Tiny runtime on ultra flooders - am I unlucky?

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

Hi all. I'm new here, but have been lurking for a few months and wanted to thank you all for providing such a useful information resource.

I come begging advice. I have a specific, odd, need for high lumen flooders: I play tiddlywinks (seriously, I'm the world number 13, you can look it up), often in pubs with poor lighting. Given a white ceiling, my plan was to point a bright flooder at it, and hence have enough light to see to play. Somewhere in the 2000 lumen range works, but the more the merrier.

So. I bought a Thrunite TN36UT, and tried Thrunite's 3400mAh cells, which as far as I can tell people have used with this light. High mode fine, turbo mode was a no-show - with either of the two sets of cells I bought.

Blaming the flashlight (because others reported similar problems), I returned it, and (partly because it seems impossible to get another TN36UT in the UK) tried a Niwalker MM15MB. Still no turbo mode, and I decided the cells couldn't be up to the current or were tripping their protectors.

So, I've since tried some efest IMR 2500mAh 20A/35A cells, some Samsung INR18650-25Rs and some LGDBHE41865s - all new and all just charged. Good news, they all activate turbo mode on the MM15MB. Bad news, for less than a minute. I was expecting about ten minutes and for the flashlight to get warm to touch before it cuts out. It barely does. The power switch LED IS red, which could mean the batteries are somehow inadequate (according to Niwalker's manual), but it's red as soon as the flashlight is on, in any mode, and other modes work fine. The TN36UT's switch LED suggested the cells were ok. I now have a lot of cells (not by the standards of this forum, but...) and an expensive 2600 lumen flashlight with brief delusions of 6800 lumens. For what it's worth, the light is cutting out, not stepping down to "high". Even in 2600 lumen mode, the light cuts out after about half an hour, not the 2.8 hours Niwalker suggests (I'd expect less from a lower capacity battery, but not this much - I suspect thermals again, especially since the flashlight can go back on after a few minutes).

Question: Is a few seconds normal runtime in turbo for these flooders, or is there something wrong with the thermals of my MM15MB in addition to my battery troubles? Is it worth trying to return it (to Hong Kong!) out is this within expectations? I'm considering getting another TN36UT when I'm in the US (where they're easier to access) next week, but will go for something less exotic if turbo is going to be so transient. Or am I unwittingly using inadequate cells?

Thanks for any illumination you can provide to my situation!

- Andrew Garrard
(Forum newbie, MM15MB, Eagtac GX30L2R, TN Ti3, TN 2C V2+18350)

bykfixer · Jan 10, 2016

In general lights aren't meant to stay in turbo. So they step down.

If the tiddlywinks world title is at stake you'll need to avoid those tin toy lights and spend some real dough on a SureFire HellFighter light or something like that...and wear yellow colored lenses to cause rooms to appear brighter. Yellow Gargoyles...

bykfixer · Jan 10, 2016

In general lights aren't meant to stay in turbo. So they step down.

If the tiddlywinks world title is at stake you'll need to avoid those tin toy lights and spend some real dough on a SureFire HellFighter light or something like that...and wear yellow colored lenses to cause rooms to appear brighter. Yellow Gargoyles...

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

bykfixer said:
In general lights aren't meant to stay in turbo. So they step down.

I'd expected a step down, just maybe not quite so fast or while the flashlight was still comfortable to hand-hold. Re-checking Selfbuilt's review, maybe this is normal MM15 behaviour, especially if the MB version can be expected to overheat faster - though I'm a bit worried about the switch LED always being red, never permanent green. Reading again, it does sound as though I could do better from a TN36, if the UT doesn't throttle too much earlier, especially if I point a fan at it. I'm not sure why there aren't more of these flashlights with active cooling - a CPU fan wouldn't take much power and can dissipate a lot of heat. Oh well. Maybe I have a custom build in my future.

bykfixer said:
If the tiddlywinks world title is at stake you'll need to avoid those tin toy lights and spend some real dough on a SureFire HellFighter light or something like that...and wear yellow colored lenses to cause rooms to appear brighter. Yellow Gargoyles...

Alas, the main reason we need light is so we can see what colour the winks are! I did look at HID, and I've taken 500W halogen workshop lights before (why does almost nobody make portable mercury discharge lamps?), but something that fits easily in a bag and doesn't need plugging in sounded valuable. Just not as valuable as a Hellfighter! (And I'd be paying for throw I don't need...)

NoNotAgain · Jan 10, 2016

Fluppeteer said:
Hi all. I'm new here, but have been lurking for a few months and wanted to thank you all for providing such a useful information resource.

I come begging advice. I have a specific, odd, need for high lumen flooders: I play tiddlywinks (seriously, I'm the world number 13, you can look it up), often in pubs with poor lighting. Given a white ceiling, my plan was to point a bright flooder at it, and hence have enough light to see to play. Somewhere in the 2000 lumen range works, but the more the merrier.

So. I bought a Thrunite TN36UT, and tried Thrunite's 3400mAh cells, which as far as I can tell people have used with this light. High mode fine, turbo mode was a no-show - with either of the two sets of cells I bought.

Blaming the flashlight (because others reported similar problems), I returned it, and (partly because it seems impossible to get another TN36UT in the UK) tried a Niwalker MM15MB. Still no turbo mode, and I decided the cells couldn't be up to the current or were tripping their protectors.

Question: Is a few seconds normal runtime in turbo for these flooders, or is there something wrong with the thermals of my MM15MB in addition to my battery troubles? Is it worth trying to return it (to Hong Kong!) out is this within expectations? I'm considering getting another TN36UT when I'm in the US (where they're easier to access) next week, but will go for something less exotic if turbo is going to be so transient. Or am I unwittingly using inadequate cells?

Thanks for any illumination you can provide to my situation!

- Andrew Garrard
(Forum newbie, MM15MB, Eagtac GX30L2R, TN Ti3, TN 2C V2+18350)

As long as you aren't playing with manhole covers, all is well!

How tall are these ceilings that you're bouncing light off of them to play by reflected light? Getting to the MM15, which I don't own, all of the run times listed by the manufacturers are aggregate numbers not continuous like normal people think. Still, when run on a lower level, the light should not be tripping a thermal overload shutting down the light unless you're wrapping it in a coat for tail standing.

When the light shuts off, have you measured the voltage in the batteries? This would rule out that the batteries were the cause. The Thrunite 3400 mAH battery uses the Panasonic 18650B cell inside with a PCB as the protection circuit that will trip around 6 amps. I've heard the MM15 does require high drain batteries, so you're headed the correct direction with the new batteries.

I'd be tempted to purchase one of the Rev Captors flood lights and mount it overhead. Even on a lower setting, the light provides a super wide viewing angle. Being a custom light, there's going to be additional heat sinking internally.

I've tail standed a Nitecore TM06 light starting off in turbo and allowed it to step down when it needed. I was able to run the light on the third power setting for close to 2 hours before running out of juice.

Stay away from the manhole covers or you'll get a hernia.

d123 · Jan 10, 2016

If it's just a static light to stand upright and illuminate the roof, wouldn't 1 or 2 of the older style portable 'searchlights' with a sealed rechargeable 6/12v battery do the job easier and cheaper?

This style:

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

NoNotAgain said:
As long as you aren't playing with manhole covers, all is well!

Nope, just tiny plastic disks that are hard to see in the dark. At least the mat is white!

NoNotAgain said:
How tall are these ceilings that you're bouncing light off of them to play by reflected light?

Not very - maybe 8'? But the diffusion effect is useful to stop us blocking our own light.

NoNotAgain said:
Still, when run on a lower level, the light should not be tripping a thermal overload shutting down the light unless you're wrapping it in a coat for tail standing.

Just plain tail standing on a table. I'm suspicious that the the MM15 is aggressive both at heat management and voltage.

NoNotAgain said:
When the light shuts off, have you measured the voltage in the batteries? This would rule out that the batteries were the cause.

Not with a volt meter. My charger reckons they're still 3/4 charged. I'd hope four different battery types from different manufacturers would have ruled out a duff set.

NoNotAgain said:
The Thrunite 3400 mAH battery uses the Panasonic 18650B cell inside with a PCB as the protection circuit that will trip around 6 amps.

Thrunite quote 7A, and claim the TN36UT needed 5 for turbo. I don't trust the tolerances here - I'm surprised several people seem to have got them working.
may go

NoNotAgain said:
I'd be tempted to purchase one of the Rev Captors flood lights and mount it overhead.

Good suggestion. I'm a bit way of custom lights because of convenience of returns (I'm in the UK) - no insult intended to those offering the service here. But I may go there.

NoNotAgain said:
I've tail standed a Nitecore TM06 light starting off in turbo and allowed it to step down when it needed.

Good to know. I may resort to that. I'm inclined to give a TN36UT another go, hoping for no problems this time, and I may source a TM06 if I still still struggle. Sigh.

NoNotAgain said:
Stay away from the manhole covers or you'll get a hernia.

Well, I do need the exercise! Thanks for the advice.:thumbsup:

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

d123 said:
If it's just a static light to stand upright and illuminate the roof, wouldn't 1 or 2 of the older style portable 'searchlights' with a sealed rechargeable 6/12v battery do the job easier and cheaper?

Thanks, d123. Maybe. The problem is a lot of the affordable ones just aren't that bright by modern standards (at least in lumens), and a coke can light plus some extra 16850s is a lot easier to carry in a bag otherwise full of camera gear. The big searchlights would be okay if they were definitely going to be used - but sometimes a venue actually has decent lighting, and we don't know in advance. I don't mind bringing workstation lights, but I do mind bringing them and not using them!

Str8stroke · Jan 10, 2016

"I play tiddlywinks" Glad you clarified that.

As others mentioned: Make sure you check turbo or High times on the lights you are considering. There are very few that will run wide open unlimited time. If you do plan to do this, I strongly suggest you keep with high quality protected cells.

What about getting a custom Mule from one of the members vin? He could build you a light built to handle exactly what you need, with additional heat sinking and wiring designed to handle the load and heat. If you are serious about your Tiddly Winks, get serious about your lightning. hehehe
Example: http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?400812-TK75vn77-Ultimate-Flood-)

Ok, wild idea: What about a headlamp?

holygeez03 · Jan 10, 2016

First of all, the thought of someone playing world class tiddlywinks put a smile on my face... so thanks.

Second, I wouldn't think most pubs have white ceilings? Even if they do, it seems inefficient to attempt a constant ceiling bounce...

I would think you are better off running multiple small lights with diffuser wands... effectively making lanterns...or just use LED lanterns like the Fenix CL20/25?

What if the participants wore headlamps? Especially mule or frosted lens headlamps offered by Zebralight (with high CRI for a great gaming experience)... you could also use ZL headlamps as right-angle lights and point them at the game board while tailstanding?

The other option that comes to mind is to use a compact tripod or camera light stand and mount a light overhead, pointing down at the table... then you could use a much lower mode versus ceiling-bounce. You could also use the tripod to mount a video camera and record your matches, edit a sweet slow-motion highlight video, and post it here for us to see!

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

Str8stroke said:
"I play tiddlywinks" Glad you clarified that.

Helps if you know my motivation! Thanks for your thoughts.

Str8stroke said:
As others mentioned: Make sure you check turbo or High times on the lights you are considering. There are very few that will run wide open unlimited time.

There's the claimed time and the actual time... I certainly don't expect full lumens for hours, but reports of >4000 for 80 minutes would actually be very useful. 1 minute, not so much.

Str8stroke said:
If you do plan to do this, I strongly suggest you keep with high quality protected cells.

That's been worrying me. The Thrunite protected cells I have (as reported, rebadged Panasonics) appear to trip on both the high flood lights I've tried. The high current cells I have are unprotected - obviously I'm trying not to run them flat, and I believe both the MM15MB and NT36UT cut out early to protect from over draining. I'm a bit hazy on how relevant protection is to the latest high current chemistry - but also where to find a protected cell that will reliably offer 10A+, since "7" clearly didn't cut it. Please advise?

Str8stroke said:
What about getting a custom Mule from one of the members vin? He could build you a light built to handle exactly what you need, with additional heat sinking and wiring designed to handle the load and heat. If you are serious about your Tiddly Winks, get serious about your lightning.

Well, I'd love to employ Vinh, but I already claim to have spent the most on photography equipment for a sport relative to the sport's budget, and spending a fortune on another obsession is pushing my resources. Besides, the TK75 sounds a little non-portable. Though I want the 2x18650s that can drive it! I don't promise not to resort to a conversation with Vinh in the future...

Str8stroke said:
Ok, wild idea: What about a headlamp?

Crazy talk! Actually, I've been known to use a AAA flashlight in my left hand, but it would be nice if I could light the event, not just my own shots. And shining my light in the eyes of my opponents will get me kicked out. But yes, you're talking complete reason - but where's the fun in that?

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

holygeez03 said:
First of all, the thought of someone playing world class tiddlywinks put a smile on my face... so thanks.

Glad to share the happiness! Just proving there are still new uses for high-end lights out there. (We've been using small ones for umpiring decisions for years. You'll be pleased to know there was a big rant about tint when the first LED torches appeared.)

holygeez03 said:
Second, I wouldn't think most pubs have white ceilings? Even if they do, it seems inefficient to attempt a constant ceiling bounce...

Annoyingly accurate. The pub I played in most recently had a nice white ceiling... With a spotlight in it. The bit of the pub which was dimly lit had a dark red ceiling. The workaround is a strategic photographic reflector, because I'm not carrying a flashlight with a 40" head! Still, a lot of places with low ceilings are mostly white, to help a feeling of space.

holygeez03 said:
I would think you are better off running multiple small lights with diffuser wands... effectively making lanterns...or just use LED lanterns like the Fenix CL20/25?

That's why I got the GX30L2R - but direct light is a bit dazzling. I'll look into the Fenix lanterns, though - thanks.

holygeez03 said:
What if the participants wore headlamps? Especially mule or frosted lens headlamps offered by Zebralight (with high CRI for a great gaming experience)... you could also use ZL headlamps as right-angle lights and point them at the game board while tailstanding?

I doubt I could get players to wear anything special - they don't have a history of going out of their way to help themselves. I'll investigate some smaller lights, though; diffusers might avoid some of the dazzle risk - thanks. Any suggestions for cheap ones with tripod sockets? I have many tiny table-top tripods which I could use for steering...

holygeez03 said:
The other option that comes to mind is to use a compact tripod or camera light stand and mount a light overhead, pointing down at the table... then you could use a much lower mode versus ceiling-bounce.

I did try a full photography tripod on the MM15. Two problems: 1) we need diffused light, or the moment someone steps in the way the mat gets split into white and pitch black, and 2) weirdly the tripod socket on the MM15 isn't very deep, so I can't actually get it properly mounted on a quick release plate. But worth a try with more experiments!

holygeez03 said:
You could also use the tripod to mount a video camera and record your matches, edit a sweet slow-motion highlight video, and post it here for us to see!

Funny you should mention it. My ulterior motive for the lights is that I have a Nikon V1 which can shoot at 1200 fps - but if I do that indoors I get mains strobe on the lights. I'm hoping a flood LED will help in the sunless seasons. Slow-mos to be added to http://www.cutwc.org/TheGame/Shots/ soon!

NoNotAgain · Jan 10, 2016

For what you are attempting, a boom stand with one of the new photo LED lights would be a much better match. Something like this light. This one costs $160 USD.

genaray_sp_e_240b_spectroled_essential_240_bi_color_996876.jpg

Fluppeteer · Jan 10, 2016

NoNotAgain said:
For what you are attempting, a boom stand with one of the new photo LED lights would be a much better match. Something like this light. This one costs $160 USD.

Thanks. It would be an option. Things putting me off that approach:

1) the battery powered ones are generally not very bright.
2) once I'm using mains power, I may as well bounce a workstation halogen off the ceiling (though I'd take metal halide if I could find any)
3) all of these are quite big compared with the coke can lights, and I'm never sure they'll be needed and worth it (for game play - for shot videos I can be closer
and use less light); doubly so if I rely on multiple head-height booms
4) while an LED bank gives soft lighting from a photographic perspective, it's still visually bright - lighting up the whole ceiling (or a 40" reflector) is less dazzling, and can light more than one game
5) it's still a light source small enough to be blocked by players in the wrong place - often the light contrast is the issue, not the absolute illumination

That doesn't entirely rule out a bank, though. I'll certainly keep them in mind. Thanks for the pointer.

zs&tas · Jan 11, 2016

I would check your charger, test voltage with a seperate meter after charging. Not sure why your having issues the niwalker has a big timed stepdown but the thrunite should be thermally current controlled - it will provide all the light it can at a set temp. I would have thought the smaller thrunite tn30 3200 lumens would be more efficient, less heat build up too quick ? .good unprotected cells should be fine you will no when to change em out because the light will just get dimmer.

Fluppeteer · Jan 11, 2016

zs&tas said:
I would check your charger, test voltage with a seperate meter after charging.

I'll investigate with a multimeter. They mostly seemed to ship charged, though. I'm thinking of getting a TN36UT with a charger while I'm in the US (I suspect the recent disappearance in the UK is because they started bundling them and importing cells was an issue - or they may just have been out of stock over the holidays) which would give me a back-up option. I can't say my 18650 charger is a premium model, and I was starting to worry about it.

zs&tas said:
Not sure why your having issues the niwalker has a big timed stepdown but the thrunite should be thermally current controlled - it will provide all the light it can at a set temp.

If I hold down the turbo switch on the Niwalker, it gets uncomfortably toasty after about two minutes (while flickering as it tries to turn off). It does seem a bit less finned than the TN36, which might affect dissipation (although I wouldn't be able to run the TN36 with the case off to keep the batteries cool). I'll give a TN36UT another go and see where it gets me. If I trusted the sealing not to leak under thermal changes, I'd dunk the whole thing in a bucket of water and have done with it...

zs&tas said:
I would have thought the smaller thrunite tn30 3200 lumens would be more efficient, less heat build up too quick ?

Looking at TurboBB's review (http://budgetlightforum.com/node/41087) the TN36UT seems to maintain higher output until the cells die. The TN30 quickly drops to roughly the level of the TN36UT or MM15MB in "high" mode. But it's cheaper, so if other options fail...

zs&tas said:
.good unprotected cells should be fine you will no when to change em out because the light will just get dimmer.

Reassuring, thank you.

holygeez03 · Jan 11, 2016

Plenty of good ideas to go around on here... it sounds like you already have one, but I would also think that a photography umbrella reflector would be an option to bounce off instead of non-white ceilings.

Also, instead of trying to mount the light to a tripod using an actual socket in the light... rig up a clamp-style system so that it doesn't limit your light selection... and you could easily attach multiple lights (and other stuff) to the tripod or light stand... a light stand is basically just a lighter, more compact "tripod" that sometimes has a smaller footprint and does not have a movable head for pan/tilt.

Now... where can I get a reasonably priced but high-quality/value tiddlywinks set in the US?

Fluppeteer · Jan 11, 2016

holygeez03 said:
Plenty of good ideas to go around on here...

Indeed - much appreciated, all.

holygeez03 said:
it sounds like you already have one, but I would also think that a photography umbrella reflector would be an option to bounce off instead of non-white ceilings.

Good thought. I'd like the wider spread of the ceiling, but if that's not an option then the umbrella is a good idea, if only for robustness.

holygeez03 said:
Also, instead of trying to mount the light to a tripod using an actual socket in the light... rig up a clamp-style system so that it doesn't limit your light selection...

Thinking about using the suggestion of dotting multiple small lights around (sports stadium style - with some kind of jerry-rigged diffusers that may or may not involve a bulk pack of condoms, or at least balloons), the clamp idea is very appealing. I have a number of small springy tripods, but finding small cheap lights with sockets is probably hard. I'll look into 90 degree headlamp lights, but I really need to point down off shelves - and I can dangle lights from ceilings with my tripod rigs.

Worth a try for the big lights, too - I have at least one heavy duty clamp that should cope, though I've never tried to melt it. I wonder where retort stand clamps are sold? There are certainly options!

holygeez03 said:
and you could easily attach multiple lights (and other stuff) to the tripod or light stand... a light stand is basically just a lighter, more compact "tripod" that sometimes has a smaller footprint and does not have a movable head for pan/tilt.

I have a couple, but they don't fold down as small a some of my tripod options - and I really want to spread the lights out, so mounting multiple lights in one place is probably less useful (but mounting a fan might be). Still, worth a try for car-based events. They're what my umbrella and reflector holder fit to, so once I'm playing with modifiers, they're a sensible approach. Did I mention I have too much photography kit?

Thanks again, all - this is plenty for me to be trying out. The current plan is to seek a TN36UT and probably a TN30 while I'm in the US and they're cheap/available, and experiment with multiple smaller lights as well. If that doesn't work it's going to be a chat with Vinh and a CPU fan.

holygeez03 said:
Now... where can I get a reasonably priced but high-quality/value tiddlywinks set in the US?

www.tiddlywinks.org - but not in bulk! (There's a world shortage of small green winks. Don't ask, serious problem...)

holygeez03 · Jan 11, 2016

I can't get anywhere on that site that actually directs me to tournament grade tiddlywinks sets...

Semi-transparent plastic drinking cups make decent diffusers... especially on table-tops...

It would be easy to rig up clamps and velco straps to attach lights to various tripods and other things... there are also super cheap "blocks" with velcro that are meant to cheaply attach a light to bicycle handlebars, but can be re-purposed to attach lights to other things.

This is what I meant by light-stand... you must be using really small tripods if they are more compact and lighter than this:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/262758-REG/Impact_LS_6B_Light_Stand_Black.html

Fluppeteer · Jan 11, 2016

holygeez03 said:
I can't get anywhere on that site that actually directs me to tournament grade tiddlywinks sets...

Yes, the English Tiddlywinks Association aren't really set up like a company, and the North American Tiddlywinks Association is, if anything, more constrained. You'll be surprised to hear it's an amateur sport. But if Rick can't send you anything, try ETwA.org...

holygeez03 said:
Semi-transparent plastic drinking cups make decent diffusers... especially on table-tops...

I was worried they'd be too opaque, although putting the light inside and using tissue paper over the top might work. Good idea though, and less alarming than the condom approach.

holygeez03 said:
It would be easy to rig up clamps and velco straps to attach lights to various tripods and other things... there are also super cheap "blocks" with velcro that are meant to cheaply attach a light to bicycle handlebars, but can be re-purposed to attach lights to other things.

Now you mention it, I have some Velcro cable ties. This is looking cheaper with every post...

holygeez03 said:
This is what I meant by light-stand... you must be using really small tripods if they are more compact and lighter than this

Yup, I have a couple of those. As for tripods, it depends what I'm doing. For small lights, I have several table top tripods, and a few gorillapods. For floor standing, a Tamrac ZipShot or a Velbon VTP-787 is tiny, and even a REXi-L (that will hold a DSLR securely) folds up to be short. My big tripods (TVC-34L being biggest) are chunkier than the light stands - although being carbon they're not much heavier. I often use them for flash guns as well as for the camera, because they're more flexible than real light stands. If I set fire to one with a flooder, I'll report back!

Thanks again. Time to experiment...

Tiny runtime on ultra flooders - am I unlucky?

Newly Enlightened

Flashaholic

Flashaholic

Newly Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Flashlight Enthusiast

Newly Enlightened

Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Enlightened

Newly Enlightened

Similar threads