Which Lithium chemistry is best? And why? ICR vs IMR vs INR, etc.

Eneloops

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Cobalt vs Manganese Oxide vs Manganese Nickel? From my limited research, it appears that IMR and INR are the safest, and don't really need protection circuits (as much), and have much higher "C Ratings" for current draw. Have these chemistries replaced the ICR batteries? If not, when should you use the ICR over the IMR or INR? Does one have more charging-cycles than another? Are there any benefits of ICR over IMR or INR for certain applications?

Is ICR just older technology, replaced by IMR, and then replaced with INR? Should I just always go for INR when in doubt? Any help appreciated, thanks!
 

Eneloops

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Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.

Thanks, you're the goto resource for all things battery related, so I pay attention when you post, but these older chemistries are the only ones I've purchased recently. I didn't realize there were even newer options (this industry is FAST!).

I thought I was just now catching up with my new LG HE2 and Samsung 25R cells, after stocking up on a bunch of Panasonic 18650B cells, which I think are unprotected ICR types. I just can't seem to get ahead in this game!
 

HKJ

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Thanks, you're the goto resource for all things battery related, so I pay attention when you post, but these older chemistries are the only ones I've purchased recently. I didn't realize there were even newer options (this industry is FAST!).

I thought I was just now catching up with my new LG HE2 and Samsung 25R cells, after stocking up on a bunch of Panasonic 18650B cells, which I think are unprotected ICR types. I just can't seem to get ahead in this game!

It is not the old one you are buying, but the new hybrid chemistries. You do not get 3000mAh or more with a ICR cell or 2500mAh with a INR/IMR chemistry.
 

ven

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I use all,for run times in "undemanding" uses(say sub 4a) then ICR 3400 pany cells,naked as Chris puts it:). Not too demanding then protected ICR for multi cell lights like the tm15 to name one. More high demanding lights then 25R or LG 2500 etc etc like the triple quad and tm06vn to name just 2.

INR and IMR i use in ecig mods due to higher amp ask,not that i push them to what they are rated,maybe 6a-8a tops depending on atty ohm.

Then the world of vinh,modded lights i again use IMR or INR in both single and multi cell lights. With cells like the 30q at 3000mah and 15a rating,also pany BDs 3200mah and 10a and soon 3500mah............well INR or IMR hybrid cells make a good choice imo. Come a long way from 1500/2000mah for run times in lights. No tight fitting in carriers,no squashing of springs with PCB's taking up 3-4 or so mm(example).

My latest cells have been pany BDs,Samsung 30q and 25R,LG 2500,Efest 2500 and 3100mah. Guess a trend going here :laughing: For the lack of 300-400mah,i pefer the more stable chemistry as i dont run cells down all the way .

I would say just best for a specific aplication,ICR still hold their own like pany B for run times and life cycles.................
 

HKJ

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I use all,for run times in "undemanding" uses(say sub 4a) then ICR 3400 pany cells

They are not ICR, Panasonic calles them Nickel Oxide based platform, that would make them INR, but the "platform" means they add a couple of other elements making them a hybrid.
 

ChrisGarrett

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They are not ICR, Panasonic calles them Nickel Oxide based platform, that would make them INR, but the "platform" means they add a couple of other elements making them a hybrid.

That's why Panasonic uses the prefix 'NCR' before their li-co offerings.

Nickel/cobalt/dioxide, I guess?
 

HKJ

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Then imr not safe any more?

They are probably safer now, at least from the big brands like Panasonic, LG, Samsung, etc.
Batteries usual has to pass a couple of test, like overcharge, short circuit, heat, dropping, before that cell type is sold. The battery need not to work after the test, but there must be no fire or explosion.

From the Samsung ICR18650-32A datasheet:
Drop: Onto oak from 1.5meter 6 times.
Heating: 120C for 60 minutes
Over charge: 12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours
Reverse charge: -12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours
 

magellan

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They are probably safer now, at least from the big brands like Panasonic, LG, Samsung, etc.
Batteries usual has to pass a couple of test, like overcharge, short circuit, heat, dropping, before that cell type is sold. The battery need not to work after the test, but there must be no fire or explosion.

From the Samsung ICR18650-32A datasheet:
Drop: Onto oak from 1.5meter 6 times.
Heating: 120C for 60 minutes
Over charge: 12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours
Reverse charge: -12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours

-12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours? Jeez, I don't feel so bad sometimes sticking the cells in backwards for a few seconds. I had no idea batteries could withstand that.

I mean, with that sort of reverse tolerance it would seem that driving batteries in series into the much feared reverse polarity condition doesn't cause a problem most of the time?
 
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HKJ

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-12V 3.2A for 2.5 hours? Jeez, I don't feel so bad sometimes sticking the cells in backwards for a few seconds. I had no idea batteries could withstand that.

Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are no sparks you will not get any fire or explosion.
 

magellan

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Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are no sparks you will not get any fire or explosion.

Yikes. So the battery is pretty well cooked after that and should be thrown away. Very interesting and good to know, thanks. I won't be putting those batteries back into service. :) (Not that I expect to have any).
 
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NettyNett911

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Be careful with saying withstand, the battery is toast after that and it will probably vent, but as long as there are no sparks you will not get any fire or explosion.


Sorry for the double post, computer is being glitchy. My question/confusion is about the blue Samsung batteries--specifically the 2500mAh 3.7v. I'm trying to buy some online after grabbing one in a vape shop and they told me that this battery is an IMR. The only ones I'm able to find ANYWHERE on the internet have an INR designation. I know you said a lot of these use hybrid chemistry now but my local vape guy said a lot of companies also try to re-wrap their own batteries like some of the more popular ones so I want to be sure before I move forward. Can you tell me why they all say INR? Also, if you know any good online stores/Amazon sellers that have the real Samsung 2500mah 3.7's?

Thanks in advance!
 

RetroTechie

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That's why Panasonic uses the prefix 'NCR' before their li-co offerings.

Nickel/cobalt/dioxide, I guess?
Guess again... I've got a "PRODUCT SAFETY DATA SHEET" here, dated Dec. 7, 2010. Lots of legalese, info on packaging, (shipping) label, protective gear etc, but more interesting (imho) are the materials used.

I suspect the NCR18650B is just slightly improved NCR18650A, either with same or very similar chemistry (which doesn't include cobalt!). For other cells, copy 'n pasted:

NCR18650A
Positive electrode; Lithium nickel oxide 20-35wt%
Enclosure; Plastic
= "INR" ?

NCR18650 and CGR18650E / CGR17360 (different sections in the document, but identical materials listed)
Positive electrode; Lithium cobalt oxide 20-35wt%
that would be "ICR"

CGR14500 / CGR18650CG / CGR18650CH /CGR18650DA / CGR18650K / CGR18650KA / CGR26650A / CGR26650B
Positive electrode; Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide 20-35wt%
= "NMC" ? One of those newer "hybrids", IIRC a popular choice for e-bikes

Same for all types mentioned here: (and of course construction, electrolyte additives, exact form of carbon used etc may all be different)

Negative electrode; Carbon 10-20wt%
Electrolyte; Organic electrolyte (mainly composed of alkyl carbonate) 10-20wt%
 
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recDNA

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Basically none of these chemistries are used any more, modern LiIon cells uses a mix between them.
So when I purchase AW imr 16430 550mAh just because of "safe" chemistry they are in fact no safer than batteries marked icr?
 
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