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Thread: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

  1. #181
    Flashaholic Enderman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    More about the BMZ battery pack using 21700 cells:
    So, this Sony/BMZ 21700 cell has 60% more capacity and 400% more discharge current than a 18650 cell. Sounds like a big upgrade to me.
    This is simply due to better manufacturing and battery improvements, there is nothing magical about the 21700 size.
    It's just a size between 18650 and 26650.
    If they used this improved manufacturing for 18650 or 26650 cells you would also see more capacity and higher discharge.

  2. #182

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by BU-301a
    There is talk about a new Li-ion cell format with dimensions of 20700, 21700 and 22700. Meanwhile, Tesla, Panasonic and Samsung have decided on the 21700 for ease of manufacturing, optimal capacity and other benefits. While the 18650 has a volume of 66cm3 with a capacity of around 3000mAh, the 97cm3 volume of the 2170(0) is said to produce a capacity of up to 6000mAh, essentially doubling the capacity with a 50% increase in volume. Tesla Motor refers to their company’s new 2170 as the “highest energy density cell that is also the cheapest.”
    a quote from BatteryUniversity.com book chapter.

    interesting.

    Also check out episode S01E03 of Good Behavior ... kinda tricky to find a refueling station
    Last edited by kreisl; 12-25-2016 at 05:31 PM.

  3. #183

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by TinderBox (UK) View Post
    Great video, over 7000 18650 cells in the car power pack, But will we CPF ever see the improvements in battery capacity that Tesla make or will it be a guarded secret, now they are making their own 20700 cells in the US.
    John.
    So how long is it going to take the typical CPFer to dis-assemble and test a used car power pack in order to cull out the good cells?

    Maybe make a group purchase and share the cell packs?


  4. #184
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Enderman View Post
    ... there is nothing magical about the 21700 size.
    It's just a size between 18650 and 26650...
    Is the 18650 size magical?

  5. #185
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    Is the 18650 size magical?
    There are many flashlights, other devices and universal holders currently made and available for this size.
    It will take several years for them to switch to new size if they find any significant improvement and lower cost.

  6. #186
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Production of 21700 cells has begun today, at the Gigafactory.
    https://www.tesla.com/blog/battery-c...ns-gigafactory

  7. #187
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    Is the 18650 size magical?
    Yes. Because of huge market of 1" gun mounts.

  8. #188
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    What battery format did he show?


  9. #189

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    As per http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...spite-setbacks:

    The battery cells are supplied by LG Chemical and use the forward-looking 21700 cells (as opposed to the more common 18650 cell), which Faraday Future said it expects to have the highest energy density of any in the auto industry.
    I think at this point we can safely assume that in less than a year 21700 will become the de facto standard for EVs.

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Yes. Because of huge market of 1" gun mounts.
    1" = 25.4 mm, which is still 4.4 mm wider. If a flashlight manufacturer opts to use a 21700 cell in a flashlight intended for potential gun mounting, I expect they take that into account and avoid bloating the battery tube. It's doable.
    Last edited by moozooh; 01-04-2017 at 06:44 PM.

  10. #190
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by moozooh View Post
    As per http://www.autonews.com/article/2017...spite-setbacks:



    I think at this point we can safely assume that in less than a year 21700 will become the de facto standard for EVs.
    ...
    Yup, and that means the cells will also migrate to other industrial uses.

    Maybe a new 21350 cell will eventually appear as the 18350 didn't make many inroads. A 21350 I'm sure would be a very nice cell format for flashlights.

  11. #191
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by moozooh View Post
    1" = 25.4 mm, which is still 4.4 mm wider. If a flashlight manufacturer opts to use a 21700 cell in a flashlight intended for potential gun mounting, I expect they take that into account and avoid bloating the battery tube. It's doable.
    It is not Having only 4.4 mm we should reserve 1 mm for protected/rewrapped cells. After that only 1.7 mm of wall thickness is left for knurling, threaded connection. Who on Earth would mount a light which body is foil thin and may be crushed with fingers?

  12. #192

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    It is not Having only 4.4 mm we should reserve 1 mm for protected/rewrapped cells. After that only 1.7 mm of wall thickness is left for knurling, threaded connection. Who on Earth would mount a light which body is foil thin and may be crushed with fingers?
    You're reasoning under the erroneous assumption that a 1" flashlight mount requires the entire battery tube, including the cap, to be 1" thick. This is simply not the case—only the small part that goes into the mount has that requirement. For the record, 1.7 mm is still a thicker wall than a typical laser scope has (last I checked). Some manufacturers of tactical flashlights also make their own mounts, so it's not a big deal either way.

  13. #193
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Tesla released this teaser style video a few days back. Pretty cool seeing what goes into battery production.

    https://www.facebook.com/tesla/videos/10154876472132801/


    Look at all those shiny 2170 cells *drools*

    Dave
    Last edited by Kirbz252; 01-05-2017 at 03:56 PM.

  14. #194
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quoted from https://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/news.html

    June 8, 2016
    NSERC, Dalhousie University and Tesla Motors have established the NSERC/Tesla Canada Industrial Research Chair that Jeff Dahn will hold from June 8, 2016 to June 7, 2021. It is possible that the Chair will be renewed in 2021. The goals of the Chair are to develop lithium ion batteries with longer lifetime, higher energy density and lower cost. As Dahn says, "Our goal is to do something useful, not publish papers in Nature and similar journals".
    The last sentence made me chuckle.

    So far, I have not seen any information from Tesla or Panasonic about the capacity of the 21-70 tesla cell, only the claim that it has the "highest energy density and lowest cost of any cell on the planet". The quantity of 5750mAh has been mentioned on forums, but no verification was provided.

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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    Quoted from https://www.dal.ca/diff/dahn/news.html



    The last sentence made me chuckle.

    So far, I have not seen any information from Tesla or Panasonic about the capacity of the 21-70 tesla cell, only the claim that it has the "highest energy density and lowest cost of any cell on the planet". The quantity of 5750mAh has been mentioned on forums, but no verification was provided.
    That last sentence is funny. LG has been claiming the same "highest energy density" for their 21700 battery as well. No details that I have found yet. I think we can just wait to see what is the energy of the next battery-pack that Tesla announces. That might be where the 5750mAh number is coming from I have not been following it that closely. Just waiting until I can actually get some batteries, but that might be a while.

  16. #196

    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Sorry, HKJ's review already posted

  17. #197
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    https://www.imrbatteries.com/sanyo-n...t-top-battery/

    Sanyo NCR20700A: 3100mAh, 30A, $10/unit
    Sanyo NCR20700B: 4000mAh, 15A, $10/unit
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  18. #198
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Popcorn Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk




  19. #199
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Samsung displayed their 21700 cell at the 2107 North American International Automobile Show, but did not provide technical details.

    https://electrek.co/2017/01/09/samsu...sla-panasonic/

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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by Overclocker View Post
    who wants another size

    Apparently, this 20650 size is being used in a Dewalt 20V battery pack. There is also a version rated at 4200mAh and 15A.
    Last edited by SubLGT; 01-15-2017 at 07:29 PM.

  21. #201
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Quote Originally Posted by SubLGT View Post
    Apparently, this 26650 size is being used in a Dewalt 20V battery pack. There is also a version rated at 4200mAh and 15A.
    Did you mean 26650 or 20650?

    I have one of the 20V packs I got for free sitting here to open up, but it's one of the smaller 2Ah/40W ones. I'm debating first if i should put it on my charger or drill first, or just strip it and avoid any possible damage to the devices. The chargers are pretty robust, so I might risk it, but I am interested to see what's inside although it is a smaller pack.

  22. #202
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Yes, a typo. Corrected.

    The tiny photo I saw of the 20650 20V Dewalt battery was for the 3.0Ah 5S1P pack. It's overall size was about half of the 20V Dewalt 18650 3.0Ah pack.

    If you scroll half way down the linked pdf document, you can see it:
    http://www.emove360.com/wp-content/u...onferences.pdf
    Last edited by SubLGT; 01-15-2017 at 07:42 PM.

  23. #203
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    Tesla R&D might be pursuing a higher voltage Li-ion cell. Jeff Dahn will be discussing it:

    http://www.internationalbatterysemin...tery-research/

    Surprising Chemistry in Li-Ion Cells
    Jeff DahnJeff Dahn, Ph.D., FRSC, Professor of Physics and Atmospheric Science, NSERC/Tesla Canada Industrial Research Chair, and Canada Research Chair, Dalhousie University
    "It is important to increase the operating voltage of NMC Li-ion cells to obtain higher energy density. However, the electrolyte reacts with the positive electrode at high voltage. Using simple experiments involving only pouch bags, we show that the products of these reactions are extremely harmful to the positive electrode. This talk demonstrates how these harmful reactions at the positive electrode can be virtually stopped, leading to superb NMC Li-ion cells that can operate at high potential."

  24. #204
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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    ...The success of Tesla and its Nevada-based Gigafactory facility has generated a lot of excitement in the LIB industry. Panasonic’s automobile battery sales are forecast to grow to $4 billion a year by March 2019, largely due to their partnership with Tesla.

    “We think the existing technology can still extend the energy density of LIBs by 20% to 30%,” Panasonic’s President Kazuhiro Tsuga said. “But there is a trade-off between energy density and safety. So, if you look for even more density, you have to think about additional safety technology as well. Solid-state batteries are one [possible] answer.” These safety concerns about LIBs are also pushing Panasonic to look at alternative battery power sources.

    “For decades now we have been pushing the limits of our Li-ion batteries in terms of energy density,” Naoaki Yabuuchi, an associate professor at Tokyo Denki University, acknowledged. “Today’s best Li-ion cells can put out about 300 watts per kilogram; a package of Li-ion cells can give off from 150 watts to 250 watts per kilogram. These levels are already close to the theoretical maximum.”

    Yabuuchi is an expert on various types of rechargeable batteries. In his view, LIBs will reach the limit of their desirability as early as the first half of 2020 if their development continues to rely on existing technologies. But he has hope that new research can open up more capacity. “Existing LIBs still have room to improve their energy density because you can raise the density by introducing a nickel-based cathode material, so you can expect the batteries will still be used in the next few years.”

    https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-part...sity-increase/

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    Default Re: Tesla's gigafactory dropping 18650's and going with 20700 - per Elon Musk

    https://electrek.co/2017/04/20/tesla...ction-chinese/

    Nevada’s Lt. Gov. Mark Hutchison recently went on a trade mission to China to promote tourism and his “biggest takeaway” from the mission is surprising: touring Tesla’s Gigafactory was a “near-constant theme” brought up by Chinese tourism officials.
    Hmmm. "Tourism officials" ?

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