Side marker + turn signal repeater?

My Celica has an amber(orange?) front side marker that's pretty well on the side of the bumper, the front turn signals are on the inside bottom corner of the head lamps (masked in this photo during detailing, second older photo for overall view). I feel like that there's very little indication that I'm indicating on the side of the car, and being black it isn't the most visible car at dusk/dawn.




If I could wire that bulb to repeat the turn signal but otherwise retain side marker function (light solid when not signaling, flash when signaling), would that be OK or would I be violating something?

Front side markers are permitted to flash as turn signals as long as they also remain functional as side markers. See this page for two ways to do what you're asking about. Which way to do it depends on whether you're OK with having the front side marker flash in inverse-phase with the front and rear turn signals when the park/tail/headlamps are lit. They'll flash in phase with the front/rear when the park/tail/headlamps aren't lit, but if you want them to flash in phase whether the park/tail/headlamps are lit or not, you need a control module. It's all explained at the linked page. You'll also want to upgrade the bulbs in the front side markers so your newly-activated side turn signal repeater is visible in daylight, not just after dark. Use a 3652 or (preferably) a 2886X bulb for that upgrade.

Thank you.

It just dawned on me that I have seen cars with flashing side markers from the factory but they were always on the headlamp assembly so it just never occurred to me...boy I feel silly for asking this now!

-Virgil- said:

Which way to do it depends on whether you're OK with having the front side marker flash in inverse-phase with the front and rear turn signals when the park/tail/headlamps are lit.

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I like the opposite-phase myself when the lamps are lit, which is based on my belief (unfounded by any *data* that I know of) that it's more attention-getting without being distracting or confusing the message. None of my vehicles qualify, but I have a friend with a '99 RX300 that I'm going to help him with (fine, I'll do it all myself) doing the markerflash mod on.

Funny you mention the 2886X and/or 3652. In Stillwater, the 2886X was impossible to find. We settled for the 3652LL by Sylvania, one package of which had stickers applied over the finished good saying "Made in Japan" over the original country of origin section. Another pair said "Made in China or Japan" directly on the card. The filaments are markedly different, too.
Curved filament for the "Made in Japan or China"
Sharply angled for the "Made in Japan"

We'd have gotten two cards of the "MiJ" ones, but there was only that one. Those will go in the front lamps for the markerflash function.

Alaric Darconville said:

I like the opposite-phase myself when the lamps are lit, which is based on my belief (unfounded by any *data* that I know of) that it's more attention-getting without being distracting or confusing the message.

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That kind of depends on the arrangement of the lamps on the vehicle. If there's a big separation distance between the turn signal and the side marker, and a limited range of angles where both lamps can be seen at the same time, there's really nothing wrong with the inverse-phase flashing of the front side marker. The situation is different when the side marker is right next to the front turn signal, the side marker and the turn signal are co-visible through a large range of angles, and/or the side marker also provides the vehicle's front position ("parking") lamp function. In those cases, inverse-phase flashing can degrades the clarity of the turn signal. The Europeans take a hard line on this, inverse-phase flashing is not allowed at all. If the side marker is going to flash with the turn signal, it must flash in phase. That might be a little unrealistically doctrinaire, but if it has to be one way or the other, then they are probably correct to say "in phase only".

-Virgil- said:

That kind of depends on the arrangement of the lamps on the vehicle. If there's a big separation distance between the turn signal and the side marker, and a limited range of angles where both lamps can be seen at the same time, there's really nothing wrong with the inverse-phase flashing of the front side marker.

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There is quite a bit of separation between the two lamps. The front turn signals are inboard of the fog lamps, directly underneath the high beam lamps. Front position lamps are up high, outboard of the low beams and are white. The front turn signal has no position lamp function.

I've see the filament difference with other T10 bulbs as well and noticed that those with multiple filament supports glow more dimly but last longer than those with none. I believe the supports wick heat away from the filament, no filament support seems to let the hot filament flop around some if you hit a hard bump when the light is lit. One support seems a good balance but the two support bulbs are very dim. We used to stock two support 194, now have cheap Eiko no filament support bulbs. I'm not impressed, they seem to burn out at a faster rate but inventory purchases aren't part of my job. I just diagnose and repair.

The 2886x are fantastic bulbs, very bright and very long life. I've already been using them in the car for a number of years. I couldn't find any local stock so I bought them from store.candlepower.com.

Bitter said:

The 2886x are fantastic bulbs, very bright and very long life. I've already been using them in the car for a number of years. I couldn't find any local stock so I bought them from store.candlepower.com.

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As long as we've put off our RX300 project, I could've ordered the 2886X and had them arrive, and STILL be staring at them for weeks waiting for a change to get the thing done. Maybe THIS is the week we get it done.

I see CandlePowerInc has given to using "stage 1", "stage 2", and "whiter light" descriptions for certain bulb upgrades (for example, the Osram MiniXen 2886X is the "stage 2"). When they had a certain technical person there they'd not have been allowed to. I guess they did it to entice the tuner crowd or something, because as everyone should know: White light is white-- no white light is whiter than any other white light.

Yes, their offerings are good but the advertising is a little....yea. The prices are good and shipping swift though, I've been a customer for years.

Project done, came out nicely. Thanks fellas!

-Virgil- said:

Front side markers are permitted to flash as turn signals as long as they also remain functional as side markers. See http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/markerflash/markerflash.html for two ways to do what you're asking about.

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I've tried the "floating ground" method mentioned on Daniel Stern's site but have also used a "trailer light converter" module which combined separate turn signal/brake light bulbs circuits on a vehicle to a combined turn and brake light on a trailer. In my application, I connected the "brake" input (red wire) to the parking light circuit and the "turn" inputs to their respective front right and left turn signal circuits then ran the outputs to the respective side markers. Find a good ground for the white wire and ignore the brown wire. The unit I used (Hopkins 48895) does flash inverse-phase from the rest of the turn signals when the parking lights are on but I see many GM trucks and suvs that do the same thing.

yuandrew said:

I've tried the "floating ground" method mentioned on Daniel Stern's site but have also used a "trailer light converter" module (...) The unit I used (Hopkins 48895) does flash inverse-phase from the rest of the turn signals when the parking lights are on

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I can understand using a DRL-1 module as linked in post #2 of this thread if you want the side markers to flash in phase at all times (parking lights on or parking lights off), but why would you buy and hook up a variety of wires on a trailer light module to achieve exactly the same result as just moving one wire on each side of the car without any module at all?

why would you buy and hook up a variety of wires on a trailer light module to achieve exactly the same result as just moving one wire on each side of the car without any module at all?

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I did that to work with LED marker lamps (note that in the "floating ground" method, current flows either way through the bulb's filament depending on function)

yuandrew said:

I did that to work with LED marker lamps (note that in the "floating ground" method, current flows either way through the bulb's filament depending on function)

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The Diode Dynamics Tail as Turn module will do exactly what you want for LED lamps but with only 3 wires. White output to side marker, red side marker input from car side of harness, and yellow turn signal input. It'll flash the LED side marker out of phase with lights on, in phase with lights off, and still light the marker normally with the rest of the lamps. The downside is the module as it comes from DD is NOT weather tight at all, it has to be made weather tight if it's installed anywhere on the outside of the vehicle, good news is that's an easy fix with some burial grade 3:1 heat shrink and some snips of hot melt glue inside the heat shrink to add extra glue to cover the board and come out the ends to make a better seal. When done right it should be impervious even if submerged, probably come away better than any other parts of your car after being submerged!

Bitter said:

The Diode Dynamics Tail as Turn module will do exactly what you want for LED lamps but with only 3 wires.

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That's a better use than their proposed use. Silly to disable the separate amber turn signals.

I agree!

Using the DRL-1 module to enable the "markerflash" function won't make the sidemarkers light the entire time.

Flashing the rear sidemarker with the turn signals is permitted (see here), but is not a good idea. If your rear turn signal and rear sidemarker are different colors (such as a car in the U.S. or Canada having amber rear turn signals), then it may introduce a sort of "Christmas tree effect".

Just did a friend's Tacoma earlier today using my trailer light converter module method.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tc-0TvYPqs0

The camera was steadier in Cloverfield.

yuandrew said:

Just did a friend's Tacoma earlier today using my trailer light converter module method.

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I'm afraid that wasn't a clever idea. For one thing, if you're going to make the side markers flash with the turn signals, and the side markers also provide the vehicle's front position lamp ("parking light") function, they need to be amber from all viewing angles, including the front. That Tacoma appears to still have its original white bulbs. They need to be swapped out for amber ones -- type WY5W, like Sylvania #2827. In the second place, that vehicle should have synchronous-flashing side markers, not opposite-flashing like you've set up. An alternating-flash setup is unwise on vehicles with combination side marker/front position lights, because now from the front you have a wig-wag effect rather than an on/off or bright/dim effect; the turn signal is now ambiguous and unclear. In the third place, those trailer light converter modules are notoriously unreliable and really aren't the right device for the job; to do it right you want to use a module such as described here.