How are your discount NiMh LSD cells holding up?

Kurt_Woloch · Jul 3, 2015

Today I've spotted a sale of Austria's discount chain Hofer (branch of Germany's Aldi) selling their Activ Energy LSD AA and AAA cells at € 3,99 for a 4-pack starting next Monday. As you may know if you read some of the threads I was posting in previously, I currently have some problems with the degradation of my older NiMh cells, so I took a closer look at this offer. However, the target devices for these cells would be devices who would only need a recharge 2-3 times a year at most, down to a charge lasting 2-3 years. The question is if these cells are cost-effective for this purpose. One could argue that rechargeables would only make sense if the device needs at least one charge a year. Another argument would be that Eneloops (white) would be holding up for much longer, and in fact for the newest generation of Eneloop I estimate that duration at up to 80 years at light use. In contrast to that, some of the cells I've got problems with are only a bit over 3 years old and have endured maybe 60-70 cycles, but have already degraded to about 70% of their original capacity (if they ever had it, I didn't check back then) and an internal resistance of 400-470 mOhms.

So... I'm looking at the AA size of those Activ Energy LSD cells. I suppose these will be comparable to other budget LSD cells... someone in another forum claimed they would be equivalent to Varta cells and probably to numerous other brands not manufacturing the cells themselves. I'm pretty sure they are made in China, not in Japan. I'd like to know how many years these cells should last if they only get cycled 1-2 times a year or even less. The target devices would be:

- Yamaha PSR-E443 Portable keyboard (basic draw 156 mA but may draw more if turned up loud or a power-hungry USB device gets attached). I can't really predict how much it will get used, a charge could last anywhere from 4 months to 2 years in average.
- Flashlight with tube (draws about 350 mA in operation and will be operated maybe half an hour at a time). A charge would probably last 4-6 months here.
- Portable cassette player for digitizing tapes into the PC. This draws about 120 mA, but only rarely gets used. Could be used up to an hour at a time, but a charge would probably last 2 to even 3 years
- Maybe a wall clock (a charge probably would last about 2 years there)
- Receiver part of a RC car (only gets used maybe once or twice a year for an hour, so I probably wouldn't leave the batteries in there unless there's no reason to put them somewhere else). I don't know how much this draws, but peak currents may go up to 1 amp.

There are the following possibilities:
1. Buy some of these batteries and use them for some of the devices (or all of them). I'm just worried that I'd have to replace them in a few years again
2. I'm currently able to get Duraloops at a 20% discount at the BILLA chain. I could as well buy some of those (but the discount only works up to July 11th) for an end price of € 13,59 for a 4-pack, and they have good capacity, but how long will they last? (Duracell guarantees 5 years minimum in some markets)
3. Buy some regular Eneloops... those will probably last for a long time, but they're not exactly cheap (cheapest local price I know is € 29,99 for a colorful 8-pack at the moment)
4. Buy some Alkalines (just found a new cheaper source where I can get an 8-pack for € 1,59) and use them for some of the devices
5. Continue to use the degraded cells. This gives some problems... the keyboard tends to show "low" even at the beginning of a charge due to the high internal resistance of the cells if I turn it up loud, the flashlight either has to be recharged every month due to high self-discharge or runs very dimly due to high internal resistance, depending on which degraded quad I use for it, and the stereo cassette player has to "steal" its batteries from the other devices when I need it.

I'm leaning towards buying #1, but maybe I make a mistake here. What do you think?

TinderBox (UK) · Jul 3, 2015

The lidl in the UK only sells the AA "TRONIC ENERGY ECO READY TO USE 2300" £2.99 for a pack of 4

John.

WalkIntoTheLight · Jul 3, 2015

Buy some Eneloops. They'll probably outlast you, so long-term cost is less than cheapie cells. I'm still using original Eneloops 9 years old, and they show no sign of degradation yet even at high loads. Make sure you get the Japanese ones.

TinderBox (UK) · Jul 3, 2015

I have loads of Eneloops Japan, but i like to try other brands and these TRONIC (German) Brand battery`s seem fine, and Eneloop use to be great if they are made in Japan, not if they were made in China.

John.

SilverFox · Jul 3, 2015

Hello Kurt,

I take a little different approach...

When you purchase new cells and keep them in the package they can last 3 - 5 years and still provide good service when they are put into use. The LSD cells may be a little different. I have some of the original Eneloop cells and they have been in the package since 2006. It will be interesting to see how they perform once I put them into service.

When you charge the cell you start its life cycle. I have found that NiMh cells work a lot better if regularly used.

If you have an application that you only use once a year, I think it is better to have a package of alkaline cells for that application. Don't put the cells in the device, just have them available. When you use the device, remove the alkaline cells and go to the store and purchase a new set of cells. This eliminates most of the leaking issues.

This would address your RC car receiver and your portable cassette player.

This leaves the clock, keyboard, and flashlight. My experience is that cells that are periodically cycled perform better and last longer than those that are just put in the device and charged up every couple of years. The clock will gradually use the cell, but I would suggest once a year to run a discharge/charge cycle to keep things flowing. The keyboard and flashlight should have the cells put through a discharge/charge cycle every 3 months to keep them prime, or every 6 months to keep them going.

The reason for the exercising is to keep the chemicals inside the cell mixed up and evenly distributed. LSD cells achieve low self discharge by forming a passivisation layer over the surface of the electrode. This is why when you first measure IR you get a high number. Once you burn that layer off the IR reduces to normal and the cell provides power. If you charge the cell up and let it sit for an extended period of time, that layer can grow a little thicker than normal and cause the voltage to drop more than normal due to the increased IR. Also, once you have a thick layer formed it is harder to evenly burn it off.

In everyday use this is not a consideration. You use the device and marvel that the cells are still somewhat charged after a week or so of not using it. You then go back to daily use and everything is fine.

Just some things to consider...

Tom

Power Me Up · Jul 3, 2015

I've bought some of the Aldi Activ Energy cells here mainly for testing and in my opinion, they're not very good...

Of the cells that I've tested, their capacities are well below their rating and there is a lot of cell to cell variation as well. The first pack I tried was bought a few years ago, but I bought another pack to test a few weeks ago - they've changed the appearance of the cells, but the new ones don't seem any better to me.

I've got a pair of the newer cells doing cycle testing right now.

As far as cheap LSD NiMH cells go, in my experience, they are significantly less reliable than Eneloops. Not counting the Eneloops that I've intentionally cycled to death, I've thrown out far more cheap LSD cells than Eneloops - even though I've got more Eneloops than all of the other cells combined. The Eneloops tend to get used more as well.

If the choice is between cheap LSD NiMH and alkalines, I definitely recommend the cheap NiMH. Alkalines are a false economy when you take into account the costs of replacing devices that are damaged by leaks!

Mr Floppy · Jul 3, 2015

I've had a few generations of the aldi lsd. The oldest ones are still in use except the IR is fast approaching the 2V mark on the c9000. The newer 2300 version, haven't really put them through their paces yet. That is, put them in my single AA lights that draw over 2A. It would be at least 7 years since I got the first 2000mAh ones.

Kurt_Woloch · Jul 4, 2015

Thank you all for your input so far. I've quoted SilverFox's posting because it leaves the most to be discussed...

SilverFox said:
When you purchase new cells and keep them in the package they can last 3 - 5 years and still provide good service when they are put into use. The LSD cells may be a little different. I have some of the original Eneloop cells and they have been in the package since 2006. It will be interesting to see how they perform once I put them into service.[/QUOTE}
I've read that someone opened 10 year old Eneloops and still got over 70% (which would actually put them on par with the claim of the new Eneloop cells that just came out this May). I don't know at what discharging rate though. According to Power Me Up's tests, however, there seems to be no or next to no penalty at least in subsequent cycles due to letting them sit for 8 years. These are some figures I'm basing my assumptions on.

When you charge the cell you start its life cycle. I have found that NiMh cells work a lot better if regularly used.

If you have an application that you only use once a year, I think it is better to have a package of alkaline cells for that application. Don't put the cells in the device, just have them available. When you use the device, remove the alkaline cells and go to the store and purchase a new set of cells. This eliminates most of the leaking issues.

This would address your RC car receiver and your portable cassette player.

Click to expand...

Hmm... I never operated the receiver of the RC car on Alkalines, I thought the high current draw of up to an amp would be too much for them. But if you suggest using fresh Alkalines for each run, it still might work because they only operate while they're still vibrant. Just what should I do with the used cells? Throw them out even if they're not fully discharged yet?

With the cassette player it's a bit different... this gets used more often than once a year, though uses typically come in bursts. For instance, this year, so far, it got used on January 8th, January 26th, February 5th, February 18th, February 24th, March 6th, March 25th, April 17th, April 24th, May 6th, May 11th, May 22th and May 29th, so about every two weeks in average. But it may only run for maybe 5-10 minutes at a time, but up to an hour (that figure was when I digitized two cassettes with radio plays for a colleague). This is mostly where the flashlight comes in at well because on those occasions I often need to locate the tape containing the recording I want to digitize, and since some tapes aren't catalogued, but only have their contents written on the shell, I might go through several shells written in pretty small handwriting before I find the correct tape (if I do at all).

For the keyboard and flashlight your advice will probably work perfectly since the flashlight would use up a charge in 6 months anyway, and for the keyboard it roughly conforms to the usage cycles where I get a "gig" and do several rehearsals before it, but in between gigs it might not be used for a few months. Actually, I could also plug in the keyboard and not use any batteries at all, it's just more of a hassle to do it for each rehearsal where a battery charge might last for several rehearsals, or even all rehearsals belonging to one gig, and sometimes I don't want to do it because I'd create problems for others this way, for instance I'm coming for singing Christmas songs to their place and then I'd have to find a place to plug it in and have a cord leading to the table we're all sitting around which someone might stumble over (this is a problem because my parents are 80 and 83 years old).

About that passivisation layer: I don't think that's much of an issue with the moderate current drains these appliances draw. I actually bought a quad of Activ Energy cells back in March or April 2014 (I think) and then used them for the last run of the RC car in September 2014 right out of the package because they were the only cells that were free and charged at that time, and it ran just fine on them. Keep in mind that that receiver is applying a light load while only receiving signals, and then bursts of heavier load when it moves the front wheels left and right. After that, they got borrowed by my father for his digital camera to take some Christmas pictures while I was testing the somewhat degraded batteries of his camera, and then on December 30th they went into a No-Touch soap dispenser which had been running on its supplied set of Alkalines for about a year and three months. They still work there on the same charge with light daily use, and I see this as a bit of a test how long they will hold up compared to Alkalines. However, that test isn't finished yet, I only can say that they achieve more than 40% of the Alkalines' runtime, and they don't seem at their end yet.

However, the Activ Energy cells were fresh off the package before their first use. Do you think such a passivisation layer would occur after they've already been used, but not when they've been sitting in the package for a long time?

As for the clock... Sanyo gave an estimated runtime of 2.5 years for an Eneloop there. I never really used rechargables there before actually... it's where all the old batteries go that are too weak for other devices before they get recycled.

Oh, and I still have a supply of 2 fresh Alkaline AA's which came with a wireless microphone I bought 4 months ago, which was outfitted with rechargeables instead.

@Power Me Up:

Do you have any readings how much capacity the Activ Energy cells actually have? These are the LSD ones, right?

As far as I know, you did the cycle testing on the IKEA LADDA cells as well. Are you saying that the Active Energy cells are considerably worse than the LADDA's? At how many cycles are they right now?

And about the discount LSD cells you threw out... is there any regularity to them or are they failing randomly? What was the reason they were thrown out, and what was their life in average?

There was some saying about the Tronics from Lidl. These are also on sale regularly around here. Do you think it would be wise to pass the opportunity with the Activ Energy cells and wait for the Tronics to come on sale again? Or aren't they any better?

CelticCross74 · Jul 4, 2015

my "discount" NiMH AA cells have been Imedions and Powerex 2700s. The Imedions just dont hold their charge well at all which is quite disappointing I had high hopes for them. The 2700mah Powerex have actually turned out to be excellent despite that I dont believe they are technically LSD cells but an older high drain design. With my Xtar chargers Im finally actually getting close to the 2700mah mark. When I just had the old i4 and d4 they would never charge to anywhere near the mark.

Nowdays when it comes to AA cells the "lowest" Ill go are Duracell Ion Cores and L91 Energizer Ultimate Lithiums. Love that the L91's drive full ahead at 1.5v right till they die. I reliably have gotten 2400-2512 mah out of the Ion Cores with Xtar VCP. I still have an old 1900mah set of white standard Eneloops that still charge all the way and are still able to hold their charge as the day I got them years ago.

When it comes to brands like LADDA and Ansman etc. the only way Id buy is to make sure they are made in Japan. If they are then they are some kind of re wrapped Eneloop which is of course just fine

Mr Floppy · Jul 4, 2015

CelticCross74 said:
When it comes to brands like LADDA and Ansman etc. the only way Id buy is to make sure they are made in Japan. If they are then they are some kind of re wrapped Eneloop which is of course just fine

Nope, the ikea ladda are made in China. They are not eneloops rebadged. They come from a line of lsd batteries that have 500 cycles and they sag more than eneloops under heavy draw but has a longer tail

CelticCross74 · Jul 4, 2015

avoid them. Any re badged Eneloop will be far better and last longer. Amazon sells their brand NiMH AA's that are re badge Eneloops for cheap. Idk where you are in the world but Duracell Ion Cores are everywhere here if they are not where you are theyd be worth ordering as long as they dont turn out to be more expensive outside the US. I eat the price for nothing but Eneloop Pros and L91 Lithiums now they are just worth it. The Pros I have had charged past rated capacity consistently and L91's just drive a full 1.5v till they go out. As for BEST discount try to find a retailer selling last generation white Eneloops. They are cheap and usually just as good to go right out of the package as they were say 5 years ago. Eneloop XX should get a great deal as well.

Kurt_Woloch · Jul 4, 2015

500 cycles? Well, I checked it... you're right! I think IKEA tends to rather understate the values of the batteries they offer compared to other brands since they actually made 450 cycles in Power Me Up's accelerated cycling tests where Eneloops only managed to give 30-40% of their rated cycles. While IKEA rates their LADDA at 2 Ah and 500 cycles, I'm pretty sure other re-badgers rate the same cells at 2.1 or 2.3 Ah and 1000 cycles. I've got some Tronic LSD AAA's still in the package, and it says 1000 cycles there... don't know if they are from the same line.

By the way, I made a mistake... the cells I have in the soap dispenser are Tronic, not Activ Energy. I do have an Activ Energy 9V NiMh (250 mAh, non-LSD), and I'm not impressed of it at all. It seems that already after the first charge and discharge (in either a bathroom scale or a digital multimeter), some of the cells inside were out of line to the point that the battery, which should actually be 8.4 V, will go down to a voltage of 7-8 V after charging in a matter of days without having been used.

Mr Floppy said:
Nope, the ikea ladda are made in China. They are not eneloops rebadged. They come from a line of lsd batteries that have 500 cycles and they sag more than eneloops under heavy draw but has a longer tail

SilverFox · Jul 4, 2015

Hello Kurt,

We are still learning about LSD cell chemistry. The point I was trying to make is that the cells seem to behave differently in the package versus in use. If you take some new LSD cells, run them through a few charge/discharge cycles and then put them back into the package and check them 5 years from now, they tend to preform differently (as in not as good) as cells that were simply left in the package and stored for 5 years.

The comment about changing alkaline cells out after 1 use was targeted toward minimizing leakage problems. Unused alkaline cells tend to leak less often than used cells (especially in temperature fluctuations). By not "storing" used cells your chance of having a leak are reduced. If leaking is not an issue for you, just leave them in the device and take your chances.

Unfortunately, my observations are based upon limited data. It is a little difficult to set up for 5 year comparison testing. I usually need my cells prior to that.

Tom

daan_deurloo · Jul 4, 2015

I have some really cheap NiMh batteries that should have 2000mAh, but that is totally fake. These cell just contain 800+mah and i know that by the feeling the weight for each cell.

I had one of the chinese cells opened once and the nickel plate ( How you wanna name it ) was smaller then the battery itself.
Took apart a Nickel Zinc battery also and that cell was just fine and the nickel plate was bigger then the plate of the AA cell.

( Look out if you take one apart. Mine started to heat up really quick )

I've should charge and discharge that fake "2000mAh" with my iMax B6 to check what that thing says. I doubt it will not be higher then the 800mAh.
I may should also get the "1000mAh" fake ones and see what i get for my money and how they last in my Ultrafire XML-T6 Cree. I'm using a 18650 in it atm.

WalkIntoTheLight · Jul 4, 2015

SilverFox said:
We are still learning about LSD cell chemistry. The point I was trying to make is that the cells seem to behave differently in the package versus in use. If you take some new LSD cells, run them through a few charge/discharge cycles and then put them back into the package and check them 5 years from now, they tend to preform differently (as in not as good) as cells that were simply left in the package and stored for 5 years.

Unfortunately, my observations are based upon limited data. It is a little difficult to set up for 5 year comparison testing. I usually need my cells prior to that.

Your statement is a little surprising to me, based on my own anecdotal evidence (which could very well be wrong). But I think without seeing some actual tests, I'm still inclined to think that however Eneloops are stored (used or unused), they last a very long time. The tests of 8-year old gen1 Eneloops vs. new gen4 Eneloops, seems to show that the 8-year old Eneloops perform as expected (half the cycles of the gen4's, due to the 1000 cycles vs. 2100 cycles claims).

Mr Floppy · Jul 4, 2015

Kurt_Woloch said:
500 cycles? Well, I checked it... you're right! I think IKEA tends to rather understate the values of the batteries they offer compared to other brands since they actually made 450 cycles in Power Me Up's accelerated cycling tests where Eneloops only managed to give 30-40% of their rated cycles. While IKEA rates their LADDA at 2 Ah and 500 cycles, I'm pretty sure other re-badgers rate the same cells at 2.1 or 2.3 Ah and 1000 cycles. I've got some Tronic LSD AAA's still in the package, and it says 1000 cycles there... don't know if they are from the same line.

In actual use, I barely notice no difference. The one thing I notice is the increase in IR. It's all about maintaining a low IR and little sag. I have a theory that there are a few plants churning out lsd batteries in China but all share a similar formula, as discharge curves show a consistent sag when compared with eneloops. The difference is IR.

Power Me Up · Jul 4, 2015

Kurt_Woloch said:
Do you have any readings how much capacity the Activ Energy cells actually have? These are the LSD ones, right?

Yes, I've only got LSD Activ Energy cells. On the latest set of 4, the capacities from the first full cycle were:

2113

1985

2187

2183

They were actually better results than the previous set of 4 (from February 2014) which gave the following capacities:

1992

1905

1956

1965

So my previous statement that the latest ones weren't better was actually incorrect - the new ones are better - but still not that great.

As far as I know, you did the cycle testing on the IKEA LADDA cells as well. Are you saying that the Active Energy cells are considerably worse than the LADDA's? At how many cycles are they right now?

The pair of Activ Energy cells that I'm testing at the moment have just hit 200 cycles - it wouldn't surprise me if they fail before they hit 250, but they might surpass that and get close to 300 - will have to wait and see.

And about the discount LSD cells you threw out... is there any regularity to them or are they failing randomly? What was the reason they were thrown out, and what was their life in average?

The worst LSD cells that I've had were Hybrios - of 8 AA cells, I might have 1 still in use. Some developed high self discharge, others developed high internal resistance and reduced capacity.

I bought quite a few EnergyOn cells at a good price at the time - out of 38 cells however, 3 weren't much good to start with. Of the rest, I've disposed of a couple that had reduced capacity and increased self discharge. Of the rest, I'd say most if not all have got elevated internal resistance.

Of 12 Imedion AA cells, I've still got all of them, but their self discharge rates are all over the place. For a group of 6 of them, 3 of them lost more than 50% of their capacity remaining after a 6 month period with another couple having maybe 60% remaining over the same period, the best out of the 6 had about 75% remaining. I've just checked the voltages on a set of 4 not included in the 6 month test - they were last charged on the 4th of November 2014: 2 have probably about 60% remaining at a guess - one has next to nothing left and the other is definitely flat.

I've got around 26 Turnigy 2400 mAh cells and they're not doing too badly - the oldest of these was purchasing in August 2012 - of the cells that I've been using a fair bit, most were close to their original capacity when I tested them in May. IR is getting up to around 100 milliohms or thereabouts though. I should do a self discharge test on some of these cells and see how they're going in that regard.

There was some saying about the Tronics from Lidl. These are also on sale regularly around here. Do you think it would be wise to pass the opportunity with the Activ Energy cells and wait for the Tronics to come on sale again? Or aren't they any better?

I don't have any experience with the Tronics, so that I can't comment on them - sorry!

TinderBox (UK) · Jul 4, 2015

One thing about the Tronic Battery`s is that the manufacture date is written on the sleeve in English not in some code.

My totally red AA 2100mah dated 2010/06

My silver/black AA 2300mah dated 2013/07

http://s42.photobucket.com/user/policeman999/media/IMAG0005_zps583420ed.jpg

CuriousOne · Jul 4, 2015

I'm using both Rayovac and JCB LSD AAs for more than 2 years. No complaints.
They are used in camera strobe flash. Provide same life time as Sony CycleEnergy LSD cells, but a bit slower 6s vs 5s full recycle time. Never had eneloops, so not able to compare.

MidnightDistortions · Jul 4, 2015

The only cells i have really invested in are Duracell, Energizer and Eneloops. All other types of cells usually i'll buy if they are on clearance, included with devices or were given/found. In my experience if they are not from a major brand such as Energizer, Duracell or Eneloop i won't get them. I have a Goal Zero battery that went under 100% of max capacity so i just threw them in a battery container and let them sit for a little bit and then refresh them later on to compare capacity. They do appear to be LSD but do not hold up as good as Eneloops and it's possible that once they were used their capacity will gradually settle to a point behaving like regular NiMH cells. But to avoid the headaches i am going to primarily use Eneloops or Duracells.

I do like to try out other cells but i would prefer to invest in cells that are going to perform well and so far no other brand has met the level of Eneloops in which are worth every penny investing in those cells. No matter if you recharge them often or wait until they no longer power the device they still produce the same level of capacity and high performance. And while some folks might not have enough money or would rather go for cheap brands which i think is ok, i mean i could buy a set of 8 Eneloops and then buy some cheap cells to replace all my old cells, but i just know i'm going to get better performance out of the Eneloops with minimal maintenance to keep the cells in check. While i don't have regular AAA Eneloops or a good set of AA Eneloop Pros yet, i'm waiting on getting those due to trying to get a 5 year gap so all my Eneloops would not all degrade near the same time due to having them all bought at the same time. The cost is a bit overwhelming but i like to spread out the age a bit so since most of my AAA cells are crap cells (mostly lost capacity) and a few showing signs of high IR they still are doing what they need to do and i do have a set of AAA Radioshack cells which seem to be LSD as well which hardly gets used but i sometimes will toss them in my T7 so they at least get some usage. My goal is to eventually replace all my NiMH and alkaline cells with Eneloops but i'm not going to have 32 or 48 AA Eneloops all dated within the same year so for now my current set of Eneloops are shared among different devices some haven't been used as of yet though some have already been cycled (oops) which isn't a huge deal because they will most likely be in full operation within a few years. I don't know when i plan on getting a pack of AAA Eneloops, most likely when my current ones won't provide enough power or if i get any additional AAA devices and playing musical batteries would start to be too much. Also have an 8 pack of AAA Eneloop Pros so most likely if i have to use those quite often then i know it's time to get some more AAA cells

.

How are your discount NiMh LSD cells holding up?

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