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Thread: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

  1. #1
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Good afternoon,

    I'd like some advice please regarding the HIVE converter on a Haiku vs the 3S.

    I've made up my mind on the following: XP-G2 and the single cell CR123 body. This will be my first Haiku. However, I don't know which way to go regarding the converter: either the HIVE or 3S. I have read the HIVE thread in its entirety twice and the most recent thread several times regarding Haiku options as compared to an HDS. Based on my reading I've come up with the following considerations and questions:

    - In all likelihood I will not program the light unless I am bothered by the LL level's PWM, which has been noted in the thread referenced above. (I have not reprogrammed any of my RaLights that I have had for years, which is what leads me to the same assumption with the Haiku. I could obviously be wrong not having owned a Haiku.) If I do end up raising the LL level to remove the PWM, then I am very close to the 3S low it seems?

    - I like the fourth level in the HIVE- the LL, if indeed PWM isn't an issue as noted above.

    - I traded a couple of emails with Don before posting here regarding the high level on the HIVE. He's alleviated any heat concerns I had as the HIVE converter apparently steps downs as needed to mitigate the problem should it arise. However, it seems that the HIVE high should be regarded more as a turbo level, for short periods of use. Given this, does the "medium" HIVE level provide adequate light for most tasks, comparable to the high level on the 3S?

    - I'm just not sure if I would take advantage of the HIVE's capability, although I would like the LL if PWM isn't an issue for me. On the other hand, am I being short-sighted not to go with the HIVE for its programming potential?

    - Lastly, does the HIVE converter open up new battery configurations with the XP-G2 that the 3S converter does not?

    Any advice would be much appreciated.
    Last edited by CLBME; 03-11-2016 at 12:05 PM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    PM replied to.

    Forgot to mention in my PM about battery configurations. The 3S and Hive will accept the same chemistries and basic voltage range.
    I've tried and use in mine: Lithium Primaries (CR123, AA x2), Liion 16340, 16650, Lifpo 16340 (the K2 Energy ones I quite like for a few reasons and stopped using AW 16340s).

  3. #3
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Thank you F89 for the followup and most helpful PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    PM replied to.

    Forgot to mention in my PM about battery configurations. The 3S and Hive will accept the same chemistries and basic voltage range.
    I've tried and use in mine: Lithium Primaries (CR123, AA x2), Liion 16340, 16650, Lifpo 16340 (the K2 Energy ones I quite like for a few reasons and stopped using AW 16340s).

  4. #4
    Flashaholic rush's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Hi CLBME,
    even though you are not sure if you would like to use the programming capability, it does indeed provide the flexibility to choose the output levels as you desire. That way you can change the LL output if the PWM would bother you too much. The default output levels work for most of us, but the thought of being able to change them is reassuring i think.
    All of the mentioned battery types will work with the Hive driver, you just have to notice that the maximum output will be lower for primary cells because of the lower voltage level.

  5. #5
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Hi rush,

    Thank you for the reply and thoughts.

    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    Hi CLBME,
    even though you are not sure if you would like to use the programming capability, it does indeed provide the flexibility to choose the output levels as you desire. That way you can change the LL output if the PWM would bother you too much. The default output levels work for most of us, but the thought of being able to change them is reassuring i think.
    All of the mentioned battery types will work with the Hive driver, you just have to notice that the maximum output will be lower for primary cells because of the lower voltage level.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    I recommend getting the Hive. The top end (turbo) is worth it. You just have to not watch a movie some evening and figure out the programming. Then, once it is saved the way you like it, you are done.

    I have the XPG2 with Hive and it is fantastic.

    eala

  7. #7
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Good evening eala,

    Thanks for the reply. I still haven't ordered the light yet and am considering both. I appreciate your input.

    Quote Originally Posted by eala View Post
    I recommend getting the Hive. The top end (turbo) is worth it. You just have to not watch a movie some evening and figure out the programming. Then, once it is saved the way you like it, you are done.

    I have the XPG2 with Hive and it is fantastic.

    eala

  8. #8

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Get the HIVE converter. It has low voltage protection and thermal protection. The default levels are also pretty good with a nice turbo and a useful moonlight. The mode switching window is also a little longer on the HIVE by default but it can be programmed shorter or longer. This means it can be easier to switch modes as opposed to the 3s. Though if you liked the shorter interval it can be set on the HIVE.
    You can also set preset levels for experimenting and easy switching.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* RedLED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    No matter, you will love owing a Haiku.
    Check my Web Site: www.Redwayphoto.com

  10. #10
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Hi Thetasigma,

    Thanks for the reply. Did you experience the visual problem with PWM on the moonlight level in its stock configuration or did you need to bump it up too?


    Quote Originally Posted by Thetasigma View Post
    Get the HIVE converter. It has low voltage protection and thermal protection. The default levels are also pretty good with a nice turbo and a useful moonlight. The mode switching window is also a little longer on the HIVE by default but it can be programmed shorter or longer. This means it can be easier to switch modes as opposed to the 3s. Though if you liked the shorter interval it can be set on the HIVE.
    You can also set preset levels for experimenting and easy switching.

  11. #11
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Hi RedLED. Thanks! Just overlapped posts. I believe you are right either way. I've read many of your posts. Do you have both the HIVE and 3S?

    Quote Originally Posted by RedLED View Post
    No matter, you will love owing a Haiku.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetasigma View Post
    Get the HIVE converter. It has low voltage protection and thermal protection. The default levels are also pretty good with a nice turbo and a useful moonlight. The mode switching window is also a little longer on the HIVE by default but it can be programmed shorter or longer. This means it can be easier to switch modes as opposed to the 3s. Though if you liked the shorter interval it can be set on the HIVE.
    You can also set preset levels for experimenting and easy switching.
    The 3S also has low voltage protection and doesn't really need thermal protection.
    I can live without a turbo mode and have a longer lasting more sustainable high.
    Moonlight for me was unusable on the Hive with its strong PWM, low isn't great either (more than 12mA) with its unstable mild occasional flicker.
    The 3S changes modes easily and is spot on with three well thought out and spaced levels.
    3S hands down for me.
    If you want to play with modes and get a functional moonlight I think HDS is the only way.
    Don't get me wrong, i think the designer of the Hive is a very clever person but i just think the converter needs some improvements and changes. If these improvements can be made or not I don't know but when it comes to the 3S while it lacks the bells and whistles it just works and works very well which I find more useful and fitting of a McGizmo.
    Last edited by F89; 03-14-2016 at 03:28 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by CLBME View Post
    Hi Thetasigma,

    Thanks for the reply. Did you experience the visual problem with PWM on the moonlight level in its stock configuration or did you need to bump it up too?
    While I can tell the moonlight uses PWM if I wave it in front of my face, I haven't had any issues in actual use, no visible flickering in any mode either.
    I should mention I have a converter from after RUSH fixed them and it was ordered at the end of December.

    Quote Originally Posted by F89 View Post
    The 3S also has low voltage protection and doesn't really need thermal protection.
    I can live without a turbo mode and have a longer lasting more sustainable high.
    Moonlight for me was unusable on the Hive with its strong PWM, low isn't great either (more than 12mA) with its unstable mild occasional flicker.
    The 3S changes modes easily and is spot on with three well thought out and spaced levels.
    3S hands down for me.
    If you want to play with modes and get a functional moonlight I think HDS is the only way.
    Don't get me wrong, i think the designer of the Hive is a very clever person but i just think the converter needs some improvements and changes. If these improvements can be made or not I don't know but when it comes to the 3S while it lacks the bells and whistles it just works and works very well which I find more useful and fitting of a McGizmo.
    Fair enough on the thermal protection, but the extra output can be handy from time to time, particularly with the excellent throw the haiku has for its size, which makes it a nice feature.
    That's interesting that you have flickering issues, do you have one of the early boards? Mine is one of the second revision and has zero flickering in any mode and the PWM is only noticeable if I purposely search for it by waving the light in front of my face.

  14. #14
    gunga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Good feedback F89. Moonlight is my most used mode. Slow pwm would really bother me.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetasigma View Post
    While I can tell the moonlight uses PWM if I wave it in front of my face, I haven't had any issues in actual use, no visible flickering in any mode either.
    I should mention I have a converter from after RUSH fixed them and it was ordered at the end of December.


    Fair enough on the thermal protection, but the extra output can be handy from time to time, particularly with the excellent throw the haiku has for its size, which makes it a nice feature.
    That's interesting that you have flickering issues, do you have one of the early boards? Mine is one of the second revision and has zero flickering in any mode and the PWM is only noticeable if I purposely search for it by waving the light in front of my face.
    I got my Hive before the change I beleive but mine never had an issue with firing up on the moonlight level, although I didn't leave it at that level for too long due to the PWM issue. My understanding of the fix was to add a short power spike when turning on in a moonlight level to wake the driver up enough and avoid the issue of it not turning on at all.
    Perhaps mine is different to others but I recall Rush acknowledging the mild flicker I see in mine at low levels above or close to just above non PWM levels. Try it for yourself if you like by programming a level above approx 12mA where PWM stops but is close to it (I think mine is around 20mA or so currently but I'd have to check the chart) then tail stand the light, if your eyes are sensitive you'll notice the flicker. It doesn't occur on high levels, just ones close to but above the PWM levels.
    Rush has a very comprehensive page on programming the Hive with various tables with correlating levels to mA.
    As far as the PWM levels go, if it doesn't bother you that's great but I found it very slow and choppy which is something I'd rather do without. I can live with PWM sometimes but it has to be very fast.
    Last edited by F89; 03-14-2016 at 08:39 PM.

  16. #16
    gunga's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    I think it was a few hundred Hz. Far too slow for me.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by gunga View Post
    Good feedback F89. Moonlight is my most used mode. Slow pwm would really bother me.
    Happy to help. Unfortunately I think you'd feel as I do about the moonlight on the Hive.
    I'm hoping that I'm not coming off too negative in these threads, I'm just really interested in this stuff and like to share my honest thoughts and opinions with fellow light nuts.
    Last edited by F89; 03-14-2016 at 09:02 PM.

  18. #18
    Flashaholic* RedLED's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by CLBME View Post
    Hi RedLED. Thanks! Just overlapped posts. I believe you are right either way. I've read many of your posts. Do you have both the HIVE and 3S?
    I have the 3S, however, I am going to get a Hive in a Sun Drop Head.

    Also the solid titanium is amazing. You can restore the finish in two minutes with Scotch Brite Pads. Make them look new again.
    Last edited by RedLED; 03-15-2016 at 08:11 PM.
    Check my Web Site: www.Redwayphoto.com

  19. #19
    Flashaholic rush's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    No doubt the PWM on the LL level and the possible slow flicker on the lowest non-PWM levels can be noticed if you are sensitive to those things. Unfortunately you will have to find out yourself, but it seems that for most it is not a real issue, at least it seems so to me.
    The fix issued for the drivers not long after the initial release indeed was a short output current boost to ensure the output actually comes on. This was not targeted at improving the "stability" of the low output levels without PWM however.
    Your critical feedback is most welcome, so no need to apologize. This gives me motivation to further improve those aspects, creating the best possible driver (for McGizmo lights) is my goal after all.
    Last edited by rush; 03-19-2016 at 03:56 PM.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by rush View Post
    No doubt the PWM on the LL level and the possible slow flicker on the lowest non-PWM levels can be noticed if you are sensitive to those things. Unfortunately you will have to find out yourself, but it seems that for most it is not a real issue, at least it seems so to me.
    The fix issued for the drivers not long after the initial release indeed was a short output current boost to ensure the output actually comes on. This was not targeted at improving the "stability" of the low output levels without PWM however.
    Your critical feedback is most welcome, so no need to apologize. This gives me motivation to further improve those aspects, creating the best possible driver (for McGizmo lights) is my goal after all.
    I would tend to agree on your thoughts about PWM. I may well be more sensitive to it than most, my eyes are pretty sharp and I notice things that potentially bother me that others generally wouldn't so myself and gunga by the sounds of things are probably a minority.
    Can't argue with your attitude rush, very gentlemanly.
    While I currently favour the 3S I look forward to your development of the Hive.

  21. #21
    Flashaholic* stoli67's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    I really like my new hive.

    i have half a dozen of the original driver and an XML sandwich shoppe updated 1200mah driver but I like to tinker with the settings !

    Also so I do find it easier to cycle through the levels on the new hive than on either of the other types.

    At the end of the day you can't really go wrong .... I am now left with the problem of having spare drivers.... Maybe I need more haiku heads�� ... Then I will no doubt get more bodies later.

    one thing I would say is that my second choice is my high CRI haiku and mule.... So very nice that beam
    Currently into SPYs And McGizmos
    My Lights In Detail

  22. #22
    Flashaholic CLBME's Avatar
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    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Thank you to everyone for their replies and special thanks to F89 and nbp for their pm's and help. I ended up going with the HIVE converter. F89 is indeed correct about the flicker and PWM, however, my eyes don't appear to be bothered by either so I am happy with the HIVE choice. I did ask Don to solder the jumper, but I don't intend to do any programming immediately if at all. I orded an XP-G2. Outstanding light in both form and function.

    Here's a quick and admittedly awful cell' phone shot with my work light.

  23. #23

    Default Re: Advice needed: HIVE vs 3S for Haiku

    Quote Originally Posted by CLBME View Post
    Thank you to everyone for their replies and special thanks to F89 and nbp for their pm's and help. I ended up going with the HIVE converter. F89 is indeed correct about the flicker and PWM, however, my eyes don't appear to be bothered by either so I am happy with the HIVE choice. I did ask Don to solder the jumper, but I don't intend to do any programming immediately if at all. I orded an XP-G2. Outstanding light in both form and function.
    You're welcome.
    Congratulations on your Haiku, looks great. I even like the look of the used 6p it's resting on.
    Programming is made quite simple due to Rush's comprehensive web page, it's worth having a look.
    Enjoy.

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