minor rant: why don't people use their lights in the fog??

just an observation from this morning's commute... it was a moderately heavy fog, limiting vision to 100 feet or so. I was on my bicycle, with good lights front and rear, and with a safety green vest. Having done my best to be seen, I am somewhat amazed at the folks driving around with no lights at all! These folks seem to commonly drive fog colored cars too.. medium gray or black.

I was on side roads with light traffic, so it wasn't a particular safety issue at the time. Still, I was wondering if there was some way to communicate to people that they ought to turn their lights on. If I was in a car, I'd flash my lights. On the bike, I just assume that they are busy talking on the phone or shaving and wouldn't notice me turning my bike lights on and off.

As with most other road hazards, my main goal is to not get killed by these people and not try to correct the situation myself. Am I mistaken? Is there a way to educate people such that they will be more aware of the need to turn their lights on? Is there an aspect to this that I haven't considered?

At this risk of this thread getting booted to the Café or the Underground, I'd like to know if I'm alone with this annoyance, and if there's something that can be done about it.

they are right, low beams reflect of suspended water droplets and make it worst, fog lights even if usefull, but most cars have next to useless fogs, can not be turned without lows being on, so it defeats the purpose. some cars do not even come with fogs, i just got 2016 sonata, and none of the trims offer fog lights.
they prbly should have parking lights on thou. 100 feet visibility, not bad if you drive slow, as you should in a fog. imo

You're not alone. It is tough educating people who don't want to learn.

alpg88 said:

they are right, low beams reflect of suspended water droplets and make it worst, fog lights even if usefull, but most cars have next to useless fogs, can not be turned without lows being on, so it defeats the purpose. some cars do not even come with fogs, i just got 2016 sonata, and none of the trims offer fog lights.
they prbly should have parking lights on thou. 100 feet visibility, not bad if you drive slow, as you should in a fog. imo

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They (the people not using their headlamps) are wrong.
People following your advice will get hurt. 100 feet of visibility is painfully little visibility-- it warrants the use of low beam headlamps in the daytime.

hmmm.... did I say 100 feet? That might be a bit severe. It might have been 200 feet. Not that bad when on side streets traveling at 35mph. It's still nice to be able to see the headlights from a greater distance, especially when approaching an uncontrolled intersection.

I'm just wondering how people can get into a car with very limited visibility and not think "hey, I ought to turn on my lights!" Of course, I also wonder why people don't use their turn signals, etc. The people in question are probably those who think "I can see the road, therefore I don't need to turn my lights on". They don't seem to be people who ask themselves "how can I communicate my intentions to others, play well with others, and be a good member of society, etc".

Steve K said:

hmmm.... did I say 100 feet? That might be a bit severe. It might have been 200 feet.
. The people in question are probably those who think "I can see the road, therefore I don't need to turn my lights on". They don't seem to be people who ask themselves "how can I communicate my intentions to others, play well with others, and be a good member of society, etc".

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parking lights, front and back, you should be able to see them, but driving with a wall of light of your own headlight reflections in front of your car. is not such a great idea, try it. i have more chances to miss you, i might not see your light, because my own headlights bling me, 200 feet is plenty, you just have to slow down, 25-30mph is fast enough for that condition. i suspect you are not riding your bicycle on a freeway are you?

if someone thinks i'm wrong i'd love to hear why, and why driving half blind is a good idea.

My pet peeve is drivers who don't turn on their lights during rainy, heavily overcast days. These vehicles can be difficult to see, especially in the rearview mirror.

SubLGT said:

My pet peeve is drivers who don't turn on their lights during rainy, heavily overcast days. These vehicles can be difficult to see, especially in the rearview mirror.

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Same here. It's required by law in some states, but I've yet to see an instance of enforcement.

and i agree with you, but rain is different, it does not make your own headlights blind you, most states even have laws, "wiper on headlights on", but fog really changes how we see things, they did invent fog lights for a reason, but no one felt the need to invent special rain lights, afaik.

I distinctly recall there being a whole section in drivers ed about when to use what automotive lights in what situations, more often than not, people just don't care. It's a shame. I've had people drive around in dark/fog situations with no lighting, and people using HID modded high beams AND fog lights on perfectly clear nights blinding everyone within eyesight.
Police around here (FL) don't seem to care. So there's little to no enforcement to encourage safe lighting habits. There's a jerk here in town, driving a very jacked up pickup truck, with illegal HID modded headlights, fog lights AND he has 6.... Count that SIX extremely high power LED light bars wire tied to his bumper/grill! Drives around with all of them on, all the time. Cares not that he's blinding everyone.
Unless police act on these issues, very little will change, since there's no consequences..... Unless someone gets hurt...and even then, many people choose not to change their actions.

I guess a lot of the issue is where you grew up driving.
It's only been the last ten years or so that a lot of states moved to requiring headlamps while using windshield wipers.
If you spend any time driving interstate you quickly learn the rules of the road or pay dearly.
Many years ago, I was in fog so thick, you could only see one white stripe in front of you. After driving two hours and only going 15 miles I called it quits and went back home. Very mentally racking when you're on the edge of the seat making sure you're not going to drive over someone.
In you case, I'd of been on the sidewalk. Bikes get no respect in good weather much less in a reduced visibility situation.

alpg88 said:

parking lights, front and back, you should be able to see them, but driving with a wall of light of your own headlight reflections in front of your car. is not such a great idea, try it. i have more chances to miss you, i might not see your light, because my own headlights bling me, 200 feet is plenty, you just have to slow down, 25-30mph is fast enough for that condition. i suspect you are not riding your bicycle on a freeway are you?
.

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honestly, parking lights would have made me happy, especially for those cars that are the color of the fog itself. It's just a courtesy to others to make your vehicle visible, and certainly reduces the chance of someone running into you.

I don't ride my bikes on the freeway. Somedays I do bike commute on a road with a 55mph speed limit, but today was all on roads with limits of 35mph or less. About a third was on a recreational path where all I had to worry about was squirrels jumping into my spokes.

i'm riding mine in nyc, here drivers do not care for you, for the most part, even at night there are plenty of street lights, and you basically do not need a light to illuminate the road, but to make sure drivers see you. or more like notice you, what makes it worst, former mayor was a big fan of biking, there are so many bike lines now, however, he took 1 line, and basicaly turned it into bike lane, so half the roads in nyc, lost 1 lane, so now we have same amount of cars driving on less roads that creates constant traffics, it was a lot easier when we had 2 lines and bikes shared roads with cars. especially every other block someone is double parked and blocks bike lane, so you have to go around cars, and for that cops give out tickets, crazy, uh. i have to dodge cars everytime i ride, unless i'm riding on few bike roads that have no cars, but there is another hazzard there, people do not care it is bike laine, they walk there, so i have to dodge people there instead of cars. and cops do give out tickets if they catch you on a sidewalk. so i can relate to drivers and rides at the same time

alpg88 said:

and i agree with you, but rain is different, it does not make your own headlights blind you, most states even have laws, "wiper on headlights on", but fog really changes how we see things, they did invent fog lights for a reason, but no one felt the need to invent special rain lights, afaik.

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They invented fog lamps long before modern headlamp design. Glare control of modern low beam headlamps, and width of beam of modern low beams, and their increased but not overbearing foreground lighting, have almost rendered fog lamps obsolete. Even a decent halogen sealed beam isn't going to blind you on low beam. With fog thick enough to merit genuine fog lamps, you're not going to be looking very far down the road anyway.

You still need the other vehicles' headlamps for their own conspicuity. This is another reason why *rear* fog lamps exist; fog can be thick enough that the the rear lamps and the rear reflectors will do painfully little to increase the conspicuity of the car in front of you.

alpg88 said:

so now we have same amount of cars driving on less roads that creates constant traffics

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I realize that it sounds like it can't possibly be the case, but more road means more traffic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

alpg88 said:

they are right

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No, they're not. When it's raining, snowing, or foggy, no matter what time of day, the low beam headlamps are the correct and best lamps to use.

low beams reflect of suspended water droplets and make it worst

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Obviously drivers must slow down in accordance with prevailing weather, but no, low beams (especially US-spec low beams) have strict limits on the amount of upward stray light they are allowed to produce. Upward stray light is what causes the kind of backscatter you're talking about.

fog lights even if usefull, but most cars have next to useless fogs

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Fog lamps in and of themselves are useless except at extremely low speeds.

can not be turned without lows being on, so it defeats the purpose.

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What are you considering to be the purpose of fog lamps?

they prbly should have parking lights on

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That's wrong. In most states it is not legal to drive with just the parking lights, and that's for a very good reason: they're not adequate.

if someone thinks i'm wrong i'd love to hear why

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It's because you're giving advice that goes against reality and law.

and why driving half blind is a good idea.

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Nobody says driving half blind is a good idea. You are assuming facts not in evidence and setting up strawman arguments, neither of which will win you the debate.

rain is different, it does not make your own headlights blind you

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Rain, fog, and snow behave very similarly in terms of how they affect the driver's ability to see.

most states even have laws, "wiper on headlights on"

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Some states do, but unfortunately it is not true that most states do. All states should; the data clearly show such laws prevent crashes.

but fog really changes how we see things

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...in the same way as falling rain and falling snow.

they did invent fog lights for a reason, but no one felt the need to invent special rain lights

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Same lamps, nominally. They were invented a very long time ago, when they were the best that could be done with the limited knowledge and technology available at the time.

yoyoman said:

You're not alone. It is tough educating people who don't want to learn.

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It certainly is!

Two years ago i was coming back from Paraguay to my Hometown. I had to cross two states that are close to a huge river that goes to the sea. Unlucky me that night was one of the nights with lots of fog less than 100 feet... That night we saw a few accidents due to the fog, one guy was going way too fast and hit a toll booth lucky there were not deaths just some minor injures for the driver.
That night i was with a Peugeot 207 and the way i set the lights were the next. Low Beans+Front Fogs+Rear fogs+Hazzard lights and of course slow speed.
IMHO i think that´s the safest way to drive with heavy fog.

-Virgil- said:

It's because you're giving advice that goes against reality and law.
.

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no one is asking for an advice, this thread is a rant, and I responded with what I thought about it, turns out I am wrong, I actually google'd It this time,

chillinn said:

I realize that it sounds like it can't possibly be the case, but more road means more traffic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

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I believe that, however less roads does not mean less traffic either. what actually did help a lot, are no left turn signs on most long blocks, cars do not wait for opposite traffic to clear for left turn, no tail of cars waiting behind