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Thread: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

  1. #31

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Are you sure that you are not dealing with counterfeit calls?

  2. #32
    Flashaholic* MidnightDistortions's Avatar
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Power Me Up View Post
    I've just had a look through some historical charging data for some of my Eneloops and although I can see variations in the charging end voltage, there doesn't appear to be a direct correlation between depth of discharge and final voltage. In quite a few cases, when cells discharged more, the end voltage was lower, but I also found cases where it was higher.

    I suspect that other factors such as the ambient temperature come into play.

    In the end, I would say that depth of discharge may or may not have an effect on the end voltage - if it does, it doesn't appear to be enough that it overcomes all of the other factors to the point where it consistently causes higher end voltages... With enough testing, it might be possible to show that there is a statistical difference, but in the mean time, I wouldn't be too concerned by it...
    Yeah it looks like you might be right about the voltage thing...

    This is the results from the testing i did.

    1st Charged at 1000mA
    1.44 v (IR test - 1.51v)
    Discharged at 1000mA
    2266 / 2272 / 2295 / 2287


    2nd Charged at 1000mA
    1.45-1.46 v(IR test - 1.42v)
    (2307 / 2400 / 2472 / 2423)


    Discharged at 1000mA
    2333 / 2338 / 2365 / 2354


    3rd Charge at 500mA
    1.46 (IR test - 1.45v)
    2258 / 2348 / 2420 / 2380


    Discharged at 1000mA
    2376 / 2384 / 2401 / 2385

    I'm not sure if that makes much of a difference from charging at 500mA or at 1000mA, however i did let the cells rest for an hour or two. I averaged out the IR test, they were slightly higher the 3rd time but lower than the initial charge which only added about 300mAh into the cells so they were fairly charged. I bought these cells (Duracell Ion Core, 2400mAh) a year ago and so far they are holding up well. I did also want to mention the ambient temp was about 74F with fans going and the cells never got above 105F.

    I think there is some sort of issue if the Eneloop Pros start dying after a couple of years. Heat might be a factor, even though the C9000 does dissipate heat well.
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    Chargers: Maha C9000, La Crosse BC1000, Panasonic BQ-CC17, Eneloop user.

  3. #33

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Hi @KeepingItLight,

    Do you happen to have the same test for the Ikea LADDA 2450?

    https://www.ikea.com/ca/en/catalog/products/70303876/

    TIA,

    kusitb

  4. #34
    Flashaholic marcosg's Avatar
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by gooseman View Post
    In March 2014 I purchased a pack of 8 new eneloop XXs (4HR‐3UWX) from "large online retailer" (before Panasonic rebranding).

    I have been using my Maha MH-C9000 to charge them at 1000ma for the past 16 months. I use all 8 batteries and then recharge them, so they are getting even wear.

    Within the last week, my C9000 reported 'High' on 4 batteries. I estimate they have been charged only 60-70 times (they should handle 500 charges). The ones that are still "OK" are looking pretty tired in my flashlight fresh off the charger.

    I tried C9000's "Refresh Analyze" - and as last resort "Break in", both to no avail (unit says "High" for failed batteries, ~1850-1900mAH for surviving ones).

    Is it possible I charged them too quickly @1000mA? Thats less than 0.5C so I thought it would be OK. But the Panasonic BQ-CC17 charges at 300mA.

    Thanks
    My Eneloops XX are also doing the same thing. Purchased them about 2 years ago (2 packs of 8) and they probably have about 100 to 120 cycles.
    They are the original ones from Japan and I also use the C9000 at the same rate as you.
    Only the Lacrosse BC1000 and the Opus BT-2000 will charger them.
    The Maha C9000 and the Panasonic chargers won't charge them. I have no problems with my regular Eneloops that I purchased years before.

  5. #35
    *Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by marcosg View Post
    My Eneloops XX are also doing the same thing. Purchased them about 2 years ago (2 packs of 8) and they probably have about 100 to 120 cycles.
    They are the original ones from Japan and I also use the C9000 at the same rate as you.
    Only the Lacrosse BC1000 and the Opus BT-2000 will charger them.
    The Maha C9000 and the Panasonic chargers won't charge them. I have no problems with my regular Eneloops that I purchased years before.
    Not the Eneloop Pros, but the Duracell Ion Core 2450s. Bought 4 back in late '13 and did the break-in on my C9000s. Then I bought two more quads a year or so later. These don't have close to 50 cycles on any quad and have been used in moderation.

    The other day, I went break-in the first quad (1-4) and 3 finished, but one didn't. I tried a few things and it wouldn't even take a discharge at 300mA. I put it in the recycle bag, just chalking it up to finally a 'dead' cell. This one wouldn't even read high, it just wouldn't discharge.

    So I'm leaving my GF's place today, where I've kept batteries 5-8 in a SWM D40A and took them home to break-in (I'm going through my AAs before hurricane season scales up and the first one in the C9000s, shuts the BI process down. I tried a few times and same deal. Doesn't even start the process on BI, or even 'charge' and doesn't discharge but for a second before DONE.

    I tried another and figured that this quad is like the other one--just bad batteries. I have them charging up on my LaCrosse BC-700 and when they're done (and they're charging fine at 500mA), I'll do a discharge on them and then on my BT-3400 v. 2.2 and see what I see, but it's not looking good. They're at least 3 years old, but not a lot of cycles.

    Chris
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  6. #36

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    I don't know with your experiences guys but in my experience with LSD AA cells, only the Eneloop 2000mah has survived and are surviving until now and retaining almost its original capacities...... while my higher capacity, whether the Eneloop Pros or my Powerex Imedion 2450s are all retired, way below the regular Eneloop in cycles.

  7. #37

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    Not the Eneloop Pros, but the Duracell Ion Core 2450s ... C9000s ... LaCrosse BC-700 ... BT-3400 v. 2.2 ...
    Charge all of them on BC-700, then read their internal resistance using BT-3400. I bet the ones causing problems will read above 2000 mOhms.

    Recycle the cells that read above 1000 mOhm. A good replacement is BPI 2400, they will eventually fail as well, but are cheaper to get.

    Cheers,
    AA Cycler
    Last edited by AA Cycler; 06-03-2018 at 11:47 PM.
    Cycle count tests of AA batteries - http://aacycler.com

  8. #38
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    I have almost 400 AA and AAA Eneloops, some dating back to 2006. They're all regulars, and the only ones that are showing signs of significant wear are ones that I overheated in a light that gets way too hot. I think this thread is a good reminder to me: stick to the regular Eneloops, not the Pros.

    That said, I have many in their original packages that I haven't touched. I think the oldest are around 4 or 5 years. I should get some of these out and test them to make sure they are still good. Perhaps Eneloops require occasional use to stay healthy? I haven't heard that is necessary, but I suppose it's possible.

    Many of my Eneloops in current usage only get charged every year or two (they're in low drain things like remotes and clocks). They're still fine, and that doesn't seem too much different than letting them sit in a drawer unused.

  9. #39
    *Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by AA Cycler View Post
    Charge all of them on BC-700, then read their internal resistance using BT-3400. I bet the ones causing problems will read above 2000 mOhms.

    Recycle the cells that read above 1000 mOhm. A good replacement is BPI 2400, they will eventually fail as well, but are cheaper to get.

    Cheers,
    AA Cycler
    Normally, I'll see the IRs creep up in normal charging, so I'm aware of where things are, even if it's just a faint memory. These actually surprised me, as the first one didn't trigger any high IR alert and didn't shut down the charger. Then this quad (#2) was rejected outright. I did get them to slow charge on the BC-700, then I did a discharge on the Opus BT-3400 and got ~2200mAh out of the four, but I wasn't able to get them to discharge at the 700mA rate on the Opus, rather they hung around the 475mA-525mA level, which is fine.

    They're in my RF wireless keyboard right now and I'll just leave them there.

    I've used NiMH enough over 2+ decades to know things go south on us, but low I.R.s aren't always the sole indicator.

    For me, the moral of the story is: if you're going to use hi-cap HSD-ish batteries, use them and abuse them quickly and then don't jump off of the roof when you have to replace them after a couple/few years. Also, cycles don't seem to be the de facto measure for a battery's health.

    Chris
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  10. #40
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Just as for Li-ion, it may be possible to extend life (= cumulative Ah) of high-capacity Eneloops by doing shallower (dis)charges. Indeed, some of AACycler's results (e.g. here and here) seem to imply that shallower cycles can greatly reduce the growth of IR so prolong life. But these tests were for Varta 2100's not Eneloops. It would be interesting to see what gains might be had doing similar for high-capacity Eneloops, i.e. not fully charging them (for that AACyler used 1.48V voltage termination vs 0dv or -dv) and/or using higher discharge termination voltage (e.g. 1.0V vs. 0.9V). I wonder how they would compare to the lower capacity eneloops if used at the same lower capacity, or half-way between the two, e.g. 2200mAh.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-04-2018 at 11:53 AM.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    With regular Eneloops, I wouldn't worry about trying to maximize cycles. Even if you only get 25% the rated 2100 cycles, that's still way more than most people will ever do.

    For the Pros, it sounds like age is killing them more than the number of cycles.

  12. #42
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    For the Pros, it sounds like age is killing them more than the number of cycles.
    Not necessarily, since they might have also been killed by a much smaller number of very deep cycles (or other usage that highly accelerates degradation).

  13. #43
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    With regular Eneloops, I wouldn't worry about trying to maximize cycles. Even if you only get 25% the rated 2100 cycles, that's still way more than most people will ever do
    2100 cycles appears to be greatly exaggerated marketing hype, since AACycler's tests show between 300-400 cycles to 80% capacity (or 100mΩ) for 2 samples, and 620 for another - see below. So you should worry about even for regular Eneloops if you are doing anything that might accelerate degradation.





    The Pros degrade 3-4 times more quickly.

    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-04-2018 at 04:03 PM.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    2100 cycles appears to be greatly exaggerated marketing hype, since AACycler's tests show between 300-400 cycles to 80% capacity (or 100mΩ) for 2 samples, and 620 for another - see below. So you should worry about even for regular Eneloops if you are doing anything that might accelerate degradation.
    Were those Japanese or Chinese Eneloops?

  15. #45
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    Were those Japanese or Chinese Eneloops?
    The web pages don't say. There "China" or "Chinese" is only mentioned when comparing the Eneloop lite Japan vs. Chinese versions (the Chinese had 12% more capacity but had 38% of the cycle life of the Japanese). So one would think he'd have explicitly mentioned if the others were Chinese. We'll have to wait for AACycler to confirm (he's in this thread).

  16. #46

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    The web pages don't say. There "China" or "Chinese" is only mentioned when comparing the Eneloop lite Japan vs. Chinese versions (the Chinese had 12% more capacity but had 38% of the cycle life of the Japanese). So one would think he'd have explicitly mentioned if the others were Chinese. We'll have to wait for AACycler to confirm (he's in this thread).
    Hi, couple of notes

    * the eneloops and the eneloop pros I tested were made in Japan for EU market. I don't think you can buy Chinese eneloops in Europe
    * 420 vs 630 cycles on standard eneloops - I got 420 cycles with -dV termination and 630 cycles with 0dV termination. Going forward I will use only -dV, because this is how people charge their batteries. I will gradually phase out the 0dV results and replace them with -dV results as I re-test the cells. Eventually all my results will be -dV results, just to keep consistency and to avoid confusion...
    * 2100 IEC cycles vs 420 AACycler cycles - you can not really compare these two things. I do full cycles (from 100% SoC to 0% SoC) and the IEC standard does partial cycles. My tests show the worst case scenario, the IEC standard shows the best case scenario. In real life you will be somewhere in between

    Cheers,
    AA Cycler
    Cycle count tests of AA batteries - http://aacycler.com

  17. #47
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by AA Cycler View Post
    * the eneloops and the eneloop pros I tested were made in Japan for EU market. I don't think you can buy Chinese eneloops in Europe
    Thanks for clarifying that. It would be helpful to add that statement to your web pages.

    Quote Originally Posted by AA Cycler View Post
    * 420 vs 630 cycles on standard eneloops - I got 420 cycles with -dV termination and 630 cycles with 0dV termination. Going forward I will use only -dV, because this is how people charge their batteries. I will gradually phase out the 0dV results and replace them with -dV results as I re-test the cells. Eventually all my results will be -dV results, just to keep consistency and to avoid confusion...
    Ah, so that's what the footnote means (it is not clear since the footnote's '*' doesn't reference anything above). Interesting results.

    Quote Originally Posted by AA Cycler View Post
    * 2100 IEC cycles vs 420 AACycler cycles - you can not really compare these two things. I do full cycles (from 100% SoC to 0% SoC) and the IEC standard does partial cycles. My tests show the worst case scenario, the IEC standard shows the best case scenario. In real life you will be somewhere in between
    Yes, Panasonic claims "up to 2100 cycles" by "Panasonic internal testing IEC61951-2 (7.5.1.3)", e.g. see p. 25 of the 2017-2018 eneloop catalogue. The referenced IEC endurance test is excerpted on this CPF page. The cycling is done with C/4 charges for 3.17h and C/4 discharges for 2.33h to 1.0V except a couple slow charges (C/10 for 16h) are done to test capacity at every 50th cycle, terminating if a C/5 discharge lasts less than 3hrs, i.e. yields less than 60% of nominal capacity (confirmed by a 2nd such discharge), vs. your stopping at 80% nominal capacity.

    So the IEC test will yield much more optimistic results than your cycling tests since IEC uses shallower cycles (60% depth, terminated at 1.0V vs. your 100% terminated at 0.9V) and lower rates (475mAh vs. your 1.0A charge, 0.5A discharge to 0.9V, or was it the old MC3000 setup at 1.5A? Again it would be helpful to say on the web page). Further IEC gains cycles by allowing the cells to degrade further before declaring them "end of life" when the current capacity is 60% (vs. your 80%) of nominal capacity.

    In any case, your results will probably better reflect real world cycle life since that does not typically involve shallower cycles such as those used in the IEC testing. This is easier to see with the Pros since they have 4x shorter cycle life (by both IEC & your test) - low enough to be noticeable even to casual users.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-09-2018 at 08:31 AM.

  18. #48

    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Sorry for coming a bit late to the party here, but here's some comments from me as well... as written above, the IEC standard always charges the batteries with a fixed amount of charge, which is quite a bit more than what was previously discharged. The C/4 discharges and charges charge the battery with 79% of capacity after taking away 58%, so there's an overcharge of 21% on each cycle. The slow charge which is done prior to the capacity test is C/10 for 16 hours, so it's 160% of capacity, an overcharge of 60%! The thing is, a NiMh battery doesn't need that much of an overcharge in order to be filled up. You can see it on this page by AACycler:

    http://aacycler.com/post/nimh-charge...gy-efficiency/

    As you can see there, up to a point of about 85%, the batteries take up every drop of energy they get (the inefficience actually coming from the voltage difference induced by internal resistance). Only after that the charging energy is being partially converted to heat, but by 115% of capacity, there is not much to be gained by further charging. So a 160% charge goes way beyond that! Compared to that, as also stated on this page, -dV charges the cells with about 106% of what's taken from them, and 0dV charges them with about 104% of the resulting capacity. OK, so the charge currents in these tests were much higher than what the IEC calls for, but I still think the IEC tests are actually harder on the batteries concerning length of charge than AACycler's tests. I think it's mostly the lower end (the end of discharge) where the IEC tests gains its cycles compared with AACycler's tests... but it also could be the speed of charge. But as shown on this page:

    http://aacycler.com/post/high-current-vs-low-current/

    cutting down the charge rate doesn't result in that many more cycles either.

    Just a little bit more to consider...

  19. #49
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Woloch View Post
    [...] I think it's mostly the lower end (the end of discharge) where the IEC tests gains its cycles compared with AACycler's tests... but it also could be the speed of charge.
    Yes, that's what I surmised above ("So the IEC test will yield much more optimistic results than your cycling tests since IEC uses shallower cycles ... and lower rates"). Also note that AACyler's tests stop when the cell degrades to 80% capacity but IEC goes further (to 60%), so that too exaggerates cycle life.

    It would be interesting to know if - like Li-ion - life increases if the (shallower) cycles are centered around 50% SOC.

    In any case it seems that real-word cycles may be much less than Panasonic's claim of 2100 cycles by IEC test (except in the rare? case that usage is close to IEC tests, i.e. shallow 60% cycles and use them till their capacity degrades to 60% vs. 80% of nominal capacity, etc, as above).
    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-09-2018 at 08:38 AM.

  20. #50
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Kurt_Woloch View Post
    [.. but it also could be the speed of charge. But as shown on this page cutting down the charge rate doesn't result in that many more cycles either.
    Keep in mind that those tests were done on the ("worst cycle count") Varta 2100's. Whether or not eneloops behave similarly we can't say for sure till they are tested.

  21. #51
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    In any case it seems that real-word cycles may be much less than Panasonic's claim of 2100 cycles by IEC test
    In the vast majority of use, cells will see nowhere near 2100 cycles, probably nowhere near even 500. Even if the average lifespan of a (regular) Eneloop is 10 years, 500 cycles would mean charging it every single week. 2100 cycles would mean almost every day!

    I only have one pair of Eneloop that I might cycle that much. I have a light for general illumination I use every night. In the winter, I recharge the 2xAA cells every day. In summer, maybe every second day. Frankly, most people would see me as insane, so this is extreme use.

    I haven't done a capacity test on them, but so far, I haven't noticed any degradation. They probably have about 500 cycles on them. Granted, they're not full cycles. I top them up to 100%, but they're usually only discharged to about 1.30v or a bit less. The cells are 2nd gen Eneloops from 2012, but have only received high usage in the last year or two.

    Anyway, I think, (except for nuts like me) that 2100 cycles is moot. 500 is still plenty. And for some of my cells (in remotes), they will probably only see a dozen cycles in their life. It's the low self discharge and shelf life that matters most.

  22. #52
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    In the vast majority of use, cells will see nowhere near 2100 cycles, probably nowhere near even 500. Even if the average lifespan of a (regular) Eneloop is 10 years, 500 cycles would mean charging it every single week. 2100 cycles would mean almost every day!
    Daily (partial) charges are the norm in some contexts, e.g. in solar-powered devices such as outdoor lights (e.g. Walmart sells them with Westinghouse 18650s).

  23. #53
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    Default Re: All my eneloop XX 2500 mAh batteries dropping like flies

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Daily (partial) charges are the norm in some contexts, e.g. in solar-powered devices such as outdoor lights (e.g. Walmart sells them with Westinghouse 18650s).
    Ah, yes, I forgot about those uses. I do have solar garden lights, but don't use Eneloops in them. I'm concerned that the constant trickle-charging would prematurely kill the batteries. Maybe the Eneloop Lite is better suited for that purpose?

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