RofisLight        
Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 91 to 120 of 205

Thread: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

  1. #91

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    Am looking forward to testing the new Tesla round cells. But there is also new e-car battery technology made in gemani going into licensed mass production

    http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/e...a-1097291.html

    By "made in gemani" I guess you meant "made in Germany", but Kreisel Electric is actually "made in Austria".
    They are not making a new battery cell technology, but just a new patented liquid (electrically nonconductive) based thermal management technology for battery packs. They don't make their own battery cells, but just pack conventional off-the-shelf 18650 li-ion battery cells into their own battery packs with their own battery management system and their own own patented thermal management technology that keeps a constant cell temperaure ~ 25 °C. All their battery packs are cable of being quick charged 0-80% in 18 minutes and 0-100% in 28 minutes.
    They are buling a battery factory which is supposed to be finished in March 2017. But it is only planned to build batteries for 8000 vehicles annually with up to 70 employees, but the capacity can easily be doubled or quadrupled according to the article. But that's still not numbers that will change much and and the article doesn't say that they are going into licensed mass production, but just says that they are don't want to go into mass production themselves, so if any car manufacturer is interested in that they have to license the technology and start their own mass production.

    http://www.kreiselelectric.com/en/te.../battery-pack/

    ACTIVE THERMAL MANAGEMENT

    Kreisel Electric battery cells feature a patented casing that is constantly flushed with liquid. This means that combined with a heat pump, the battery can be heated or cooled very efficiently. This significantly increases range and service life as a result.

  2. #92
    Flashaholic* Overclocker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Philippines
    Posts
    1,556

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk


  3. #93

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I am not sure why the cell is labeled Sanyo. The NCR20700A and NCR20700B are sold under Panasonic label, geman dealer has it and also sells flashlights:

    http://akkuplus.de/PANASONIC-Industrial-Europe-GmbH

  4. #94
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    4,230

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    actually it would be cool to get 20mm li-ion cell for my surefires / malkoffs, drastically increasing runtime. I would need aftermarket bodies (FiveMega, here I come)
    Though we have many valleys to travel and mountains to climb, by nature we are inclined to fear the unknown. Life rewards those of us who accept the call to go where we have never been even when we, seemingly, have to go there alone.

  5. #95
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    881

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    I am not sure why the cell is labeled Sanyo. The NCR20700A and NCR20700B are sold under Panasonic label...
    The 20700B looks interesting, for flashlight use:

    rated capacity: 4000mAh
    typical capacity: 4250mAh
    discharge: 8A

    http://akkuplus.de/Panasonic-NCR-207...Ion-LiNiCoALO2

  6. #96

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by kreisl View Post
    I am not sure why the cell is labeled Sanyo. The NCR20700A and NCR20700B are sold under Panasonic label, geman dealer has it and also sells flashlights:

    http://akkuplus.de/PANASONIC-Industrial-Europe-GmbH
    The NCR18650B cells are sold under both the Panasonic and Sanyo brands, so I guess it will be no different with their NCR20700 cells, since Panasonic owns Sanyo.
    Under the Panasonic brand they are green with a large top and under the Sanyo brand they are red.
    Last edited by PH1; 07-23-2016 at 03:35 PM.

  7. #97

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    So Musk is going to build his own factory for producing these cells? Cannot help but feel a sense of foreboding here. I am now finally seeing plenty of Teslas on the roads here around D.C. man they are nice. They are incredibly fast to boot.

    I wonder what is inside my Ryobi 40 volt battery packs for my 40 volt yard tools? They do nothing but kick rear end and easily meet gas power without the hassle of gas. My 40 volt trimmer edger I have had for over 4 years and have beat the hell out of it yet it still charges and goes. It finally started to lose capacity noticed so I bought the expensive 5 amp hour 40 volt Ryobi pack and MAN!! It is like I gave my 40 volt Ryobi tools a huge boost of steroids. I wonder what is inside it?

  8. #98

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by CelticCross74 View Post
    So Musk is going to build his own factory for producing these cells? Cannot help but feel a sense of foreboding here. I am now finally seeing plenty of Teslas on the roads here around D.C. man they are nice. They are incredibly fast to boot.

    I wonder what is inside my Ryobi 40 volt battery packs for my 40 volt yard tools? They do nothing but kick rear end and easily meet gas power without the hassle of gas. My 40 volt trimmer edger I have had for over 4 years and have beat the hell out of it yet it still charges and goes. It finally started to lose capacity noticed so I bought the expensive 5 amp hour 40 volt Ryobi pack and MAN!! It is like I gave my 40 volt Ryobi tools a huge boost of steroids. I wonder what is inside it?
    Most tool packs have 18650s in them the 18/20v ones have sets of 5 or layers of them 1 layer for the thin packs 2 layers for the thicker ones if they are 5 Ahr then they have 2500mah 18650s x 2 sets. Yard tools have 10 batteries in series for 40v and if they are big enough possibly 2 sets or 20 batteries. I'm almost sure your 5A 40v Ryobi packs are 2x10 2500mah 18650 batteries (20 pcs).
    Last edited by Lynx_Arc; 07-24-2016 at 01:52 PM.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  9. #99
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Maryland, Near DC, USA
    Posts
    6,176

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I had no idea they were using cylindrical cells in the first place. They're probably more crash-worthy than flat LiPo cells are, because the metal casing is hard to puncture and a fire is unlikely to spread.

  10. #100

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    I had no idea they were using cylindrical cells in the first place. They're probably more crash-worthy than flat LiPo cells are, because the metal casing is hard to puncture and a fire is unlikely to spread.
    Many reasons why they use cylindrical cells. One reason it that they hold a higher pressure and do not swell like LIPO cells.

  11. #101
    *Flashaholic* fyrstormer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Maryland, Near DC, USA
    Posts
    6,176

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Well yes, that's based on the same structural integrity that makes them more crash-worthy too.

  12. #102

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    Well yes, that's based on the same structural integrity that makes them more crash-worthy too.
    If one thinks about it you see more cylinders in the market than squares in all sorts of products like beverages, canned food, etc and the reason for this is two fold in that you don't have to try and align machinery to deal with squares and also deal with corners of them in production plus devices that use them if they were all squares making flashlights to use square cells would get more expensive as you probably couldn't turn them on a lathe easily. If you think about it you don't hardly see any square batteries in many chemistries out there in the single cell variety only batteries that have several cells in them are square these days (like 9v, and 6v lantern batteries) and even these have round cell inside of them. I would like to see prismatic cells cheaper than cylindrical ones and see a common size/shape of them such that people will start making products to use them across the board as the prismatic cells are way too many sizes and shapes and I think even times the ones that are supposed to be the same size/shape..... aren't exactly. It may be possible that a breakthrough in batteries comes with one that doesn't have to be concerned about the chemicals wanting to leak in use and also when used up and/or aging a lot and if this breakthrough happens then we could even see flexible "bag" type batteries that you can make fit into a similar volume/size holding container.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  13. #103
    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Miami, Florida
    Posts
    4,543

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Here's a recent article about a 'tour' of the new Gigafactory.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-36893104

    "We had just had a tour of the new Gigafactory, Tesla's $5bn (£3.8bn) 3,200-acre battery-manufacturing plant that has already begun production but will not be in full swing until about 2020.

    At that point, it will have the largest physical footprint of any building in the world.

    By making battery cells here, Mr Musk hopes he will be able to innovate faster and cut out about 30% of the cost.

    The factory is a tie-up with the company that already makes Tesla's cells, Panasonic."

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  14. #104
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Ca
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    Like somebody said above, power tools are the new laptops for cylindrical cells, IMO.

    It used to be draws drills, saws and lights that used battery packs, but now we have blowers, weed whackers, hedgers and even lawn mowers.

    None of the tree-hugger hippies want gas any longer and 100 yard extension cords are too much work for the fatties, to roll up.

    Chris
    Or perhaps people have power yard tool needs beyond a 100' cords reach and/or don't want to deal with having to spend 1/2 your time managing the cord & just want to go use the tool like a gas version but even easier since there's no starter cord to pull(how many times?), no choke to manipulate & time to let the engine warm to have a stable idle, no hot exhaust to have to worry about brushing against & getting burned or perhaps starting a fire, no gas to have to tote around & refill & potentially spill, no gas to have to mix with 2 stroke oil & hope you use it up before it goes bad...etc.

    Both sets of power(Gas & Battery) have their place in the world. I personally have overall a small & highly infrequent "yard" power tool needs & being able to quickly, conveniently use battery yard power tools & not have to mess with oil changes, gas, 2 stroke mix, gummed up carbs from lack of use, etc has been refreshing. I tried it this year & was astonished at how well they worked relative to the power source.
    Travis

    Various Neutral Tinted/Hi CRI Goodness.

  15. #105
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Ca
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by etc View Post
    The environmental impact is the same as a gas car... because the hidden cost is you still have to charge it and use electricity and thus either coal or nuclear or something. It's just a hidden cost, plus the cost of recycling the battery.
    Depends on the region. Areas with hydro, geothermal, solar, or wind turbine electrical production have far lower over emission "costs" overall. Also as more higher efficiency & lower emission natural gas plants come online will help as well.
    Travis

    Various Neutral Tinted/Hi CRI Goodness.

  16. #106
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Ca
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Exactly. Ratio of a circle area to a touching square area is a constant value (π/4) no matter the size they are. Now we know who was kicking butts at school instead of studying

    There is another issue: generated heat is a function of volume, but dissipated heat is a function of surface area. That is the larger the battery the more it is prone to overheating. More of that, we have no idea about the ability of Li-Ion layers to transfer heat in lateral direction (from layer to layer). So, theoretically, a large battery may be relatively cold outside, but melting in its core.
    How does the larger capacity & therefore likely lower C discharge rate of the larger cell affect heat build-up? I would think that would offset that concern. Of course there will be less overall 20700 cells than 18650 cells so there will be a higher wattage draw per cell but I'm guessing the capacity increase will outweigh the increased current.
    Travis

    Various Neutral Tinted/Hi CRI Goodness.

  17. #107
    Flashaholic* Connor's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    524

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Seems it's not going to be 20700 cells after all:
    http://fortune.com/2016/07/27/tesla-...y-gigafactory/

    The king is dead, long live the 21-70.
    Last edited by Connor; 07-28-2016 at 10:04 AM.

  18. #108

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Connor View Post
    Seems it's not going to be 20700 cells after all:
    http://fortune.com/2016/07/27/tesla-...y-gigafactory/

    The king is dead, long live the 21-70.
    If this is true then you could replace 7 layers of 18650s with 6 layers of 21700 batteries and be about the same height.
    Fenix Split rings 1400+ sent, SWIVELS now available also!
    Psalm 112:4 Light shines in the darkness for the godly. They are generous, compassionate, and righteous.

  19. #109
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    881

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Interesting comments from Tesla about their battery choice:

    http://cleantechnica.com/2016/07/27/...ctory-opening/

    JB: “We’ve spent a lot of time on this actually. It’s kind of interesting. There are a bunch of tradeoffs. There are some things that get better when you make the cell size bigger, and some things that get worse. 18650 was sort of an accident of history. That was what was standardized for early products. So we revisited all of those tradeoffs and came to this size, which is quite a bit bigger. If you have them next to each other, the actual volume of materials inside is substantially more. And overall it’s about cost optimization.”

    Elon: “It really comes from the first principles of physics and economics. That’s the way we try to analyze everything. To say like if no cell existed in the world, what size should it be? What is the size that would achieve the product characteristics we’re looking for, but would be fundamentally optimal? 18650 is not optimal.”


  20. #110
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    881

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    From 20700 to 21700? Samsung will be happy to hear this.

    "...Samsung SDI also unveiled a battery pack product equipped with 21700-type batteries, noted for their upgraded energy capacity compared to previous cylindrical types. The 18650 battery, or rather the small cylindrical battery of 18mm diameter and 65mm length, has been in dominant use until recently. However, the creation of new battery applications has boosted the demand for high capacity batteries. In response, Samsung SDI has come up with a battery that has upgraded a maximum of 35% of energy volume, now known as the 21700 battery, and has successfully applied it onto e-bikes for the first in the world.
    The 21700 model can have various applications other than e-bike, such as in electric tools, laptops, and more. It is expected to become the new standard in small cylindrical battery usage…"

    http://www.greencarcongress.com/2015...6-samsung.html

  21. #111
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    1,390

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk


  22. #112
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Ca
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I'm all for the best engineered size cell rather than the "what we have been using for a long time so it's a standard" cell.

    So many "standards" throughout our lives are based on archaic & now obsolete/irrelevant platforms that for w/e reason aren't brushed away in favor of the new.

    This will also have a positive trickle down effect on all sorts of battery powered high drain devices & create the opportunity for new battery powered devices to come to fruition.
    Travis

    Various Neutral Tinted/Hi CRI Goodness.

  23. #113
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    881

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    http://electrek.co/2016/07/28/tesla-...-factory-ever/

    Excerpt:

    "...When it was my turn, I asked the status of the “20700” battery that has been reported to be going into Model 3…….


    • They actually changed the size to 21mm diameter and a 70mm height. They also got rid of the trailing ‘0’ so the name of the battery that will be going into the Model 3 is the ’21-70′
    • JB Straubel says Tesla developed this battery this size by starting without preconceived notions. They then optimized for efficiency, size and output. The 18650 standard was called an accident of history though it had served Tesla and others well. Tesla says it predicts that this new 21-70 battery size will become a new standard.
    • The half centimeter height increase for the car packs would be offset with more efficient battery packaging which will make the packs actually the same thickness or less than current packs and obviously with a higher energy density….."

  24. #114
    Enlightened Drift Monkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Austin, TX
    Posts
    91

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    http://electrek.co/2016/07/28/tesla-...-factory-ever/

    Excerpt:

    "...When it was my turn, I asked the status of the “20700” battery that has been reported to be going into Model 3…….


    • They actually changed the size to 21mm diameter and a 70mm height. They also got rid of the trailing ‘0’ so the name of the battery that will be going into the Model 3 is the ’21-70′
    • JB Straubel says Tesla developed this battery this size by starting without preconceived notions. They then optimized for efficiency, size and output. The 18650 standard was called an accident of history though it had served Tesla and others well. Tesla says it predicts that this new 21-70 battery size will become a new standard.
    • The half centimeter height increase for the car packs would be offset with more efficient battery packaging which will make the packs actually the same thickness or less than current packs and obviously with a higher energy density….."
    Your precious 20770 is DEAD!

  25. #115
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Stockholm.Sweden
    Posts
    636

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Double post.
    Last edited by Anders; 07-29-2016 at 11:19 AM.

  26. #116
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Stockholm.Sweden
    Posts
    636

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    - Christina Lampe-Önnerud at Cadenza Innovation-"”Elon Musk and I are actually of the same opinion when it comes to small units. But while his idea was to take laptop batteries, put them together in a trough and add the safety on the outside, we’ve placed everything within an aluminum container.”"

    http://nordic.businessinsider.com/th...-by-70-2016-7/

  27. #117
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Northern Virginia
    Posts
    4,230

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    I cannot wait to put one in 6P with an aftermarket body. The body will be as big as the head.
    Though we have many valleys to travel and mountains to climb, by nature we are inclined to fear the unknown. Life rewards those of us who accept the call to go where we have never been even when we, seemingly, have to go there alone.

  28. #118

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    The ~10% increase to the 18650 size is not unique to Tesla, e.g. last year Samsung SDI announced a 4750mAh 21700 cell (vs. Telsa 20700) targeting the e-bike market, see below

    According from the latest press conference because of Tesla/Panasonic's grand opening of the Gigafactory today, they are going to use 21700 cells instead of 20700 cells like they previously said.
    I don't hope we will be seeing two new standards, both 20700 and 21700. Maybe it's just a matter of how they round off the numbers and they are all around 20.5 mm in diameter. Or maybe 20 mm is just the diameter without plastic shrink tube and 21 mm is the diameter with plastic shrink tube.

    http://insideevs.com/highlights-tesl...l-panasonic-vp
    Highlights From Tesla Gigafactory Press Conference Featuring Musk, Straubel, Panasonic VP

    Battery Format
    Straubel:
    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla CTO J.B. Straubel
    “We’ve spent a lot of time on this actually. It’s kind of interesting. There are a bunch of trade offs. There are some things that get better when you make the cell size bigger, and some things that get worse. 18-650 was sort of an accident of history. That was what was standardized for early products. So we revisited all of those trade offs and came to this size (21-70), which is quite a bit bigger. If you have them next to each other, the actual volume of materials inside is substantially more. And overall it’s about cost optimization.”
    Last edited by PH1; 09-06-2016 at 12:43 AM.

  29. #119
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Central Ca
    Posts
    1,046

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by PH1 View Post
    According from the latest press conference because of Tesla/Panasonics grand opening of the Gigafactory today, they are going to use 21700 cells instead of 20700 cells like they have already said.
    I don't hope we will be seeing two new standards, both 20700 and 21700. Maybe it's just a matter of how they round off the numbers and they are all around 21.5 mm in diameter. Or maybe 20 mm is just the diameter without plastic shrink tube and 21 mm is the diameter with plastic shrink tube.
    Or maybe the 20700 was a smokescreen to through off industrial espionage or enable better negotiations for some contract/deal/terms. Or maybe further testing & tech has came about recently that it's now feasible to employ the 21700 vs the 20700 design. Also perhaps the highly unanticipated demand gave them the freedom to commit more R&D money that helped make the change.
    Travis

    Various Neutral Tinted/Hi CRI Goodness.

  30. #120
    Flashaholic*
    Join Date
    Nov 2013
    Location
    Idaho, USA
    Posts
    881

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    The 20700B looks interesting, for flashlight use:

    rated capacity: 4000mAh
    typical capacity: 4250mAh
    discharge: 8A

    http://akkuplus.de/Panasonic-NCR-207...Ion-LiNiCoALO2
    The Samsung 21700 also looks good for flashlight use:

    4750 mAh
    9A max discharge

Page 4 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •