"Pre-Release" Lights Discussion

ArmyTek

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This thread is a groups of posts split off from the main Prime thread to keep things on topic.

- nbp




I just ordered a prime C2 pro warm V3 was there a pre-release of this light. Is the manual the same as v2 on your website..

Thank you for your order!
It was only one pre-release batch. So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of :)
For your confidence it is better to order lights directly from Armytek website using promocode "bonus8". We have only latest models. :)
 
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scs

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Thank you for your order!
It was only one pre-release batch. So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of :)
For your confidence it is better to order lights directly from Armytek website using promocode "bonus8". We have only latest models. :)

Does this statement rub anyone the wrong way as well?
"Buy from us direct and you have nothing to be afraid of [nothing to worry about]," that's how it comes off the way I read it.
Are your dealers not authorized distributors of your products?
Do you not stand behind the products you sell through those dealers.

Are dealers the receptacles of out-of-spec, substandard samples of your products?
 
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Woods Walker

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Does this statement rub anyone the wrong way as well?
"Buy from us direct and you have nothing to be afraid of [nothing to worry about]," that's how it comes off the way I read it.
Are your dealers not authorized distributors of your products?
Do you not stand behind the products you sell through those dealers.

Are dealers the receptacles of out-of-spec, substandard samples of your products?

I think dealers order products for resale and when or if those dealers sell them is beyond anyone's control. So maybe they're saying that on the company website only the most up to date versions are sold as they have direct control over that. Odds are they would support any light within the warranty period but then again the best support is the one that's not needed.
 

ArmyTek

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Does this statement rub anyone the wrong way as well?
"Buy from us direct and you have nothing to be afraid of [nothing to worry about]," that's how it comes off the way I read it.
Are your dealers not authorized distributors of your products?
Do you not stand behind the products you sell through those dealers.

Are dealers the receptacles of out-of-spec, substandard samples of your products?

Yes, all dealers are authorized distributors of Armytek products. But we can`t control how many flashlights and from which batch has been sold.
 

rfl

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Thank you for your order!
It was only one pre-release batch. So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of :)
For your confidence it is better to order lights directly from Armytek website using promocode "bonus8". We have only latest models. :)


This is an appalling position for a manufacturer to take, and smiley faces don't help.

"So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of"

The above statement is equivalent to saying "If you ordered a Prime from a dealer who did not have pre-release models in stock then you would not have received a pre-release model." That is a tautological statement. Anyone who took debate classes knows that tautological statements add nothing to a conversation. That statement only serves to distract from the real question which is "what is the actual likely hood that I will get a pre-release model when I order from a retailer.

We know Armytek distributes pre release models that have sub standard features and are poorly documented. I've talked to retailers and I know that Armytek will substitute pre release models for current models without warning to the retailers. I think the retailers don't have a choice in the matter. Some retailers are left with a mix of current and pre release models which makes things very awkward for them.

We've also learned that when customers have questions about their pre release models Armytek disavows any responsibility and places the burden on the retailer. Note the retailer never asked for the pre release units to begin with.

Armytek deliberately puts their retailers and customers into precarious situations with their irresponsible practices when they roll out new models. Then they blame the retailers.

And then, most appallingly, on this forum Armytek undermines those retailers by suggesting that customers (for their own safety) should avoid the retailers and order directly from Armytek. That is thoroughly unacceptable. Again, smiley faces only make it worse.

(To be sure the following text is about regular Partners -- not the Partner Pro.)

The current regular Partners are listed on the Armytek site as XM-L2 flashlights. A member of another forum ordered a Partner C2 from a respected retailer which was out of stock at the time. The new stock, received by that retailer of Partner C2 units have XP-L emitters. Because the Armytek site is still listing XM-L2 Partners, it seems possible that the XP-L units received by this retailer are pre release XP-L units.

Is it Armytek's official position that we should avoid purchasing these XP-L units from this respected and valued retailer?
 

scs

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

This is an appalling position for a manufacturer to take, and smiley faces don't help.

"So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of"

The above statement is equivalent to saying "If you ordered a Prime from a dealer who did not have pre-release models in stock then you would not have received a pre-release model." That is a tautological statement. Anyone who took debate classes knows that tautological statements add nothing to a conversation. That statement only serves to distract from the real question which is "what is the actual likely hood that I will get a pre-release model when I order from a retailer.

We know Armytek distributes pre release models that have sub standard features and are poorly documented. I've talked to retailers and I know that Armytek will substitute pre release models for current models without warning to the retailers. I think the retailers don't have a choice in the matter. Some retailers are left with a mix of current and pre release models which makes things very awkward for them.

We've also learned that when customers have questions about their pre release models Armytek disavows any responsibility and places the burden on the retailer. Note the retailer never asked for the pre release units to begin with.

Armytek deliberately puts their retailers and customers into precarious situations with their irresponsible practices when they roll out new models. Then they blame the retailers.

And then, most appallingly, on this forum Armytek undermines those retailers by suggesting that customers (for their own safety) should avoid the retailers and order directly from Armytek. That is thoroughly unacceptable. Again, smiley faces only make it worse.

(To be sure the following text is about regular Partners -- not the Partner Pro.)

The current regular Partners are listed on the Armytek site as XM-L2 flashlights. A member of another forum ordered a Partner C2 from a respected retailer which was out of stock at the time. The new stock, received by that retailer of Partner C2 units have XP-L emitters. Because the Armytek site is still listing XM-L2 Partners, it seems possible that the XP-L units received by this retailer are pre release XP-L units.

Is it Armytek's official position that we should avoid purchasing these XP-L units from this respected and valued retailer?

Well said!
AT, what say you?
 

ArmyTek

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

This is an appalling position for a manufacturer to take, and smiley faces don't help.

"So if you ordered your Prime from a dealer who often renews his range - you have nothing to be afraid of"

The above statement is equivalent to saying "If you ordered a Prime from a dealer who did not have pre-release models in stock then you would not have received a pre-release model." That is a tautological statement. Anyone who took debate classes knows that tautological statements add nothing to a conversation. That statement only serves to distract from the real question which is "what is the actual likely hood that I will get a pre-release model when I order from a retailer.

We know Armytek distributes pre release models that have sub standard features and are poorly documented. I've talked to retailers and I know that Armytek will substitute pre release models for current models without warning to the retailers. I think the retailers don't have a choice in the matter. Some retailers are left with a mix of current and pre release models which makes things very awkward for them.

We've also learned that when customers have questions about their pre release models Armytek disavows any responsibility and places the burden on the retailer. Note the retailer never asked for the pre release units to begin with.

Armytek deliberately puts their retailers and customers into precarious situations with their irresponsible practices when they roll out new models. Then they blame the retailers.

And then, most appallingly, on this forum Armytek undermines those retailers by suggesting that customers (for their own safety) should avoid the retailers and order directly from Armytek. That is thoroughly unacceptable. Again, smiley faces only make it worse.

(To be sure the following text is about regular Partners -- not the Partner Pro.)

The current regular Partners are listed on the Armytek site as XM-L2 flashlights. A member of another forum ordered a Partner C2 from a respected retailer which was out of stock at the time. The new stock, received by that retailer of Partner C2 units have XP-L emitters. Because the Armytek site is still listing XM-L2 Partners, it seems possible that the XP-L units received by this retailer are pre release XP-L units.

Is it Armytek's official position that we should avoid purchasing these XP-L units from this respected and valued retailer?

I guess I have missed this post. Sorry for the delay in replying please.
When you wrote this post - Partners weren`t in stock.

We added them in stock in March - Partners

You can purchase flashlight anywhere you want if it is comfortable for you. But we can`t control all dealers and all batches they release.
 

scs

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

I guess I have missed this post. Sorry for the delay in replying please.
When you wrote this post - Partners weren`t in stock.

We added them in stock in March - Partners

You can purchase flashlight anywhere you want if it is comfortable for you. But we can`t control all dealers and all batches they release.

And a :). It's hopeless, rfl. I don't know whether there's a language barrier or we're dealing with very thick skin. Very thick indeed.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

And a :). It's hopeless, rfl. I don't know whether there's a language barrier or we're dealing with very thick skin. Very thick indeed.

From my interpretation they don't and can't control what the dealers sell at any single point in time. Seems obvious to me.
 

rfl

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

From my interpretation they don't and can't control what the dealers sell at any single point in time. Seems obvious to me.

Armytek sells poorly documented pre-release models to retailers and then Armytek disavows any responsibility for the existence of those units when they fail to meet published specifications for performance and/or features. Then Armytek undermines their retailers by discouraging customers from ordering from Armytek's own retailers by assuring customers that buying directly from Armytek is the best way to avoid receiving a pre-release unit -- that Armytek sold to the retailer in the first place. It also seems pretty clear that the retailers cannot know what they will receive when ordering stock from Armytek. The retailers are at Armytek's mercy.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Armytek sells poorly documented pre-release models to retailers and then Armytek disavows any responsibility for the existence of those units when they fail to meet published specifications for performance and/or features. Then Armytek undermines their retailers by discouraging customers from ordering from Armytek's own retailers by assuring customers that buying directly from Armytek is the best way to avoid receiving a pre-release unit -- that Armytek sold to the retailer in the first place. It also seems pretty clear that the retailers cannot know what they will receive when ordering stock from Armytek. The retailers are at Armytek's mercy.

Actually they're all poorly documented as in no manual and the web site isn't accurate either dealer purchase or direct. LOL! Armytek said they have no clue what's out there in terms of dealer stock. I just went to Going Gear. They have mostly XM-L2 but seen a XP-L the differences of which are probably irrelevant in actual use. How could any manufacture know what every dealer has in terms of stock? Armytek said they do know what their stock is however. Sounds kinda easy and rational to me. Call me crazy but odds are they want to sell lights. be those to dealers or individuals. As for the black helicopter stuff who knows? I don't.
 

rfl

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Actually they're all poorly documented as in no manual and the web site isn't accurate either dealer purchase or direct. LOL! Armytek said they have no clue what's out there in terms of dealer stock. I just went to Going Gear. They have mostly XM-L2 but seen a XP-L the differences of which are probably irrelevant in actual use. How could any manufacture know what every dealer has in terms of stock? Armytek said they do know what their stock is however. Sounds kinda easy and rational to me. Call me crazy but odds are they want to sell lights. be those to dealers or individuals. As for the black helicopter stuff who knows? I don't.

I don't think there is any black helicopter stuff going on. I do think it is irresponsible of Armytek to deliver pre-release units to retailers who must prefer to get production units. I don't know of any other name brand manufacturer that puts their retailers in such awkward positions.

The absence of a manual suggests a brand new model and Armytek hasn't finalized the design. Units that appear at retailers when there isn't a published manual online are very possibly pre-release units. The appearance of the manual suggest that Armytek has finalized the design and is providing production models. And once the manual appears, unsuspecting customers who ordered early might find their flashlights do not match the specs and/or features in the manual.

I don't know of any name brand manufacturer that does this kind of thing. I do see that budget lights from Chinese manufacturers change frequently. You can never be too sure what you'll get when you order a $18 Convoy from Gearbest or which reflector is in the Eagle Eye X6 with the XP-L HI as opposed to the BLF Special Edition of that light etc. But Armytek isn't selling budget lights and they claim not to be a Chinese company!

Again, I don't think it's black helicopter stuff at all. It's simply Armytek supplying pre-release units to retailers and then blaming the retailers for selling them. It's a terrible practice that should stop.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Gosh it still sounds like unproven speculation.

But all that said it is still their fault as the manual should be included and web site up to date. Here is what is more important to me.

1. As an owner of the gear item I am posting in the manufacturer's sub forum. See for yourself. Changed out that OD lanyard tonight with bright orange. Dang Armytek! OD? LOL! It was screaming to get lost in the woods



2. So far it works just fine. Take a look for yourself.



Hope it keeps working.....
 

eraursls1984

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Gosh it still sounds like unproven speculation.
It's definitely just speculation, except they admit it and tell us to buy directly from them and not their authorized dealers to avoid this. That is in their own subforum. Also, I have one of their out of spec pieces of garbage, and have experienced their horrible customer service. The manual was available when I ordered mine (first generation Tiara) but it was completely useless since mine wasn't to their specs.
 

andrewnewman

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Yes. Lots of speculation as well as some interpretation from a seemingly helpful Armytek representative (ok..maybe too many smiley faces :) who *may* be facing a language barrier. It seems that the company (who presumably continues to read their own subforum) could benefit from a little assistance. I have some (and guess what, it's free!)

1. Your PrimePro is covered with lots of marginally useful writing. Add some more. Include a Part #, Engineering Change # and Mfr. Batch # (or heck, just a serial number and keep good records).

2. Don't ship products that you know for a fact will have a high return rate due to an already identified flaw.

3. Stuff happens. If you update the overall light meaningfully (new emitter, etc...) change the part #. If you make an engineering change, change the engineering change #. Have a unique batch # for each production run.

4. Remember that when those of us in North America realize their flashlight has to visit the Pacific Rim to be repaired under warranty, internalize what "hassle free" really means. We're already planning a minimum of 30 days without our light. Ask us for the above mentioned numbers and if the problem we are complaining about was fixed in a later EC, agree to send us a new light right away. If you get a significant failure rate report from a unique batch # and ours is part of that batch, send us a new light right away. Otherwise ask us to send our light for that 30 day trip abroad. No video. Regardless of what you find with the light, send us instance of the latest version of the model in question (assuming it's still made or unless we specifically indicate otherwise).

Step #4 may superficially appear to open up the doors for abuse. Take the chance. LL Bean has always taken back their products at any point. I know people who have returned 10 year old shoes because they were worn out. LL Bean gives them a new pair, no charge. I don't do that. Most reasonable people expect shoes to last less than 10 years. I would bet most flashlight users won't incur the hassle of sending their light abroad just to "trick" a company into sending them a slightly newer version of the same model.

The good will would be enormous.
 

rfl

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Gosh it still sounds like unproven speculation.

It isn't speculation.

Armytek does distribute pre-release units to retailers that 1) Armytek doesn't sell on their own site and 2) don't meet the features/specifications for the final designs that Armytek does sell on their site.

Read the first couple of pages of the Dobermann thread in this forum for some details. In particular note comment #49 where Armytek states "It is not a defect in the flashlight, it is just a pre-release model with other number of modes."

Armytek announced the Dobermann and put up some specs on their site but no manuals and they were listed as "out of stock" on Armytek's site. They sold a batch of early Dobermanns to a few dealers who naturally sold them to customers. Armytek added firefly and strobe modes to the final design. When they produced a production batch of that final design, they became "in stock" on the Armytek site and they published the manuals. Customers who bought the early batch were happy to finally have access to a manual but were disappointed when their lights didn't have the features mentioned in the manual. Note, Armytek never sold any lights from that first batch themselves. They let their retailers serve as the guinea pigs for the pre-release units.

When I posted my original comment about all of this Armytek was listing XM-L2 Partners as out of stock on their site. A member of another forum was contacted by a reputable retailer that their back ordered XM-L2 Partner would not be available as such because Armytek's latest shipment were XP-L models. From most manufacturers that would indicate a simple upgrade. However, the fact that Armytek hadn't listed XP-L Partners or provided manuals for XP-L Partners on their own site was a red flag (to anyone that has followed Armytek's own comments) that these were could very likely be a batch of "pre-release" XP-L units. Armytek has stated that the best way to avoid getting such pre-relase units to only buy directly from Armytek. That is kind of a rotten thing to do the retailers.

I'm going to try to drive that point home. We do know Armytek distributes pre-release units to retailers that Armytek will not sell themselves. It was reasonable to wonder if the early XP-L units at the retailer were such pre-release units that might not match the finalized design. When customers express concern about such units Armytek undermines the retailers by suggesting customers deal directly with Armytek.
 

andrewnewman

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Forgive my Saturday cheery disposition and desire to help Armytek. Even if they admit to selling pre-production models through retailers (and despite the convincing but circumstantial additional evidence), it doesn't necessarily mean that it's SOP.

Hey Armytek! You out there? Please try to rehabilitate yourself. I'll help. Below is a paragraph you are welcome to borrow as your own if you wish:

"Dear CPF members who may have received pre-production models. While we acknowledge that some of these units made it into the retail stream, we would like to remedy this regrettable situation. If you believe you are in possession of a pre-production Armytek flashlight that you bought through one of our retailers, please PM me. I'll ask for specifics to confirm and then promise to make the situation right for you."

After confirmation, Armytek could easily send out the proper production run flashlight. Doubt it would bankrupt them.
 

Woods Walker

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

It's definitely just speculation, except they admit it and tell us to buy directly from them and not their authorized dealers to avoid this. That is in their own subforum. Also, I have one of their out of spec pieces of garbage, and have experienced their horrible customer service. The manual was available when I ordered mine (first generation Tiara) but it was completely useless since mine wasn't to their specs.

My Tiara V2 doesn't have all the features shown on their downloadable manual (one wasn't included which isn't ideal). For example there is no main LED battery check mode on T4. Just SOS and Strobe. But does that show proof of conspiracy? No argument they need to do better but I really think this just spin and speculation. Anyways why are we talking about every other model other than the Prime and Prime Pro? Am I the only one talking about the actual light within this topic aka the Prime? How strange is that? So if you download the V2 manual for the Prime A2 Pro and the others as well you will see the same issue as the Tiara, no primary LED voltage indication on T4 despite the manual saying there is one. I think (speculation not proven fact) it was omitted because early reviews showed that feature didn't work. Odds are the V3 manual shows that feature as well and it probably isn't there on the light.

So there you have it. An inconsistency in what the manual says and what 3 of my lights actually have. I suppose that could be worked a major conspiracy. LOL! I could claim that makes them "completely useless" except I can't see in the dark and they do light up so.......... All of that said they need to work harder at this issue and agree with those who might be angry after buying a gear item and not getting everything listed in the online documentation. Not debating that just think this conspiracy stuff has gotten out of hand. Then again if they did a better job this wouldn't be an issue.
 
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nbp

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

Ok, I have split off the discussion of the pre-release lights from the Prime thread and made it it's own topic. I think it is a valid point of discussion; but of course let's continue to be civil and respectful as we have been. Post if there are any problems or questions. I don't think the other thread should seem too disjointed by moving these. :huh:
 

SubLGT

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Re: Prime / Prime Pro. Every Day Carry Lights.

...Take the chance. LL Bean has always taken back their products at any point. I know people who have returned 10 year old shoes because they were worn out. LL Bean gives them a new pair, no charge. ...

I have bought clothing from LL Bean, and am familiar with their pricing. I don't want to pay LL Bean prices for a flashlight. $160 for a Wizard Pro? No thanks.
 
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