I hope this doesn't become a trend

jaycee88

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Last night an oncoming vehicle seared my retinas with a pair of LED light bars. Not the first time it's happened to me, but as I passed the car - a first generation Miata with flip-up headlights - I saw that the light bars were mounted inside the flip-up pods. The light bars weren't being used in addition to the car's headlights, they WERE the car's headlights!

Maybe the driver had Acura envy....

My full-face helmet has an internal retractable smoked 'sun visor' that is operated by a lever. I normally never drop it down at night since it darkens everything, but I've found it helps cut down on excessive glare (e.g. from illegal headlights, high beams, etc.). It's been seeing more and more use lately.
 

Alaric Darconville

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Last night an oncoming vehicle seared my retinas with a pair of LED light bars. Not the first time it's happened to me, but as I passed the car - a first generation Miata with flip-up headlights - I saw that the light bars were mounted inside the flip-up pods. The light bars weren't being used in addition to the car's headlights, they WERE the car's headlights!
The stupid, it burns!

My full-face helmet has an internal retractable smoked 'sun visor' that is operated by a lever. I normally never drop it down at night since it darkens everything, but I've found it helps cut down on excessive glare (e.g. from illegal headlights, high beams, etc.). It's been seeing more and more use lately.

Just close one of your eyes* instead. You need to be able to see quickly without taking your hand off the handlebar once the offending car passes.

*​In training we were supposed to close our firing eye every time.
 

lespaul1021

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Wow I have several trucks/SUV's around where I live which operate their 50" LED light bars in traffic or 4 of those 20w cube LEDs but have yet to see someone use them in place of proper headlamps.

Personally I don't mind if people use them on rural roads as aux. high beams( even though the tend to flood the foreground and ruin distance vision at night) because at least then they aren't blinding everyone else on the road. However it seems that most of the people who have the LED bars think they are for use in traffic. I guess the only "research" they do is to get recommendations from other ignorants on their favorite truck forum.

Also I use the method Alaric mentioned of closing one eye to preserve your eyes night adaptation after reading he recommended it in a previous thread and it helps immensely. I told my gf to do the same thing since she seems particularly sensitive to nighttime glare and she feels safer at night so I must sincerely thank you Alaric!
 

Alaric Darconville

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Also I use the method Alaric mentioned of closing one eye to preserve your eyes night adaptation after reading he recommended it in a previous thread and it helps immensely. I told my gf to do the same thing since she seems particularly sensitive to nighttime glare and she feels safer at night so I must sincerely thank you Alaric!

Don't thank ME, thank my RECRUITER! (Standard Drill Sergeant line if a trainee ever thanked him)
 

mick238

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I haven't seen many people driving with led light bars on the road, not sure I can think of any actually. Aren't those labeled as off-road use?

Ill have to give that one eye closed trick a try next time I'm out and someone is blinding me, never thought to close one.
 

fastgun

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mick,
"I haven't seen many people driving with led light bars on the road, not sure I can think of any actually. Aren't those labeled as off-road use?"

The question is if these are auxiliary lights or replacement of original equipment. If it is not original equipment, NHTSA says they fall under state law. The NHTSA explains to the Robert Bosch Corporation about the Feds understanding of FMVSS Interpretations. They state, "Standard No. 108 applies only to replacement of equipment that was originally mounted on the vehicle to enable it to comply with the requirements of the standard. It does not apply to items not covered by the standard, but which are frequently provided as new vehicle options, such as fog lamps and cornering lamps. Any item of lighting equipment not required is permissible to be installed, as you also noted,"
 
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-Virgil-

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The question is if these are auxiliary lights or replacement of original equipment.

That question is answered in the first post of this thread. The car that inspired the post had its original headlamps removed and replaced by inappropriate light bars.
 

fastgun

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I was addressing the off-road question by mick238, but even so, this is a matter of state law. Looking through The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) Interpretation Files we find letters from that department's Chief Counsel explaining Federal regulations concerning lights, car parts and other related items. These letters explain to the public how the NHTSA understands Federal law and regulations.

In a 1987 NHTSA letter to Mr. Richard F. Anderson, Regional Manager Phoenix Products Company, Inc. Milwaukee, WI, Chief Counsel of the NHTSA Erica Jones, states, "Once a vehicle has been sold to its initial purchaser, the safety standards no longer apply. The only restriction that pertains to it is that any modification performed by a manufacturer, dealer, distributor, or motor vehicle repair business must not render inoperative in whole or in part any device or element of design installed pursuant to a Federal motor vehicle safety standard."

In 2008 the Chief Counsel of the NHTSA, wrote to James A. Haigh, Vice President, Technical Specifications & Application Development, Transpec Worldwide, about a device they wanted to market. He explains that it is illegal to certain entities under Federal law 49 U.S.C. 30122, but not for the vehicle owner. The Chief Counsel writes, "We note that § 30122 applies only to manufacturers, dealers, distributors, and motor vehicle repair businesses. Therefore, if an electronic message board, such as the Merge Alert, is installed by a vehicle owner, without assistance from a manufacturer, distributor, dealer, or motor vehicle repair business, the owner is not violating Federal law if (s)he installs it and uses it." Anthony M. Cooke, Chief Counsel, U.S. Department of Transportation, NHTSA, 4/8/08

In a 1993 letter to Bob Dittert, Trooper, Texas Department of Public Safety, the Chief Counsel of the NHTSA answers Trooper Dittert questions about various changes that are commonly done by automobile owners. The Chief Counsel of the NHTSA responded in part by stating, "Under S108(a)(1)(A) of the Safety Act, no person shall manufacture or sell a new motor vehicle or new item of motor vehicle equipment that does not meet all applicable FMVSS's." " …The prohibition in S108(a)(1)(A) against selling complying vehicles and items of equipment does not apply to a vehicle or item of equipment after its first sale to a consumer," "... Please note that the "render inoperative" provision of section 108(a)(2)(A) does not apply to actions by individual vehicle owners."

Later in this letter and in direct response to the Trooper's question, "Concerning the installation of non-complying automotive equipment, i.e., sun screening, tail lamp 'black out' lenses, neon license plate lamps, etc., is this allowed by the owner but prohibited installation by a commercial entity?" The answer given by the Chief Counsel, "You are correct that S108(a)(2)(A) of the Safety Act regulates the modifications of only the commercial entities listed in that section of the Act, and that the Safety Act does not prohibit an individual from modifying his or her vehicle such that it no longer complies with the FMVSS's. The States may have requirements governing the modification of a vehicle by individual owners." John Womack Acting Chief Counsel, May 5, 1993

In a 1996 response to R. Wender, P.O. Box 456, Flushing, NY, the Chief Counsel of the NHTSA wrote, "Because of the potential of a flashing CHMSL to cause confusion with the pair of steady-burning stop lamps mounted lower on each side of the vehicle, it is our opinion that the installation of the aftermarket CHMSL would make the regular stop lamps partially inoperative within the meaning of the prohibition. The prohibition does not apply if the modifications to a vehicle are done by its owner, and you would not be in violation of the Federal statute if you personally installed the CHMSL. However, whether it is legal to use it depends upon the law of the state where the CHMSL is operated." Samuel J. Dubbin Chief Counsel, ref:108 d:6/6/96

In 1995, the Chief Counsel explains very clearly the NHTSA's understanding of FMVSS's and other NHTSA regulations. This response is to Mr. Donald T. Hoy, Senior Marketing Manager, Clean Air Partners. The "make inoperative" provision does not apply to individual vehicle owners who alter their own vehicles. Thus, under our requirements, individual owners may install any item of motor vehicle equipment regardless of its effect on compliance with the FMVSS's. However, NHTSA encourages vehicle owners not to degrade the safety of their vehicles. Philip R. Recht, Chief Counsel ref:303, dated:2/27/95

As recent as 2015, in an explanation to Mr. Alan Napier, of Earl Stewart Toyota in Lake Park, Florida, the NHTSA explains, " that applied to your inquiry, because of this statutory requirement, no person can legally sell or offer for sale a new vehicle that had been repaired if the new vehicle does not comply with all applicable FMVSSs. However, once a vehicle is sold and delivered to its first retail purchaser, the vehicle is no longer required by Federal law to comply with the FMVSS's." O. Kevin Vincent, Chief Counsel, Ref: 49 USC Sec. 30122, Dated: 4/17/15

All of these official responses and many….many more may be found at http://isearch.nhtsa(dot)gov
 

DIWdiver

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Holy ____!

This is a very different reading of things than I have never done before.

Does this mean that all the stupid, dangerous, illegal, stupid, and dangerous mods that I have previously thought to be illegal are, in fact, perfectly legal if they performed by the owner of the vehicle rather than by a (language previously specified)? I get that selling the parts necessary may still be illegal, but that's aiming at a moving target.

Please help! I don't want to believe this!!!
 
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calflash

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What I got from that info is that the federal government just isn't applying/enforcing the FMVSS to owner made changes. Each state will be the agency enforcing it's vehicle code to control an owner's modifications... so many upgrades may still fall into an illegal category. It seems however, that the less specific the state vehicle code is, the more goofy "upgrades" there will be.
 
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sadtimes

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If you have LED light bars (turned on of course), HID kits, flashing CHMSL, etc, I will introduce myself to you. And we probably will meet again about a month later, in court.
 

FRITZHID

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What I got from that info is that the federal government just isn't applying/enforcing the FMVSS to owner made changes. Each state will be the agency enforcing it's vehicle code to control an owner's modifications... so many upgrades may still fall into an illegal category. It seems however, that the less specific the state vehicle code is, the more goofy "upgrades" there will be.

And along with that, something that I've run into before, is owners having registration in a "lax" state (like FL) so they can get away with excessive modifications. (I.e. Very dark window tinting, HID mods, light bars, ground effects, etc.)

This as been an issue in several states I've lived in. Cars registered in states that don't enforce OR have applicable laws being driven in other states in effort to skirt local laws.
 

mick238

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So that is pretty crazy. I had no idea this is how the law was interpreted. After reading all those responses it seems they have stayed consistent in how they view it though.


mick,
"I haven't seen many people driving with led light bars on the road, not sure I can think of any actually. Aren't those labeled as off-road use?"

The question is if these are auxiliary lights or replacement of original equipment. If it is not original equipment, NHTSA says they fall under state law. The NHTSA explains to the Robert Bosch Corporation about the Feds understanding of FMVSS Interpretations. They state, "Standard No. 108 applies only to replacement of equipment that was originally mounted on the vehicle to enable it to comply with the requirements of the standard. It does not apply to items not covered by the standard, but which are frequently provided as new vehicle options, such as fog lamps and cornering lamps. Any item of lighting equipment not required is permissible to be installed, as you also noted,"
 

fastgun

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My state allows amber brake lights, blue dot taillights, ground effects, blacked out taillight, ATVs in town limits and flashing CHMSL. But not window tinting!! We have the liberty to do just about anything and still be legal. Yet, very few vehicles are ever altered from factory standard. My guess is that the just about same percent of vehicles are altered here as in the strictest of states. Based on personal experience in life, most people want to be safe and courteous drivers. A contributing factor is the commercial sector in my area is mostly knowledgeable and keep up to date. I suspect most know that Federal law provides that a "manufacturer, distributor, dealer, or motor vehicle repair business" may not modify a vehicle so that it no longer conforms to Standard No. 108.
 

fastgun

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If you have LED light bars (turned on of course), HID kits, flashing CHMSL, etc, I will introduce myself to you. And we probably will meet again about a month later, in court.

You are to be commended for your enforcements efforts. You have your work cut out for ya brother. I do believe SC has the largest traffic code in the US. But, you may have some cover with "Heien v NC".

Does SC have a specific code for CHMSL that pulse/flash?
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Does SC have a specific code for CHMSL that pulse/flash?
I'mma let drmalenko finish, but:
SC Code § 56-5-4730 (2015) said:
2015 South Carolina Code of Laws
Title 56 - Motor Vehicles
CHAPTER 5 - UNIFORM ACT REGULATING TRAFFIC ON HIGHWAYS
Section 56-5-4730. Signal lamps and signal devices.

A stop lamp shall be plainly visible and understandable from a distance of one hundred feet to the rear both during normal sunlight and at nighttime and a signal lamp or lamps indicating intention to turn shall be visible and understandable during daytime and nighttime from a distance of one hundred feet both to the front and rear. When a vehicle is equipped with a stop lamp or other signal lamps, such lamp or lamps shall at all times be maintained in good working condition. No stop lamp or signal lamp shall project a glaring or dazzling light.
So, the flashing CHMSL is not "understandable" because stop lamps do not flash except by direct action by the driver -- and then ALL of them flash at the same time. The unsynched lighting and occulting of the CHMSL with the rest of the stop lamps makes it not a stop lamp, but rather a random flashing red light. An 'impersonation' charge could well be the result of this unsanctioned flashing red lamp.
 
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-Virgil-

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This is a very different reading of things

That's exactly what it is.

Does this mean

It means that even when regulators explain the regulations and laws in what looks like plain, simple, unambiguous language, it still often doesn't mean what it looks like it means to a casual reader.

It is possible (in fact it's easy) to find language in Federal and state codes that looks, to the uninformed reader, like it permits all kinds of unsafe vehicle modifications. Usually this is a misunderstanding that can be dispelled when all of the relevant provisions of all of the relevant statutes and regulations are taken account of. It often takes a pretty comprehensive structural knowledge to be able to do so, because the apposite provisions that interact with each other nevertheless tend to be scattered around in different locations, sometimes widely different locations.
 

fastgun

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Virgil is correct. Federal regulation can be a complex quagmire. This is one reason I appreciate the NHTSA. After wading through the swamp and having looked in all the nooks and crannies they put out for public consumption these clear-cut interpretations so we don't have to. It is refreshing to see a bureaucracy go to these efforts to assure the public correctly understands the law.

We see an example of this in Chief Counsel Frank Seales when he carefully explains the difference in regulated and non-regulated parties. "… Federal law provides that a "manufacturer, distributor, dealer, or motor vehicle repair business" may not modify a vehicle so that it no longer conforms to Standard No. 108. Installation of a device by one of these four entities that causes a CHMSL to flash would create a noncompliance with Standard No. 108, and therefore be a violation of 49 U.S.C. 30122. A civil penalty of up to $1,100 per violation could be imposed, up to $880,000 for a related series of violations. Please note that a vehicle owner does not violate Federal law if (s) he installs the device, but the legality of its use remains subject to state and local laws." Sincerely, Frank Seales, Jr., Chief Counsel, ref:108. 9/27/99
 

asoomal

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I don't even know where to begin... *Major Cringe Alert*

So we're all familiar with people who throw HID/LED "retrofit" kits in their stock halogen systems, people who paint their reflectors to match their vehicles, etc.

I came across this video and could not stop cringing, I was barely able to finish watching it.

For those who aren't able to view it for some reason, a group of guys decide to remove their 7" sealed beam lamps and replace it with 2 smaller parabolic reflector lamps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YbWPZtu_Mao&nohtml5=False


Enjoy :green:

Edit: And no, I do not condone any of this.
 
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