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Thread: Haiku Build - However which options??

  1. #1

    Default Haiku Build - However which options??

    Hello,


    I torn between a HDS Rotary or a Haiku as my next light, currently I trending towards the Haiku.


    There appear to be a large number of options which I'm finding confusing, could you guys give me a little advice and steer.


    I'd like the Haiku with a single CR123 rechargeable (any advice on which cell to go for?), however am stuck on emitter and converter.


    I have a few XM-L lights already and am now interested in a Hi Cri light, however would still like as much throw output as possible so I keep coming back to the XM-L2, then ponder over the XPG2.


    Does anyone know what the outputs are for Low/Medium/High with the different emitters available? Ideally I'd like Low to be Low and High to be as High as possible/useable.


    I like the idea of programmable, however in reality how useful is this and how many people use it. I'm leaning towards the simple 3 stage output converter, however the programable option is interesting even if it is rarely used.


    Is there a sweet spot in the options for a Haiku build where everything comes together perfectly?


    Thanks,
    Alan

  2. #2
    Flashaholic ironhorse's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    I have the mule rather than the Haiku, but the programmable converter was hat pushed me over the edge to order. The ability to set the output levels to exactly what I want plus the ability to have it step down in output as the rechargeable battery drains made it a great light for me.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Hi Alan,

    The HDS lights are great (I have three clickies) but the Haiku is the king of lights in my opinion (I also have three Haiku, a Mule and a Sundrop).
    I've got a few different emitters, drivers and bodies but in my opinion (if you're keen on the 123 body) the best set up is a Haiku 119(V) HiCRI, 3S with a 123 pak. I actually think the 3S is a better driver than the Hive (I can elaborate if need be).
    As far as rechargeable batteries go I'd recommend the K2 Energy 3V LFP batteries as they perform great and are the closest size to a CR123 (I've tried many including AW).
    I could throw some numbers at you but with a light like a Haiku the numbers don't tell the full story. I can tell you however that plenty of light comes out of the set up listed above, great tint and colour rendition with plenty of throw with decent spill. The reflectors in these lights are as much a work of art as the design of the body itself.
    Very useful light indeed.
    Don has absolutely nailed the design of these lights. I've spent too much money on all sorts of lights but the Haiku is the most useful all round light there is, also looks great and is tough as nails.
    Last edited by F89; 03-08-2016 at 06:51 AM.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Having owned multiple HDS and Haikus over the years I supposed it depends on what you want to get out of the light. With the HiveLD-S driver you narrow the playing field in terms of versatility between the lights as you are not limited by the 3S levels, but the programming and operation of the HDS lights still give you some more options and a lower-low. Also, the HDS is a little more versatile in terms of operation while the light is on as the switch is a momentary and you never have to fully turn the light off to change levels. If you go for the Rotary version you also get the infinite UI option which is what I use most of the time.

    In terms of max brightness I think you will get about the same from both lights.

    In terms of the beam I would put the edge to the HDS slightly. The Haiku has a deeper reflector which lends itself to a tighter spot with less corona the rest flood. The HDS has a little bit more transition between spot to corona to flood.

    In terms of LED selection, both brands seem to have a good variety to choose from. I'd give the edge to HDS here with a slightly more current selection of LEDs.

    In terms of size and clips I think the Haiku wins here. The Haiku is slightly slimmer and Don's clip is pretty much legendary. There are some nice clip options for the HDS but they always appear to be an afterthought.

    Finish is personal preference. Do you want a Ti light or a black HA light?

    In terms of aftermarket upgrades the Haiku wins. The light's design is more modular which gives you better options to change the Light Engine with another one from Don or even from CPF members like datiLED who makes some great custom LEs as well.

    Cost is about the same for both lights so you're looking in the $400 range regardless.

    I imagine you are leaning towards the Haiku as you did post this in Don's sub-forum. Best of luck with you're decision.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    SOYCD has made some good points here so I'll elaborate on a few of my own HDS vs Haiku thoughts.
    Regarding programming customisation the HDS is untouchable, the Hive can't get close to it. Also the Hive struggles to achieve at low output, too low and you get strong PWM but then if you go to approximately 3S low you get a kind of flickering and unstable light which is hard to describe any better and most may not notice but I do. The HDS can go from a glowing emitter to flat out with flawless operation.
    Don't choose a Hive for a low low basically.
    Beam wise it depends what you value most. The HDS is quite floody so probably more comparable to a Haiku XML but even a 119 Haiku with a 3S will easily out throw a HDS while an XPG2 Haiku will well and truly leave a HDS for dead in throw.
    Overall I feel the Haiku XPG/119 reflector is a better all round reflector than a HDS.
    A HDS feels great in the hand and the handling is as good as it gets for a small light, most seem to prefer the rotary but I have a strong preference for the clicky.
    A Haiku is a solid chunk of titanium, tough as nails.
    Plenty more to add but there's a fair bit of info to take on.
    HDS are in their own class no doubt but I have to say that the Haiku is just something all together special.
    Last edited by F89; 03-08-2016 at 07:32 AM.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* jumpstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    SOYCD has made some good points here so I'll elaborate on a few of my own HDS vs Haiku thoughts.
    Regarding programming customisation the HDS is untouchable, the Hive can't get close to it. Also the Hive struggles to achieve at low output, too low and you get strong PWM but then if you go to approximately 3S low you get a kind of flickering and unstable light which is hard to describe any better and most may not notice but I do. The HDS can go from a glowing emitter to flat out with flawless operation.
    Don't choose a Hive for a low low basically.
    Beam wise it depends what you value most. The HDS is quite floody so probably more comparable to a Haiku XML but even a 119 Haiku with a 3S will easily out throw a HDS while an XPG2 Haiku will well and truly leave a HDS for dead in throw.
    Overall I feel the Haiku XPG/119 reflector is a better all round reflector than a HDS.
    A HDS feels great in the hand and the handling is as good as it gets for a small light, most seem to prefer the rotary but I have a strong preference for the clicky.
    A Haiku is a solid chunk of titanium, tough as nails.
    Plenty more to add but there's a fair bit of info to take on.
    HDS are in their own class no doubt but I have to say that the Haiku is just something all together special.
    If compared with the Low of a PDS, and using Hive, would there be PWM flickering? Reason I asked is that I am thinking of getting a second Haiku but with a Hive driver as the 3S XPg's Low is kind of brighter than a PDS. Thanks in advance.
    SF E1L McGizmo HA PD-S Ti Mule-PD BB Haiku-XP-G Inova X1
    CRK 21L Umnumzaan Strider SmF ZT0560BK SPY PM2 BM 556 551-1302 ​LSTEEL HEAT HEFT4

  7. #7

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by jumpstat View Post
    If compared with the Low of a PDS, and using Hive, would there be PWM flickering? Reason I asked is that I am thinking of getting a second Haiku but with a Hive driver as the 3S XPg's Low is kind of brighter than a PDS. Thanks in advance.
    The Hive can go quite low but you'll get really choppy PWM. From memory you can get rid of PWM at around 12mA but then you get what I can best describe as an unstable output whereby it flickers mildly here and there which is very noticeable when tail standing.
    I tried to rid this flickering by going even higher but it still displayed the symptom at around the low of the 3S (approx. 25mA) and I didn't want my low much higher so I just deal with it.
    My opinion on the Hive is that, for my use anyway, it would be better served in a Makai at 1 or 1.2A with a 2x123 pak (which I don't have) running on a Keeppower 16650. For a Haiku I think 6 or 700mA is an optimum high unless of course you're using the above mentioned pak and battery or don't mind keeping extra batteries at hand if using a 123 pak.

  8. #8
    Str8stroke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    First Alan, welcome to the forum!!!
    Like others above who have mentioned some great info, I own a few of each too. You smartly picked two killer lights. I won't get technical in my answer/opinion since I don't know your flashlight skill level. Also others may read this and could benefit from a layman answer. I won't get into tints and leds. I will let others do that.

    If I had to pick just one of these two lights, it would be hard for me to do too. They are both excellent options. I guess at the end of the the day, the lure of Titanium & superior pocket clip design would be what pushes me over the edge. So if you don't want to read my garble: I vote Haiku!

    Haiku IF:
    you want people to comment on your light when the see it.
    you want "the metal of Gods" <Yeah I made that up lol
    you want a super grippy feeling light
    you want a light you can change the look of later by: polish, bead blast, or anodize
    you want a light with a SUPERIOR pocket clip with 1/4 inch mounting options
    you have always dreamed of scuba diving in HI.
    you don't mind worshiping a man named McGizmo
    you want to be able to easily upgrade the led or driver down the road as technology changes
    you want to change the rear button colors later

    HDS Rotary IF:
    you want a superior UI (User Interface) with the rotary design
    you want the smoothest feeling rotary design in the world
    you want infinite control of output (the lowest low)
    you want a little more throw beam profile
    you don't want to mess with having to program a light
    you don't mind a few scratches in the HA finish down the road
    you are ok using a holster or a ugly pocket clip (sorry just the truth)
    you are ok with a light that can roll when you set it down if you don't have a clip
    you are ok with the flush button so it can tail stand
    you want a light that looks like a regular light when you are using it (less likely to be stolen or you want to draw less attention?)
    you want to be able to change the bezel look down the road

    I could go on, but I think you have enough info to digest. Your lowest low & best throw will lean you towards the HDS. However, If I were to only own just one light, I would be 100% satisfied with either. I will say, even with the HDS clip "issue" on the Rotary, I still prefer the Rotary over the HDS clickie. I actually often use the same holster for both my HDS and Haiku. I run a HOGO holster. The main reason is sometimes I have a knife clipped to one pocket and a pen the the other. So a holster works very well at those times. Plus if you are sitting down, like in the movies, a cross draw of the holster light is easier.
    Hey I got a idea:
    Get them both! lol
    Last edited by Str8stroke; 03-09-2016 at 06:02 AM.
    Interested in Saltytri lights. Pm me!


  9. #9

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Regarding throw I think the above post is incorrect. A Haiku (with an XPG/119 reflector) will easily out throw a HDS.
    Example: My AA 119V Haiku out throws my HDS 170N and that's 300mA vs approx. 1A with similar LEDs, so at about a third the power it still concentrates a brighter spot but with less overall output. While my 3S (660mA) 119V Haiku very clearly out throws it and my Haiku with a 700mA XPG2 blows it away and the majority of other small CR123 based lights (eg. Surefure E1D LED).
    SOYCD gives a pretty good description of the Haiku (XPG reflector) and HDS. The HDS has a nice smooth transition of beam which works really well on short to medium distances while the Haiku has a more pronounced and intense hotspot with nice spill.
    Both nice beams with different balances.
    Last edited by F89; 03-09-2016 at 05:05 PM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Any Haiku with XP-L or XM-L2? With hive what is max current you can set?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Any Haiku with XP-L or XM-L2? With hive what is max current you can set?
    I built a LE with an XPL but didn't like it, then dedomed it and didn't like it so I turned it into a 660nm red XPE.
    Max current on the Hive is 1.2A using a liion.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    I built a LE with an XPL but didn't like it, then dedomed it and didn't like it so I turned it into a 660nm red XPE.
    Max current on the Hive is 1.2A using a liion.
    Should have tried a XP-L HI. It's a great looking LED in the light and equivalent beam pattern to a XP-G2. Although - if you aren't driving it any higher than the stock XP-G2 would be driven there is no need for the mod. But if you are going up to ~3 Amps it's another story.

  13. #13
    Str8stroke's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    F89: I think we will have different opinions. I have had several different leds in my McGizmos, I don't recall any of them throwing further than my HDS. Hopefully others will chime in.

    In the meantime, pictures are better anyways. Yes I know Nichia vs XPL isn't apples to apples.

    Haiku: Running DatiLed Nichia.


    HDS: 4K XPL
    Interested in Saltytri lights. Pm me!


  14. #14
    Flashaholic*
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    i think that HDS might just be some kind of freak of nature!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond View Post
    Should have tried a XP-L HI. It's a great looking LED in the light and equivalent beam pattern to a XP-G2. Although - if you aren't driving it any higher than the stock XP-G2 would be driven there is no need for the mod. But if you are going up to ~3 Amps it's another story.
    I think you may be right about XPL HI, I thought it would be a big improvement but never bothered to test my theory.
    I used a 4000K XPL which has a fairly ordinary tint and CRI which I didn't like at all. Dedoming it was a what the heck kind of thing. The domes come off so easily on the XPL, you can basically pull them off cleanly with no cutting, of course after which the tint was even more ordinary.
    In hind sight a 5000K XPL HI would have been quite good I always thought but never tried and as you mention at my prefered current range would be of little to no benefit over an XPG2 of which I really like.
    As far as your pictures go str8stroke it does appear contrary. Even the beam profiles don't look how I would expect but I have no idea how you took the pictures. Ideally they'd be taken with a DSLR with fixed aperture, exposure and white balance etc.
    Either way, I'll just agree to disagree. The design of the HDS reflector lends to a floodier beam while the Haiku (with XPG reflector) lends to more throw of which I've tested many times with my own lights as mentioned.
    I've got the gear and knowledge to take high quality photos to compare and demonstrate but I've never posted any pics and basically couldn't be assed so people can take my word for it or not.
    Last edited by F89; 03-09-2016 at 10:41 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    I built a LE with an XPL but didn't like it, then dedomed it and didn't like it so I turned it into a 660nm red XPE.
    Max current on the Hive is 1.2A using a liion.
    The hive won't work with primaries? A primary can easily handle 1.2 amps.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    The hive won't work with primaries? A primary can easily handle 1.2 amps.
    As far as I remember, yes it won't operate at 1.2A with primaries. I've only tried it on liion at that level though but I did read that even at the default 1A setting that it will automatically drop a little with a primary.
    Mine is currently set to 700mA on high from memory, it also is powering a non standard issue LED being a 219C.
    Overall I would say that it works perfectly fine on primaries, liion and lifpo batties. I've used mine with lithium CR123 and AA x2, liion 16340 and 16650 and lifpo K2 Energy 16340 size.
    Last edited by F89; 03-10-2016 at 12:23 AM.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    The hive won't work with primaries? A primary can easily handle 1.2 amps.
    From what I've read the Hive will handle primaries fine. But remember that is 1.2 Amps to the LED. Under the load the voltage of a CR123 will drop to 2.5 volts or less meaning that it will need to deliver over 1.5Amps to drive the circuit. As the voltage of the primary cell drops it just might not be able to keep up with the required boost.

    In some previous Haiku's I've owned I bought a 1.2A Gdup driver from Wayne and installed it in the LE. It would work fine on liions but when handed a primary the high level would struggle.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond View Post
    From what I've read the Hive will handle primaries fine. But remember that is 1.2 Amps to the LED. Under the load the voltage of a CR123 will drop to 2.5 volts or less meaning that it will need to deliver over 1.5Amps to drive the circuit. As the voltage of the primary cell drops it just might not be able to keep up with the required boost.

    In some previous Haiku's I've owned I bought a 1.2A Gdup driver from Wayne and installed it in the LE. It would work fine on liions but when handed a primary the high level would struggle.
    Thanks. 1.2 amps is still more than HDS can deliver. Is the max as high with the other driver? I'm sorry I forget what it is called.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    You mean the stock 3S driver? IIRC that's around 650mA on max.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* Ladd's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Wow, the OP got his moneys worth with this thread. Lots of good info here!

    Hope alanshort is still around to benefit as much as I did.
    Thanks, CPF!

  22. #22

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Thanks. 1.2 amps is still more than HDS can deliver. Is the max as high with the other driver? I'm sorry I forget what it is called.
    Also - you won't be able to run that 1.2 Amps continuous. The HDS has better heat management than the Haiku.

    The heatsink on the HDS is right up against the back of the LED and PCB.
    On the Haiku LE there is nothing behind the PCB inside where the LED is. The heat has to travel sideways through the PCB out to the edge where it is dissipated.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond View Post
    Also - you won't be able to run that 1.2 Amps continuous. The HDS has better heat management than the Haiku.

    The heatsink on the HDS is right up against the back of the LED and PCB.
    On the Haiku LE there is nothing behind the PCB inside where the LED is. The heat has to travel sideways through the PCB out to the edge where it is dissipated.
    Hmm. People rave about this flashlight. That seems pretty poor. You scared me off

  24. #24

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by recDNA View Post
    Hmm. People rave about this flashlight. That seems pretty poor. You scared me off
    It's not as bad as it sounds. The MCPCB of the LED is actually sandwiched between the the head and the screw in can (made out of nickel plated aluminium) that its mounted on which also has 4 metal posts contacting the scalloped cut outs around the MCPCB.
    There is still plenty of contact area for heat under normal drive currents.

  25. #25
    Flashaholic* Tejasandre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    My haiku kills a battery before it ever gets hot. No heat issue. Hive & xp-g2 123.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    There is still plenty of contact area for heat under normal drive currents.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tejasandre View Post
    My haiku kills a battery before it ever gets hot. No heat issue. Hive & xp-g2 123.
    I don't want to make it worse than it sounds, but still a potential issue if running at 1.2Amps with a LiIon constantly. More heat will build-up right at the LED which could impact LED longevity.

    Just because you don't feel the heat doesn't mean it isn't trapped in there right at the LED where it is produced. We are talking about the dissipation of heat and if the pathway isn't big enough it builds up at the source.

    Now this hasn't stopped me from building my nutso 3Amp XP-L HI Haiku. I just set the Turbo timer for 30 seconds so the light will step down and minimize the risk.

  27. #27
    Flashaholic* Tejasandre's Avatar
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    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Guess I should also say my HDS doesn't get hot either. Both statements are feel of the hand - non scientific opinions.

    Now...TinyDC & sinner get crazy hot.

  28. #28

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Quote Originally Posted by ShineOnYouCrazyDiamond View Post
    I don't want to make it worse than it sounds, but still a potential issue if running at 1.2Amps with a LiIon constantly. More heat will build-up right at the LED which could impact LED longevity.

    Just because you don't feel the heat doesn't mean it isn't trapped in there right at the LED where it is produced. We are talking about the dissipation of heat and if the pathway isn't big enough it builds up at the source.

    Now this hasn't stopped me from building my nutso 3Amp XP-L HI Haiku. I just set the Turbo timer for 30 seconds so the light will step down and minimize the risk.
    I don't think 1.2A is a problem with a Hive driven Haiku. The thermal regulation of the driver will throttle it down if heat builds up too much anyway. I also feel that while there is an air space directly below the LED that the thermal path from the MCPCB to the can and light body is sufficient. Perhaps not so much at 3A but that's definitely burst only territory for such a design.
    Looking at the HDS LED PCB it appears not to be of the metal core variety like McGizmo, I could be wrong? I'm sure it has to have at least a metal pad in there but a HDS may be no more efficient at extracting heat from the LED than a Haiku?
    My HDS lights never feel warm although I did read somewhere that they don't rely on conducting heat through to the outer shell of the body. My Haikus do get warm though, in particular with the Hive at 1 or 1.2A so you can feel a definite amount of heat being conducted.
    Either way I think that both the Haiku, even though titanium being a lower conductor of heat than aluminum, and the HDS do a more than adequate job of removing heat from the LED.
    From memory I did notice a touch more conduction with the Hive after I removed the stock aluminium MCPCB and replaced it with a carefully filed and fitted 20mm copper star type MCPCB.
    Last edited by F89; 03-10-2016 at 06:44 PM.

  29. #29

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    I guess the test, if you have an infrared thermometer, would be to run it on 1.2Amps for a while until the body is nice and warm. Then remove the light engine quickly and take a temp reading of the PCB right at the base of the LED.

    At the end of the day I don't think it's a huge concern unless you run the light day in and day out always on full blast every time. And that doesn't really fit what I would consider the general usage pattern for a Haiku. I would think most people who are graduating to a McGizmo light already have a few other lights and probably have at least one higher powered one for bigger tasks.

  30. #30

    Default Re: Haiku Build - However which options??

    Or they have a modded 3 amp Haiku! 😉

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