The ULTIMATE Tactical Flashlight interface. Help show interest

bluemax_1 · Aug 28, 2015

Hey fellow CPF'ers,

I'm trying to convince a manufacturer to make a few design implementations to produce what I think could be THE most versatile UI for a Tactical flashlight.

The thread is located here:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...ate-tactical-flashlight&p=4723814#post4723814

The more interest shown, the better the chances of the company moving faster to produce the flashlight.

Of course, suggestions for optimizing the light are also welcome.

The basis of the design stems from the convenience of one-handed operation with a flashlight that has easily used controls one one end.

Designs where the on/off button is on the tailcap but the mode change operation is either another button or rotating ring BUT located at the head, are in no way optimal as they cannot be operated easily one-handed (this also includes head twist for mode change designs). You either need to use 2 hands, or change hand positions between operating the on/off button and changing modes.

To that effect, I proposed improvements to an interface I've used in a flashlight that I think provides maximum versatility and ease of use.

The basic UI is a flashlight with a tailswitch and rear mounted rotary selector knob with 3 user-programmable positions, but with some key differences from anything else I've seen.

The tailswitch should be a forward clicky so it provides the ability to have momentary AND constant-on functionality in each mode.

I've outlined the details in the thread above and with enough interest, I think we could get the company to realize that if they produce it, there's nothing else with this kind of versatility/functionality available. The more folks posting in that thread to show their interest, the better the chances of the manufacturer producing it sooner.

Max

Me+Light=Addiction · Aug 28, 2015

Most versatile UI for a tactical light? The HDS Tactical.
It's pretty much the UI you are describing. Tail switch with rotary knob + excellent durability.

kj2 · Aug 28, 2015

Me+Light=Addiction said:
Most versatile UI for a tactical light? The HDS Tactical.
It's pretty much the UI you are describing. Tail switch with rotary knob + excellent durability.

True

GearHunter · Aug 28, 2015

+2.... That wheels already been invented.

Poppy · Aug 28, 2015

Hi Max,
I don't know if they are still in production, but I have a Niteye MCS20
magnetic tail switch, rotate it to the left... strobe.
rotate to the right: first click, ramp output, UP, and Low
second click, High output.

bluemax_1 · Aug 29, 2015

Me+Light=Addiction said:
Most versatile UI for a tactical light? The HDS Tactical.
It's pretty much the UI you are describing. Tail switch with rotary knob + excellent durability.

I haven't had a chance to play with the HDS, but if you were say, in the Momentary Maximum or Strobe mode, what steps exactly, are required to switch to constant Maximum?

The other issue I have with the HDS is the maximum lumens and candela. For disrupting dark adapted vision over a wide variety of ambient lighting, I've found that lights that can hit the 20,000 candela mark are far more versatile and effective under various lighting conditions.

Lights in the 10,000 cd or less range are not as effective when there is more ambient light.

Max

bluemax_1 · Aug 29, 2015

Poppy said:
Hi Max,
I don't know if they are still in production, but I have a Niteye MCS20
magnetic tail switch, rotate it to the left... strobe.
rotate to the right: first click, ramp output, UP, and Low
second click, High output.

Thanks for the recommendation. That's one I hadn't encountered. It looks like it's still available, but the maximum candela of 4600 means it's not optimal.

Max

RWT1405 · Aug 29, 2015

Sounds interesting and good luck towards it. BUT, if you are talking about the most versatile UI for a tactical light, that is not it (at least not for me).

The most tactical UI is the one that SF has on their L1, L2 lights. Simple, and effective. A light push low, a hard mash high. Walking around or interviewing someone, twist on to low, and if something happens, mash hard for high.

That, right there, is the MOST effective tactical UI that is out there, bar none.

Me+Light=Addiction · Aug 29, 2015

bluemax_1 said:
I haven't had a chance to play with the HDS, but if you were say, in the Momentary Maximum or Strobe mode, what steps exactly, are required to switch to constant Maximum?

The other issue I have with the HDS is the maximum lumens and candela. For disrupting dark adapted vision over a wide variety of ambient lighting, I've found that lights that can hit the 20,000 candela mark are far more versatile and effective under various lighting conditions.

Lights in the 10,000 cd or less range are not as effective when there is more ambient light.

Max

Of course the brighter lights are going to be more blinding but I find 325 lumens to be sufficiently blinding in most situations. With ambient lighting and a bit of distance it's not gonna do much, but that's the limitation you have with a 1xCR123 battery. A great tactical interface for the 1x18650 lights is the one from the PD35TAC, in tactical mode of course.

I have the 325 Tactical, it has the momentary strobe + momentary maximum mode. These modes take up half the dial from the rotary dial when turned clockwise. From one of these modes you can't turn it on in constant maximum it will always be momentary. If you want maximum you will have to turn the dial counter clockwise till it's on the other half of the rotary dial where you can click it on and adjust the brightness. At whatever brightness you are on, just double click to get constant maximum. You can also just press and hold when on a lower output to get momentary maximum from that lower output.

leon2245 · Aug 29, 2015

bluemax_1 said:
I haven't had a chance to play with the HDS, but if you were say, in the Momentary Maximum or Strobe mode, what steps exactly, are required to switch to constant Maximum?

The other issue I have with the HDS is the maximum lumens and candela. For disrupting dark adapted vision over a wide variety of ambient lighting, I've found that lights that can hit the 20,000 candela mark are far more versatile and effective under various lighting conditions.

Lights in the 10,000 cd or less range are not as effective when there is more ambient light.

Max

I'd prefer 50,000cd. Should be even more effective still... for a single cell 1" diameter EDC lol!

reppans · Aug 29, 2015

RWT1405 said:
...Walking around or interviewing someone, twist on to low, and if something happens, mash hard for high....

Me+Light=Addiction said:
.... You can also just press and hold when on a lower output to get momentary maximum from that lower output.

Absolutely love these momentary max from ON (any lower mode in use) UIs - I use a loose/tight bezel work-around for the same, but for practical, not tactical purposes.

A Peak QTC with momentary plunger would another great option if only they located the twisty at the plunger end to single-hand it.

Can't imagine beating an HDS Tactical for most versatile tactical UI ever though.... even the clickies are hard to beat.

bluemax_1 · Aug 29, 2015

RWT1405 said:
Sounds interesting and good luck towards it. BUT, if you are talking about the most versatile UI for a tactical light, that is not it (at least not for me).

The most tactical UI is the one that SF has on their L1, L2 lights. Simple, and effective. A light push low, a hard mash high. Walking around or interviewing someone, twist on to low, and if something happens, mash hard for high.

That, right there, is the MOST effective tactical UI that is out there, bar none.

See, that's the thing, I would have to disagree. I think the SF interface is only ok. Half press for momentary low, full press for momentary high. Rotate slightly for constant-on low, rotate further for constant-on high.

With my interface, you don't have to switch anything to go from momentary high/Maximum to constant-on. That's the inherent advantage of forward clickies used that way: half-press to 'pop and peek', mash it for constant-on.

If the light is on Medium (and the Medium setting is programmed to the center position), and you suddenly need Maximum, rotate the selector knob one click and you have Maximum.

Max

bluemax_1 · Aug 29, 2015

Me+Light=Addiction said:
Of course the brighter lights are going to be more blinding but I find 325 lumens to be sufficiently blinding in most situations. With ambient lighting and a bit of distance it's not gonna do much, but that's the limitation you have with a 1xCR123 battery. A great tactical interface for the 1x18650 lights is the one from the PD35TAC, in tactical mode of course.

I have the 325 Tactical, it has the momentary strobe + momentary maximum mode. These modes take up half the dial from the rotary dial when turned clockwise. From one of these modes you can't turn it on in constant maximum it will always be momentary. If you want maximum you will have to turn the dial counter clockwise till it's on the other half of the rotary dial where you can click it on and adjust the brightness. At whatever brightness you are on, just double click to get constant maximum. You can also just press and hold when on a lower output to get momentary maximum from that lower output.

With the available lights and emitters, 325 lumens is adequate for many things but is equivalent to supplying the local Public Safety/PD with a .22. Yes, it can do the job in the right circumstances, but you'd be seriously limiting the effectiveness compared to what's available.

leon2245's post below may be in jest at this time (given the state of current technology) but it's true, to a point, more is better.

With current technology though, a single-cell 18650 light of a decent size maxes out at about 1000 lumens. There are other emitters available with better performance in specific things like maximum output, or smaller die sizes allowing finer focused reflectors for better throw, but currently the XM-L2 has some of the most well rounded features for a 6-7" light with a head in the 1.5 - 1.7" diameter range, i.e. something that is reasonably sized for belt or large pocket duty carry.

Well designed XM-L2 lights in that size/category can have very good spot/spill, max lumen profiles. 1000 lumens + 20,000 candela & 50+ degree spillbeam. These are parameters that are difficult to replicate with smaller form factors.

As technology progresses I'm sure even brighter lights with longer runtimes will be available, BUT with current technology, producing significantly more than 20kcd sacrifices other aspects.

The Acebeam T10 for instance, produces about 30kcd with an XM-L2. To do that, they use a deeper reflector with a much tighter/narrower spot which makes the hotspot significantly brighter, but much smaller and harder to pop someone in the eyes with from 15-20 feet away. It also produced a very narrow spillbeam which is bad for quickly checking/clearing rooms or dark alleys etc.

In addition, as tech improves, even if we reach the point where pocket sized AAA lights can easily hit the 500,000 candela range, I'm guessing legal regulations will start showing up, much like current regulations limiting unlicensed civilian ownership of lasers to Class IIIA or weaker, due to the potential for permanent eye damage with anything significantly brighter.

Max

bluemax_1 · Aug 29, 2015

reppans said:
Absolutely love these momentary max from ON (any lower mode in use) UIs - I use a loose/tight bezel work-around for the same, but for practical, not tactical purposes.

A Peak QTC with momentary plunger would another great option if only they located the twisty at the plunger end to single-hand it.

Can't imagine beating an HDS Tactical for most versatile tactical UI ever though.... even the clickies are hard to beat.

While the HDS Tactical has a very innovative interface, I think my concept still has certain advantages in some areas especially for things like US LEO use.

As mentioned in the Tactical use of strobe thread, it's more common in the U.S. for suspects to take off running than for them to physically attack an officer, which is why easy access to constant-on Maximum that has a good spillbeam profile is VERY important.

If you're checking the area due to a call, using momentary Maximum and someone takes off running, just mash the button for constant-on. You DON'T want to have to worry that your finger coming off the button can leave you in darkness while running full tilt.

That's also another reason why a wide spillbeam is important. One of the guys in the local PD blew his knee out requiring surgery because he was in foot pursuit of a suspect through a dark backyard and he didn't see the hole in the ground that he stepped into while running full tilt. This was just 2 years ago.

Back in the day when incan MagLites were the only common option, talk about making do. In comparison, current flashlights can put out way more light AND run longer.

If you're using low mode and suddenly need Maximum, just rotate over and you've got Maximum. No need to rotate over, double click, do a backbend, then somersault or what-not. Rotate the selector knob. Quick and simple.

Max

Robone · Aug 29, 2015

bluemax_1 said:
I haven't had a chance to play with the HDS, but if you were say, in the Momentary Maximum or Strobe mode, what steps exactly, are required to switch to constant Maximum?

The other issue I have with the HDS is the maximum lumens and candela. For disrupting dark adapted vision over a wide variety of ambient lighting, I've found that lights that can hit the 20,000 candela mark are far more versatile and effective under various lighting conditions.

Lights in the 10,000 cd or less range are not as effective when there is more ambient light.

Max[/QUOTE
The HDS philosophy is to NOT disrupt adapted night vision. When in momentary max or strobe you can't switch to constant. This is by design, specifically for tactical purposes. If you rotate it to a lower position (output) you can directly access the selected output or maximum from off. Momentary or constant for both output levels, if it's constant on for the lower output you have direct access to maximum momentary or constant. Even 100 lumens, regardless of beam pattern is enough to disrupt an attacker or assailants visual horizon. That said I too think that 20k~ is the most versatile BUT 20k at 1000 lumens and 20k at 500 lumens are two totally different beams to me. How do YOU feel about the balance of lux and lumens?

RWT1405 · Aug 29, 2015

"If the light is on Medium (and the Medium setting is programmed to the center position), and you suddenly need Maximum, rotate the selector knob one click and you have Maximum."

In a TRUE high stress (tactical) situation, requiring anything other then the "hard mash" will likely not work (or be remembered). There is a reason the KISS method is believed in.

The SF UI is the only one that allows going from low, to high, without clicking, rotating, or whatever (at least that I am aware of), only requiring the "hard mash".

So I will have to disagree with you, on that, bluemax 1. But hey, if it works for you, so be it. For me, it is not tactical, nor would I rely upon it in a high stress situation.

Me+Light=Addiction · Aug 29, 2015

Yeah in a stressful situation you don't want to be rotating the back of the light, it's simply too hard. The reason the HDS has momentary maximum is that if you drop the light in a stressful situation, it will go off rather than blind you. I think the HDS tactical light would be a good LEO light because it combines the usefulness of the low outputs with the tactical interface.

Also, what you are describing sounds a lot like an Elzetta with a high-low switch. Momentary in high and low, you can also just mash it on and when you need high from low you just rotate the back to get high.
I don't think the rotating of the back is desirable as this requires you to change the position of the hand you are holding the light with.

The SF ui also looks very good to use in stressful situations, just push and you got max.
You might need an extra step to get to constant on, but once you need constant on the immediate threat is likely to be gone so you have that extra time to rotate the back-end or whatever.

Grizzman · Aug 29, 2015

It is a daunting task to create the ultimate tactical interface, since all situations and individuals are unique. I agree with the above that the Surefire L-series interface, from a purely tactical perspective, is as close to ideal in a multi-mode light as I've found. It is still not what every person would consider perfect. I don't expect any manufacturer to satisfy everybody. If you think your design is perfect, then good for you, and good luck.

With an overhand grip, the Elzetta with high/low tailcap is very good, and possibly the best I expect to find in the near future. Having said that, the task of tightening the tailcap to activate high from low may not be possible after an adrenaline dump. The switch and tailcap shape are excellent. With any part of the thumb except the end on the switch, it's basically impossible to click the switch to constant on, no matter how hard it's pressed. If the light needs to be clicked on, it's quite simple to reposition the thumb.

While I don't have an HDS tactical light, I've had the experience a few times of my clicky failing to turn off when I've pressed the electronic button for too long. This activates a different preset, instead of turning off the light. Needing to rotate the Tactical's tailcap to a different position to achieve a specific operation (like constant on) seems no better than my LX2's operation.

All other multi-mode UIs fall significantly short in at least one, if not multiple areas. What's my "perfect tactical UI"? Single mode with a forward clicky with a long travel.

ForrestChump · Aug 29, 2015

Singe mode, forward clicky, half press for momentary, full press for ON.

flashlight nut · Aug 29, 2015

I know this topic has been discussed to death in the past in many threads but it is worth rehashing now and again. As mentioned, there will never be a "Tactical" UI that everyone will agree is the best in all situations. My experience with a forward clicky UI while actually shooting low light courses is a recipe for disaster. Even with minimal stress put upon a shooter, knowing it is training and having no expectation of serious physical injury or death, that half press eventually turns into a full press, leaving the light on while reloading, clearing malfunctions, moving to/from cover or accidentally dropping the light. Now the shooter is lighting himself/herself up showing the bad guy what is happening. What's even worse is when the shooter is in the middle of a reload or clearing procedure, realizes the light is still on, freezes for a moment and now focuses on shutting off the light (clumsily I might add) instead of getting the firearm back into operation and fumbling with both out in the open. I personally plan for worst case scenario knowing that I either have to hold the button in or twist the tailcap for constant on. My primary duty light is a 6P with M61SHO drop-in and combat ring. Again, these are my experiences. YMMV.

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