Li-Ion batteries 2 years vs 10 years?

Why all phone, tablet and laptop batteries certainly will have about 50% capacity after 2 years and many will be dead on year 3
Yet the batteries in Toyota Hybrid cars and Tesla new Powerwall are guaranteed for 10 years
What's the difference between those Li-Ion?

NickBose said:

Why all phone, tablet and laptop batteries certainly will have about 50% capacity after 2 years and many will be dead on year 3
Yet the batteries in Toyota Hybrid cars and Tesla new Powerwall are guaranteed for 10 years
What's the difference between those Li-Ion?

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The jury is still out on how long the cells in electric cars will actually last...manufacturers had to give a long warranty just to assuage people's fears about a having to buy a VERY expensive replacement battery pack.

One big difference is how the cells are managed. If you don't fully charge or discharge the cells, and if you keep them relatively cool, lithium-ion cells will last MUCH longer. Electric cars have hundreds or even thousands of dollars of electronics to monitor and optimize battery life. They don't charge to max voltage the cell supports, for example, to increase the cycle life.

If you look after an li-ion/pol battery you might get 5 to 7 max years out of it, It all depends on how it is treated, like charge rate, temperature, depth of discharge and not charging it to 100% , On my Android tablet, I dont charge above 80%, and dont discharge below 20%, I have alarms set to go off when these levels are reached, not easy with a bare li-ion/poly charger.

I have found some bluetooth headphone from 7 years ago, and my usb charge meter showed it taking quite a good charge for such an old battery, they have surprised me, but if you game on a battery and let it go dead, you might only get 3-12 months before it need replacing.

Number one rule, do not charge a hot li-ion/pol battery, wait till it cools down first, as heat is one of the battery`s biggest enemy's.

John.

I'm curious about this too. Nevermind the fact that flashlights are many times kept in your pocket, room temperature indoors, etc. but a car is left out in -10°F + a bitterly cold wind, then in a blacktop parking lot up to 125° on a hot sunny day. Seems like the worst combination possible.

I thought the batteries in cars are proven to last as the first Prius was made longer than 10 years ago and they did come with 10 years warranty on battery packs?

Prius batts are NiMh.

TinderBox (UK) said:

On my Android tablet, I dont charge above 80%, and dont discharge below 20%, I have alarms set to go off when these levels are reached, not easy with a bare li-ion/poly charger.

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With a modern smartphone/tablet the battery life shouldn't be an issue, generally. I could be wrong, but I thought that the batt management software on these devices is fairly sophisticated, where it manages charging and discharging within safe parameters to extend battery life. Meaning, when it shows charged to 100%, it's not to the max batt capacity and if the phone goes to 0% charge and dies, it's not truly fully depleted - it's just software managing safe levels of charge and discharge to avoid overly stressing the battery.

ahtoxa11 said:

With a modern smartphone/tablet the battery life shouldn't be an issue, generally. I could be wrong, but I thought that the batt management software on these devices is fairly sophisticated, where it manages charging and discharging within safe parameters to extend battery life. Meaning, when it shows charged to 100%, it's not to the max batt capacity and if the phone goes to 0% charge and dies, it's not truly fully depleted - it's just software managing safe levels of charge and discharge to avoid overly stressing the battery.

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That could be true. But I'm still brainwashed enough to also keep mine between 30% and 90% as much as possible. My wife plugs her phone in and cooks it at 100% for hours, then runs it down playing some goofy game all the time. Already replaced her battery after 8 months. Mine last years...but I have an iPhone and she has one of the $1 LG phones which could make a difference.

markr6 said:

That could be true. But I'm still brainwashed enough to also keep mine between 30% and 90% as much as possible. My wife plugs her phone in and cooks it at 100% for hours, then runs it down playing some goofy game all the time. Already replaced her battery after 8 months. Mine last years...but I have an iPhone and she has one of the $1 LG phones which could make a difference.

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Well, what you're doing certainly doesn't hurt, that's for sure. It's anecdotal evidence on both side. I've had my smartphone for over 2 years. I plug it in overnight and keep it on the charger well past it showing 100%. It gets depleted to 5% displayed charge very regularly - at least a few times a week. After two years of this abuse, I've not lost much capacity; lost some, but I don't know how much of it is due to regular 'wear and tear' of usage anyway.

ahtoxa11 said:

Well, what you're doing certainly doesn't hurt, that's for sure. It's anecdotal evidence on both side. I've had my smartphone for over 2 years. I plug it in overnight and keep it on the charger well past it showing 100%. It gets depleted to 5% displayed charge very regularly - at least a few times a week. After two years of this abuse, I've not lost much capacity; lost some, but I don't know how much of it is due to regular 'wear and tear' of usage anyway.

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That's pretty good then. So many people swap phones every 2 years when their plan allows for a discount anyway. And if it has a replaceable battery those are like $8 so who cares...use it and abuse it!

In many cases, laptop batteries sit at 100% charge all the time. In a place that gets heated by CPU, GPU, harddrive etc. About the worst conditions you could have for Li-ion longevity, so mostly they lose capacity quickly. If I understand correctly, it may be possible the firmware or OS supports a user-settable % of charge when on AC (like keep around 70% when you're at home, bump it to 100% when you know you'll be on the road the next day). But I have yet to encounter such a software setting...

OTOH the Li-ion in my previous phone served me for 10+ years. Phone had a long standby time, which helped to keep # of cycles low. And I made sure to wait until charge level was actually low, before recharging (as opposed to topping off every day). The smartphone I have now doesn't provide that luxury: if I leave home with charge level at say, 30%, I may be left with an empty battery later in the day.

So it all depends on the usage & the batteries' working conditions.

Pretty much. I recall there are stories of exploding Li-Ions in cellphones occasionally, but they are pretty darn safe overall - have to be - given they are normally placed next to your body. I'm sure that fact alone drives manufacturers to be rather conservative with their battery management software. People getting their junk set on fire would make bad publicity, after all.

RetroTechie said:

If I understand correctly, it may be possible the firmware or OS supports a user-settable % of charge when on AC (like keep around 70% when you're at home, bump it to 100% when you know you'll be on the road the next day). But I have yet to encounter such a software setting...

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I believe Sony has this on some/all laptops but I forget exactly what they call it.

markr6 said:

I believe Sony has this on some/all laptops but I forget exactly what they call it.

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Toshiba has this on their laptops (80% max charge), it's called eco mode. You can toggle it off, if you want a 100% charge for going away.

RetroTechie said:

If I understand correctly, it may be possible the firmware or OS supports a user-settable % of charge when on AC (like keep around 70% when you're at home, bump it to 100% when you know you'll be on the road the next day). But I have yet to encounter such a software setting... .

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Such laptop battery-saver software exists for almost all recent laptops from top-tier manufacturers. I recall also seeing various third-party software that includes such capabilities.

Definitely car makers DO care much more about electric car battery lifespan than consumer electronics. Since they are new and fighting to enter the market against established gasoline cars they are scrutinized much more than more conventional cars.

As far as I know the primary drivers for longevity:
1) Minimum 30% SOC
So car will show empty fuel when pack still has 30% SOC
2) Temp management
Certainly have cooling ducts, even heater elements for cold days (such as here in Canada are common)

So avoid deep discharge and temp extremes and you get far longer lifespan.
I also read here about max 90% SOC prolongs life a lot.

Now most consumer devices (phones, tablets, etc.) simply don't have much intelligence when it comes to charging. My friend used a "fast charger" and had his Google Nexus 4 batt died after only 2 years. Also notice when using demanding apps like games how tablets/phones get hot, but they keep going. Simply put, user experience is more important than batt life. Device must keep functioning no matter what.

The big difference is price, of course.

Even living here in Indiana where it was -20°F would worry me with an electric car. In Minnesota where it was -40°F this past winter...ouch! I don't think any insulating would be enough with a car sitting out in that for 12+ hours.

I was just reading an article about Panasonic and their latest CEO who really turned things around. It mentioned Tesla a few times and the HUGE Li-Ion plant being built in the desert somewhere...I think near Reno, NV. The two of them are really hoping the electric car thing takes off.

markr6 said:

Even living here in Indiana where it was -20°F would worry me with an electric car. In Minnesota where it was -40°F this past winter...ouch! I don't think any insulating would be enough with a car sitting out in that for 12+ hours.

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Tesla claims you can go 400km on a charge. But, yes, I wonder what that really is during a cold winter day. 200km? 100km?

I would probably be okay with a real 200km range. Anything less, and it's only good for driving around your neighbourhood. Like a fast golf cart.

WalkIntoTheLight said:

Tesla claims you can go 400km on a charge. But, yes, I wonder what that really is during a cold winter day. 200km? 100km?

I would probably be okay with a real 200km range. Anything less, and it's only good for driving around your neighbourhood. Like a fast golf cart.

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200km would be more than enough for me. I typically drive 25km round trip to work with a stop or two picking up groceries, shopping, etc. so call it 50km/day. It would be useless for any kind of a trip, but for that I could use my wife's car. It's just the price of these things that doesn't make them practical. Tesla's goal is to get something down to $35K (like the Chevy Volt) but that's still too much for me.

Ok, I just dug out my old Sony Camcorder an TR810E Hi8, I have two original Sony battery`s NP-F530 7.2v 1350mah, date code is 7A6EA, According to an Japanese website, this makes the battery 19 years old, they were made in May 1996.

So i did a voltage check and the it was all-over the place, most likely the battery protection had cut in, so i connected them to my AC6 Hobby charger and they would not charge at all, so i dug out a couple of rcr123a and taped them together to give 7.2 volts and connected them to the Sony battery off and on a few times and now the battery give a voltage reading.

And i am now charging one at 600ma approx 0.5c and when full, I will discharge at 270ma , should i use 200ma or 300ma? and we will see what capacity a 19 year old li-ion battery has left, if any. oo:

Can anybody say project.

Stay turned, if you see smoke coming from my house, send the fire-brigade around.

EDIT: First discharge test gave 857mah, new capacity is 1350mah so a loss of -36% , I will give another couple of charge/discharge cycles but i dont expect much of an increase, so the battery lost 36% in 19 years, also the battery has not been used for the last 12 years.

I discharged the battery at 300ma so slight higher than 0.2C

John.