientifically. . One study even found people prefer lower CRI in some circumstances. I have zero opinion, I just am interested in seeing color differentiation, so far only very low CRI or dim lights have failed - for ex. I hate myepistar 65cri led 50watt for color, but have no issue with my 400 to 1000 watt mh lights. I also think my xpl's have better overall color rendering than my 2013 to 2015 xpls or and t6 china's bike lights. . Though the last t6 xml2 home build has good warm, for my taste, tint. I don't know why, probably spectral spike, but I haven't yet hobbled together my own spectrometer nor have looked yet for a Playstore spectrometer app. CRI is compared with heated metal under 5000k and the sun over 5000.

    I would love to see a 600 lumen 4 watt xpl v6 or w2 based light bulb with 3 xpl emitters and efficient AC-DC and heatsink. . Though I would want a dimmer. . Not sure what premium I would be willing to pay.
    Last edited by degarb; 09-24-2016 at 12:39 PM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  28. #88
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Woo Hoo! http://www.cree.com/News-and-Events/...Power-XPL-LEDs

    The XP-l2 is here, meaning 200 lpw at 2 watts may be in reach. I am guessing at 1 watt, we will see the same lpw number as the xpl1. My take is this SC5 tech just helps pull the heat faster from the back of the led, which I am sure will be tested by members here up to 10 or 20 watts on useless short runtime lights, for a far droopier lpw rating. I think we all are tired of waiting for that 200 lpw led, when 303 lpw was reached in March 2014. Especially, after the table of heatsink requirement v. lpw was posted.

    The xp-l2 is not on http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html of of the date of this post. Naturally, I wonder when they will hit the online suppliers. I can't wait until Home Depot gets these in their Fall 2032 light lineup!

    *My use: I am happy with the low heat/bright light output/improved color rendition, of my xpl v6, driven at 2 watts, 373 lumens (not quite as mentally satifying as "400 lumens at 2 watts"), 700 ma, with right (using 31mm, but 35mm on next build) reflector and 2x18650 buck cc/good heatsink-10 hours minimal runtime. Using a traditional cpu finned heatsink (jameco discontinued) + reflector holding sink, on my next build, I may get 200 lpw at 2 watt (measuring 373 lumens, now, with my intl-outdoor v6 neutral 4500k). Probably, a tad north of 170lpw at 3 watts, if I jump to a 2x26650 format. I am only interested in 10 hour target runtime, minimum-that is-, with a dimmer (on buck constant current controller, at over 90% efficiency).
    Last edited by degarb; 09-30-2016 at 09:45 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  29. #89

    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Think they'll release a version 2 of the XP-L HI?

  30. #90
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    Default Re: Cree XP-L High Intensity LED

    Quote Originally Posted by Bitter View Post
    Think they'll release a version 2 of the XP-L HI?
    Since the xpl hi is an xpl, with no dome, I'd guess it goes without saying or press release. . I think my hi is now a v5 bin. . I am guessing binning might not change over just 7 percent which is within error range of one bin. With the r5 xgp2 binning stayed at r5 but knew it just could handle more heat with less droop in lumens. . Same with xml2 t6. . Assuming same here.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

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