Jetbeam        
Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 205

Thread: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

  1. #1

    Default Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Elon Musk at recent investor conference:
    "At the annual shareholder meeting on May 31, Tesla announced that its battery output potential could triple to nearly 105 gigawatt-hours of battery cells and gigawatt hours of battery packs for energy storage. Combined, that is nearly three times the total production of lithium ion batteries in the entire world. Musk also noted that the battery plant will also be updating the form factor of its existing cylindrical Li-ion cell that carries a 18 mm diameter and 65 mm height better known as an 18650 to a larger diameter and taller 20700 cell (20 mm dia x 70 mm height).”
    Should be an interesting future we approach.

    full link:
    http://cleantechnica.com/2016/06/06/...yst-estimates/

  2. #2
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Vilnius, Lithuania
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Funny. They are going to produce batteries that are useless to us.

  3. #3
    MAD777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    3,114

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Oh wow! I thought it was going to be 26650 size! I was hoping it would be and that 26650 flashlights would benefit from all the R&D.

  4. #4
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    3,199

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    A photo`s worth a thousand words (Ugh did i really say that)



    John.
    SkyRC MC3000 - 2xMaha C9000 - LaCrosse BC-900 - Floureon BT-C3100 V2.2 - Accumanger 10 and 20 -Thunder AC6
    LiitoKala Lii-100 - Cozypony 24W Solar Panel - Soshine H4 - Soshine T2 - Soshine E4S

  5. #5
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Norcal
    Posts
    2,170

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by MAD777 View Post
    Oh wow! I thought it was going to be 26650 size! I was hoping it would be and that 26650 flashlights would benefit from all the R&D.
    That's what I thought, too. I would think that larger cells would reduce cost by decreasing the number of connections and cell compartments, as well as by simplifying battery management.

  6. #6
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    3,199

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Why are they going for cylindrical cells, would hexagonal cells pack more in the same space, or do they need a slight gap for cooling?



    John.
    Last edited by TinderBox (UK); 06-08-2016 at 02:32 AM.
    SkyRC MC3000 - 2xMaha C9000 - LaCrosse BC-900 - Floureon BT-C3100 V2.2 - Accumanger 10 and 20 -Thunder AC6
    LiitoKala Lii-100 - Cozypony 24W Solar Panel - Soshine H4 - Soshine T2 - Soshine E4S

  7. #7

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Tbh it doesnot matter what kind of battery size they end up going with since they're making them from scratch, while their strategy is plausible i feel like its the kind of thing one brings up in a stakeholder meeting and press-releases to justify spending and progress.

    ^John has a valid point, there is empty space that accounts for 10-15% of the volume, these batteries need very less heatsinking (if any at all) if they can get 1.33x capacity this way, they could definitely get another 0.33x by just filling up this empty space.

    A typical 18650 (INR) is on average 3000mAh and 20700 should only be 4000mAh.. if you fill the empty space you can bump this up to 5000mAh.. then why not?
    thehostshop@gmail.com

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Sampson Flat, Sth. Aust.
    Posts
    1,090

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Funny. They are going to produce batteries that are useless to us.
    Anyone else see the day soon when the first 20700 light gets designed? Probably 5 years time when the patent expires. 🤔

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Vilnius, Lithuania
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Latest Tesla fire in Norway (caught fire at charging post, no people were inside when it burst into flames; destroyed completely in minutes):

    Last edited by vadimax; 06-08-2016 at 03:38 AM.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Location
    Vilnius, Lithuania
    Posts
    1,245

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Some Tesla hacking:


  11. #11

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by sinner-cpf View Post
    Tbh it doesnot matter what kind of battery size they end up going with since they're making them from scratch, while their strategy is plausible i feel like its the kind of thing one brings up in a stakeholder meeting and press-releases to justify spending and progress.

    ^John has a valid point, there is empty space that accounts for 10-15% of the volume, these batteries need very less heatsinking (if any at all) if they can get 1.33x capacity this way, they could definitely get another 0.33x by just filling up this empty space.

    A typical 18650 (INR) is on average 3000mAh and 20700 should only be 4000mAh.. if you fill the empty space you can bump this up to 5000mAh.. then why not?
    All of you are just guessing. For example, the Tesla battery packs are liquid cooled. A 10-second search on the internet will bring up a number of articles. Also, batteries are engineered to their final dimensions.There are not determined by some face-saving board meeting prank. Where do you guys get all of this disinformation. This is one big gossip column.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    884

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Latest Tesla fire in Norway (caught fire at charging post, no people were inside when it burst into flames; destroyed completely in minutes):

    Ouch! Now that's having a bad day.

  13. #13
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    894

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Tesla just hired a new employee:

    Tesla Motors [NASDAQ: TSLA] has a new powerhouse in the world of lithium-ion battery research joining the team. Quartz* reports that: "Jeff Dahn, a leading battery researcher who teaches at Dalhousie University in Nova Scotia, will go on an exclusive contract with Tesla Motors on June 8... And Dahn says he is arriving with marching orders to do 'whatever it takes' to improve the company’s battery performance."
    According to his bio, "Jeff Dahn is recognized as one of the pioneering developers of the lithium-ion battery... [and] is the author of over 500 refereed journal papers and co-inventor of 58 inventions with patents issued or filed."


    https://evannex.com/blogs/news/11795...ry-performance


    http://qz.com/690936/teslas-newest-h...out-batteries/

  14. #14

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Love the picture above. Looks like a scene out of a Batman movie.
    EDC: ZL H52w, H502w

    The only useful tool is the one you have with you when you need it.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Sounds a bit like a desperate plan by someone to "improve" the bottom line. If their manufacturing equipment that makes batteries is limited to this new size of battery without major work on it then I guess I can see why they would do this but if they have to make all new equipment to accommodate the larger cell size then why not go to 22800 or even larger? The only savings I can see is they can use less cells to get the same amount of power but the less cells may not take up any less size perhaps even more size when they are grouped together as the holes between cells I believe will be larger and the cells are taller too. I don't think that other battery makers are going to copy this size if they don't get a contract making batteries for them as larger cells will only make laptop and drill battery packs larger as they are built around certain voltages and eliminating batteries to make a taller wider but not necessarily longer pack isn't going to be worth it. Looking at all my 18650 based devices... flashlights and power banks and such I don't see a larger diameter more comfortable a fit.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* Poppy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Northern New Jersey
    Posts
    4,342

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    doing the math... pie r squared x length in mm and we get:

    18650 = 16,532 mm cubed
    20700 = 21,980 mm cubed
    26650 = 34,492 mm cubed

    therefore using their conjecture, we should be seeing about 2X capacity of 3400 mah 18650s in 26650s, or about 7,000 mah 26650s.

    I think the reputable 26650s go up to about 4800 mah.
    I think only UltraFire brand makes 7,000 maybe 7,200 mah ones hehehe.
    My Grand Kids call me Poppy

  17. #17
    MAD777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    3,114

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Volume ratios do not match performance ratios. It's true that a 26650 is twice the volume of an 18650 battery, but it's energy in watt-hours is only 1.6 times as much.

    The industry put all its R&D efforts into the 18650 battery. As a result, all other form factors do not produce the energy per size that the 18650 does.

    This is why many of us were hoping for Tesla to go to 26650 as that would presumably result in industry improvements in its efficiency, which would trickle down to flashlights.

  18. #18
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    243

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I watched the whole 3 1/2 hour presentation of the Tesla Stockholders Meeting in which Elon Musk and their CTO JB Straubel described all the details of their history. The 18650 battery they use is not like the 18650 we can buy from Panasonic. It is specialized for their application. The following discussion on the Tesla Forum may be interesting.

    https://forums.teslamotors.com/forum...ery-discussion
    Last edited by billcushman; 06-08-2016 at 02:19 PM.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    3,199

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I have seen a used Tesla battery pack on eBay for a couple of thousand dollars.

    Also i have seen those small nuclear battery`s that use a decking isotope to produce power.

    John.
    SkyRC MC3000 - 2xMaha C9000 - LaCrosse BC-900 - Floureon BT-C3100 V2.2 - Accumanger 10 and 20 -Thunder AC6
    LiitoKala Lii-100 - Cozypony 24W Solar Panel - Soshine H4 - Soshine T2 - Soshine E4S

  20. #20
    MAD777's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2015
    Location
    South Florida
    Posts
    3,114

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by TinderBox (UK) View Post
    Also i have seen those small nuclear battery`s that use a decking isotope to produce power.

    John.
    Oh please don't tell Vinh that there are nuclear batteries! LOL

  21. #21
    Flashaholic
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Houston TX
    Posts
    243

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    This is an interesting discussion about the Tesla Battery.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbVpPSa6glA

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    England, United Kingdom
    Posts
    3,199

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Great video, over 7000 18650 cells in the car power pack, But will we CPF ever see the improvements in battery capacity that Tesla make or will it be a guarded secret, now they are making their own 20700 cells in the US.

    John.

    Quote Originally Posted by billcushman View Post
    This is an interesting discussion about the Tesla Battery.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbVpPSa6glA
    SkyRC MC3000 - 2xMaha C9000 - LaCrosse BC-900 - Floureon BT-C3100 V2.2 - Accumanger 10 and 20 -Thunder AC6
    LiitoKala Lii-100 - Cozypony 24W Solar Panel - Soshine H4 - Soshine T2 - Soshine E4S

  23. #23
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    894

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Lynx_Arc View Post
    ...I don't think that other battery makers are going to copy this size if they don't get a contract making batteries for them as larger cells will only make laptop and drill battery packs larger as they are built around certain voltages and eliminating batteries to make a taller wider but not necessarily longer pack isn't going to be worth it. Looking at all my 18650 based devices... flashlights and power banks and such I don't see a larger diameter more comfortable a fit.
    I can see the 20700 size working well in battery packs for yard equipment, such as mowers, string trimmers, hedge trimmers, etc.

  24. #24
    Flashaholic* stephenk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    540

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Given the rate at which flashaholics buy new lights and cells, then even if the 20700s reach the flashlight market and 20700 flashlights start to be produced, it is probably not a major issue?

  25. #25

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    20700 are available from chinese manufacturers for quite a long time.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk


  27. #27
    Flashaholic* stephenk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Brisbane, Australia
    Posts
    540

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    So we'll be seeing a 13,333mAh Ultrafire 20700 then?

  28. #28
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,390

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Thank you for those who provided excellent links on battery technology.

  29. #29
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1,067

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    The ~10% increase to the 18650 size is not unique to Tesla, e.g. last year Samsung SDI announced a 4750mAh 21700 cell (vs. Telsa 20700) targeting the e-bike market, see below

    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-09-2016 at 09:39 AM.

  30. #30
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    4,232

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I wonder if 20700 becomes the new standard if this really takes off.
    Though we have many valleys to travel and mountains to climb, by nature we are inclined to fear the unknown. Life rewards those of us who accept the call to go where we have never been even when we, seemingly, have to go there alone.

Page 1 of 7 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •