I have a 2004 Camry base model which didn't come with fog lights. The deluxe models have fog lights. I have a plastic insert where the fog lights would go. My question is if I installed the fog lights am I going to get any noticeable improvement? The times I have problems seeing are in town with lots of stray external lighting, from street lights, other cars, gas stations etc that make it hard to see the road in front of me.
Do fog lights add much benefit?
- Thread starter Dave H
- Start date
Help Support Candle Power Flashlight Forum
- Status
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
Using fog lamps in situations that do not call for fog lamps will mean even MORE stray lighting, making it hard to see where you need to see in front of you. Unless you plan on using the fog lamps ONLY in heavy fog or torrential rain, and ONLY at very low speeds, save your money. Fog lamps are not "driving lights" (auxiliary high beams), nor are they auxiliary low beams.
Also, the two quickest, cheapest ways of helping yourself see better when driving at night: Make sure your windshield is clean (inside and out) and dim your dashboard lights.
A few threads worth reading on the subject of fog lamps:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...How-many-of-you-actually-NEED-your-fog-lights
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?401875-Discussion-Are-fog-lights-really-worth-it
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...Re-Driving-with-fog-lights-when-theres-no-fog
In a word, "no". Fog lamps are basically useless (at best) most of the time for most drivers, and even the very best fog lamps should be turned off nearly all the time. The situation you describe (general in-town driving) is not a situation that calls for fog lamps. Alaric has linked some good threads to read; this is another worthwhile read on the subject.
You'd do better to put your effort into making the headlamps work as well as they possibly can. That will entail making sure you have genuine Toyota headlamp assemblies (the aftermarket units are all junk) in perfect condition (no lens haze), equipped with the best possible bulbs of the correct type -- halogen, not an "HID kit" or an "LED kit" -- and aimed correctly, preferably with an optical headlamp aiming machine properly used.
In an '04 Camry with legitimate headlamps in perfect condition, the bulbs you'll want are these for the low beams and these for the high beams, trimmed as per this diagram.
You'd do better to put your effort into making the headlamps work as well as they possibly can. That will entail making sure you have genuine Toyota headlamp assemblies (the aftermarket units are all junk) in perfect condition (no lens haze), equipped with the best possible bulbs of the correct type -- halogen, not an "HID kit" or an "LED kit" -- and aimed correctly, preferably with an optical headlamp aiming machine properly used.
In an '04 Camry with legitimate headlamps in perfect condition, the bulbs you'll want are these for the low beams and these for the high beams, trimmed as per this diagram.
rishabharies
Newly Enlightened
- Joined
- Jan 18, 2015
- Messages
- 60
As a mechanic up here in Toronto, Canada working at a Lexus dealership, i can tell you that vehicles fitted with "fog" lamps aren't exactly fog lamps. They are additional driving light. We do not get much fog in North America and hence these lamps are usually combined with the headlamps to come on at the same time. Fog lamps should be independent lamps that can be turned on to see the lane markings during heavy fog without having to turn on headlamps which reflect the low beam headlamps back into the driver's eyes in fog.
Adding more lights will make you see better, but blind oncoming traffic. Just like people sticking hid kits to their vehicle which was not designed for it. I tried them, got high beamed by a few motorists, and i removed them. Tried the led kit, couldn't see the light bounce off the wall in my drive way and i took them out. Just stick with the lights you have and ensure your lens is clean.
Adding more lights will make you see better, but blind oncoming traffic. Just like people sticking hid kits to their vehicle which was not designed for it. I tried them, got high beamed by a few motorists, and i removed them. Tried the led kit, couldn't see the light bounce off the wall in my drive way and i took them out. Just stick with the lights you have and ensure your lens is clean.
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
As someone who understands vehicle lighting, I can tell you that fog lamps are fog lamps. They are not (as stated already in post #2 of this thread) "additional driving light".
Do I think there are, sometimes, times that using fog lamps without headlamps may be of benefit? Yes, and no. At that level of fog, just quit moving and hope your rear fog lamp (or your hazard lights, since you're pulled over and stopped) keep you from getting hit from behind.
Correct.
Last edited:
That is not correct. Fog lamps are fog lamps. They may be good fog lamps or they may be useless cosmetic toys, but they are not driving lamps. Driving lamps are completely different. They are auxiliary high beams. They may be good ones or useless cosmetic toys, but that's what they are. These are not arbitrary terms; we do not get to just decide "Well, that's not really a fog lamp, it's more of an additional driving light", just like we do not get to just decide "Well, that's not really a brake light, it's more of an additional tail light" or "Well, that's not really a brake pad, it's more of an additional PCV valve".
Also not correct. Some parts of North America do get substantial fog. Some places in North America are famous for their fog.
Also not correct. Fog lamps (factory-installed ones, anyway) are never just hooked into the headlamp circuit. They always have their own switch. In most cases that switch can be left on so the fog lamps light up whenever the headlamps are turned on, which is unfortunate, but that's not quite the same thing as what you said.
At extremely low road speeds, yes. Of course, that depends on the fog lamps being adequate to do that job. It takes a very robust fog light beam to do that job, and most fog lamps are nowhere close to adequate for it. Most of them are purely cosmetic.
Not necessarily. Using fog lamps in clear weather only makes it feel like you can see better. In fact, it actually worsens your ability to see by overlighting the foreground.
Yes, fog lamps are often glaring even when they are aimed correctly, because they tend to be small and therefore have high luminance.
That is good advice.
Hilldweller
Enlightened
Good thread.
I get lots of fog.
I travel on twisty/hilly roads early in the morning, dirt, with no artificial light. The roads cross streams and meander through "gentleman's farms". Some have 15mph speed limits.
That's why I have good foglights.
But, when I get to town, they're already turned off. 'Cause I have good headlights too....
I get lots of fog.
I travel on twisty/hilly roads early in the morning, dirt, with no artificial light. The roads cross streams and meander through "gentleman's farms". Some have 15mph speed limits.
That's why I have good foglights.
But, when I get to town, they're already turned off. 'Cause I have good headlights too....
In fog, fog lights do help.
Otherwise, they add foreground light that reduces your overall night vision.
I live in NJ (Its in North America). We get tremendously thick fog at times, and, frankly, even fog lights have a point of diminishing return, and you just pull over and wait if its too thick...as opposed to driving at 1 mph, etc.
When the fog is light enough so that a fog light makes enough difference to be worth it, you are still not going full speed, as your line of sight is now so short (Within the fog light's beam) that to be able to stop in time, you just can't go that fast anyway.
Otherwise, they add foreground light that reduces your overall night vision.
I live in NJ (Its in North America). We get tremendously thick fog at times, and, frankly, even fog lights have a point of diminishing return, and you just pull over and wait if its too thick...as opposed to driving at 1 mph, etc.
When the fog is light enough so that a fog light makes enough difference to be worth it, you are still not going full speed, as your line of sight is now so short (Within the fog light's beam) that to be able to stop in time, you just can't go that fast anyway.
127.0.0.1
Flashlight Enthusiast
depends on make/model/version of vehicle if they are useful or not
many are cosmetic in that the light provided is aimed poorly or too feeble to matter
many are cosmetic in that the light provided is aimed poorly or too feeble to matter
Last edited by a moderator:
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
And whether useful as fog lamps or not, they are never useful as non-fog lamps. They should not be except in very specific conditions (their name, obviously, hints at that). They are NOT clear weather lamps.
Which is why it's usually best to leave them off always-- and if one is using them in fog, don't get one's hopes up (and SLOW DOWN).
Last edited:
I am going to disagree with a lot of you. Before anyone can answer this question you have to look at the individual vehicle involved and the person driving it. Poorly designed and manufactured fog lamps provide poor lighting and a lot of glare. Some Ford F150 trucks have fog lamps like that. Fog lights, when properly designed, manufactured, and aimed, do NOT blind oncoming drivers. They have a very low cut off point that keep the light on the ground essentially shining no higher than the lamp assembly height itself. While designed for use in fog the wide flat beam they provide can be useful in the rain / on wet roads and yes, even in city driving. Lane markings, curbs, debris in the roadway all can be more easily seen and identified. True yellow / amber fogs lamps can provide enhanced contrast and thus be useful during snowfall / on snowy roadways. White fog lamps are not as effective in my opinion, and HID / blue tinted fog lamps do affect other drivers because ot the way that the blue light scatters, just as HID headlamps do.
Fog lights can also make up for poorly designed headlamps. Many of today's manufacturers place style ahead of function. While the headlamps may meet the minimum federal requirements they may still be poor in comparison to headlamps designed for functionality rather than style.
The use of fog lamps can also be an aid to drivers who are perfectly capable of night driving and who are legally licensed but have some vision impairments. Again....Well designed, well manufactured, and properly aimed fog lamps will not bother oncoming drivers, so no harm/ no foul. And please folks.....Use bulbs of the wattage and design the manufacturer specifies. Few if any of us are properly qualified to make changes to these lights.....
Fog lights can also make up for poorly designed headlamps. Many of today's manufacturers place style ahead of function. While the headlamps may meet the minimum federal requirements they may still be poor in comparison to headlamps designed for functionality rather than style.
The use of fog lamps can also be an aid to drivers who are perfectly capable of night driving and who are legally licensed but have some vision impairments. Again....Well designed, well manufactured, and properly aimed fog lamps will not bother oncoming drivers, so no harm/ no foul. And please folks.....Use bulbs of the wattage and design the manufacturer specifies. Few if any of us are properly qualified to make changes to these lights.....
Not really, no. Fog lamps are essentially, basically, objectively useless for most drivers in most conditions. This is not a matter of opinion or guess or stacked-up assumptions. Driving conditions exist where fog lamps can be potentially useful, but they are very uncommon -- and even where those conditions exist, most drivers cancel out the potential benefit of fog lamps by driving too fast.
That is true.
That generalization can't be supported by reality, even with the wiggle-room you've afforded yourself by saying "blind" rather than "glare".
However, they tend to be small, which means they have very high luminance, which makes them glaring. It is an error to think that a lamp can be glaring only to those whose eyes intersect the actual beam coming from the lamp.
In heavy rain, fog, snow, dust, and smoke, yes...at extremely low vehicle speeds only.
Wet roads are a vexing challenge. Because they are more specular than dry roads, they seem to "eat up" the light from the driver's headlamps. It doesn't actually get eaten, it actually reflects at an angle equal and opposite to the angle of incidence. That means oncoming drivers get that light in the form of reflected glare. Turning on the fog lamps can marginally improve the driver's ability to see the road, but it adds more reflected glare to other drivers. At best, this is a safety zero-sum.
No, it just feels like they help in city driving.
There is no such thing as a "true yellow/amber fog lamp", that is a persistent myth. Fog lamps are defined by the beam pattern, not the light color. Amber is not an appropriate color for fog lamps. There is some evidence that selective yellow fog lamps do work better than white ones, but the effect is small relative to that of the beam pattern characteristics.
No, this is another myth. Blue-light scatter is called Rayleigh Scattering. It's why the sky is blue, but it only occurs when the diffracting particles and droplets are smaller than the light wavelength. That happens up in the sky, but not down at roadway level. Blue light is, however, difficult for our visual system to process.
No, they cannot. That's simply not correct.
Actually, the average performance of headlamps has been steadily increasing for years. Sure, there have been some vehicles with very poor headlamp performance (many Chrysler cars of the 1990s, for example) but in general today's headlamps are at least as good as the best headlamps of years past. That's the objective reality. Subjective perception is often different, because what inspires subjective assessment of a headlamp as "good" or "bad" differs from what makes a headlamp's objective safety performance good or bad.
This is in the realm of possibility, but the number of cases in which it is actually true is very small (vs. just feeling like it's true).
That simply is not correct, no matter how many times you say "again".
That's good advice.
Last edited by a moderator:
alpg88
Flashlight Enthusiast
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2005
- Messages
- 5,339
my 2016 sonata does not even offer fogs in usa. in any trim.
Yet there are times and drivers that are helped by fog lights. Fog lights on wet roads do improve seeing at distance. Michael Flannagan (the same fella Dan Stern likes to quote) tells us that wet pavement together with lights that give higher foreground increases seeing distance.
The best research shows that high foreground illumination for the most part is not helpful. But, also shows that some persons and drivers in some road conditions are actually helped by high foreground illumination. Even for those that are not helped by high foreground illumination it does not have strong negative effects, is probably not a major problem for drivers and the effects appear to be relatively small. This is documented in the paper: Foreground Illumination from Headlamps, Effects on Visual Performance and Preference, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, J.D. Bullough N.P. Skinner 2007.
This paper states, "In summary, high light levels in the foreground are desirable by drivers, but there is no evidence that they serve any beneficial purpose in terms of visibility or any safety metrics. If anything, the might possibly detract from forward visibility further ahead, but the effects appear to be relatively small. This result is consistent with the findings of Flannagan et al. (1995.)"
The 1995 study referred to above is a University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute paper by Michael J Flannagan, Michael Sivak, Eric C. Traube and Masami Aoki. Their findings state "Thus, while high foreground illumination does not improve seeing ability (except perhaps for minor effects with younger drivers or wet pavement), at least it does not have strong negative effects."
This paper documents that the testing used foreground lighting that was quite strong. But even with this "rather strong manipulation the effects on seeing distance were small."
They further found, "High foreground luminance resulted in shorter seeing distances for older people and longer seeing distances for younger people. High foreground luminance also resulted in shorter seeing distances with dry pavement and longer seeing distances with wet pavement. However, all of the effects of foreground luminance were small, suggesting that although high foreground luminance does decrease seeing distances under some conditions, it is probably not a major problem for drivers."
As others have mentioned, there is still the issue of glare to other drivers.
The best research shows that high foreground illumination for the most part is not helpful. But, also shows that some persons and drivers in some road conditions are actually helped by high foreground illumination. Even for those that are not helped by high foreground illumination it does not have strong negative effects, is probably not a major problem for drivers and the effects appear to be relatively small. This is documented in the paper: Foreground Illumination from Headlamps, Effects on Visual Performance and Preference, Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, J.D. Bullough N.P. Skinner 2007.
This paper states, "In summary, high light levels in the foreground are desirable by drivers, but there is no evidence that they serve any beneficial purpose in terms of visibility or any safety metrics. If anything, the might possibly detract from forward visibility further ahead, but the effects appear to be relatively small. This result is consistent with the findings of Flannagan et al. (1995.)"
The 1995 study referred to above is a University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute paper by Michael J Flannagan, Michael Sivak, Eric C. Traube and Masami Aoki. Their findings state "Thus, while high foreground illumination does not improve seeing ability (except perhaps for minor effects with younger drivers or wet pavement), at least it does not have strong negative effects."
This paper documents that the testing used foreground lighting that was quite strong. But even with this "rather strong manipulation the effects on seeing distance were small."
They further found, "High foreground luminance resulted in shorter seeing distances for older people and longer seeing distances for younger people. High foreground luminance also resulted in shorter seeing distances with dry pavement and longer seeing distances with wet pavement. However, all of the effects of foreground luminance were small, suggesting that although high foreground luminance does decrease seeing distances under some conditions, it is probably not a major problem for drivers."
As others have mentioned, there is still the issue of glare to other drivers.
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
This happens quite often, and is happening here, but not for the reason you think.
No, you don't.
Yes.
Actually, they can and do present glare-- even very well-designed ones can do that.
In heavy, active rain. Not so much on a wet road when it's not raining, since it causes specular glare for others. Wet roads are definitely problematic; they often make it look like the headlamps are ineffective because the road itself doesn't reflect light back to us (it's a specular surface, so the ol' "angle of incidence = angle of reflection" applies). For the *things* in the road-- those are still visible. (It's another one of those things where our subjective impression of our ability to see has a huge basis in the foreground light.) On the other hand, traffic forward of the car gets another dose of glare, whether through their windshield if they're facing that car, or through the rear window (and in the mirrors) if moving in the same direction.
Right before the moment of impact, if fog lamps are being treated like some kind of "normal speed auxiliary lamp".
Pattern, not color, defines a good fog lamp. For any compliant fog lamp, switching from white to selective yellow may confer some additional benefit, but the way "blue light scatters" is not at all germane to the discussion. Blue light does tend to focus in front of the retina, and our optical systems are just not as good at processing blue in general, but the same scattering of blue light that makes our sky look blue is not at all related to local light sources and fog.
In clear weather: No.
At clear-weather speeds? No.
Remember: Fog lamps are fog lamps, not auxiliary low beams.
Actually, headlamps are really getting better all the time (there are some outliers, of course, and I'm reminded of certain GM pickups and many Chryslers). And there are many cases where the objective performance of headlamps have improved while reducing the subjective impression of performance.
The number of people this would be true for is asymptotic to zero.
Again, still untrue.
Good advice.
Yes.
Last edited:
Alaric Darconville
Flashlight Enthusiast
Which could be just as well-- but it's surprising, since that's one way to ply more money from a car buyer's wallet.
1st post here and hello to all ..
In defense of fog lights, i have lot's of driving experience in all kinds of adverse weather including fog as thick as pea soup up in the mountains of Richmond Virginia and many other places all over the country and fog lights do help but what matters is having the light mounted low enough so it shines under the fog, the other thing that matters is having the top of the beam chopped off so it's flat and doesn't shine up into the fog and reflect back at you..
Color, use any color you want as long as it clear and white..
Once you've used properly designed fog lights and mounted them low enough and aimed them correctly (slightly downward) you will see the light (pun intended)..
You're not supposed to be driving fast in the fog and fog gives the illusion of going slower than you actually are..
The problem with mounting fog light low enough to work is forgetting they are there as you pull into a parking spot and hear the crunching sound as you pull against the curb, oops..
The #1 mistake people make when using fog lights is: Leaving the headlights turned on..
Turn the head lights off so they are not reflecting back into the windshield.
11 yrs on the road as a professional driver and learned much in my travels..
Cheers..
In defense of fog lights, i have lot's of driving experience in all kinds of adverse weather including fog as thick as pea soup up in the mountains of Richmond Virginia and many other places all over the country and fog lights do help but what matters is having the light mounted low enough so it shines under the fog, the other thing that matters is having the top of the beam chopped off so it's flat and doesn't shine up into the fog and reflect back at you..
Color, use any color you want as long as it clear and white..
Once you've used properly designed fog lights and mounted them low enough and aimed them correctly (slightly downward) you will see the light (pun intended)..
You're not supposed to be driving fast in the fog and fog gives the illusion of going slower than you actually are..
The problem with mounting fog light low enough to work is forgetting they are there as you pull into a parking spot and hear the crunching sound as you pull against the curb, oops..
The #1 mistake people make when using fog lights is: Leaving the headlights turned on..
Turn the head lights off so they are not reflecting back into the windshield.
11 yrs on the road as a professional driver and learned much in my travels..
Cheers..
Hi, welcome to the forum.
This doesn't contradict the advice already given: fog lamps are for use in very poor weather conditions so you can see the road edge line to crawl your way along, very slowly.
Not correct. Fog lamps can emit white or selective-yellow light, and there's evidence that selective-yellow is better. See link in post #12 of this thread.
That's true. And "not fast" really means NOT FAST, it doesn't just mean "well, the speed limit's 55, so I'll hold it to 50 or so".
In many places it is not legal to use front fog lamps without low beam headlamps. And a giant majority of front fog lamps are not capable (in terms of output) to be the vehicle's only front lights, even at very low speeds.
As someone who has experience in fog, mist, rain, smoke, dust, and snow, IMO fog lights serve only 1 purpose more than 99% of the time: They make a profit for somebody. Most people I know with fog lights on their car would also buy a pet rock.
Almost never seen a good set of fogs on a car. Even less often have I seen them properly installed, aimed, or used.
If you have to get some, talk to folks in the rally community and ask about a light supplier who works with a rally crowd. Rallyists are about the only folks I know who tend to have both a real world understanding and the research to back it up.
Almost never seen a good set of fogs on a car. Even less often have I seen them properly installed, aimed, or used.
If you have to get some, talk to folks in the rally community and ask about a light supplier who works with a rally crowd. Rallyists are about the only folks I know who tend to have both a real world understanding and the research to back it up.
- Status
