H4 LED Upgrade - Are there any good ones?

Andres

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I'd like to preface this by noting I read the sticky and noted the dot-point: "Only very few of the "LED bulbs" available on the market work safely and effectively; most of them are unsafe junk. We will not argue this point."
I recently bought a 2016 Yamaha XSR900 which uses a single 5 3/4 H4 'sealed beam' style headlight up front. The lighting is inadequate in my opinion. My 1967 MG had the same technology strapped to the front of it... :candle:

I've been using Osram Nightbreaker Unlimited in my other cars, with good results, but cars have a) H7 projector lenses b)two headlights and c) are inherently overlooked less often than a motorbike - so I'd like to go a little further than a traditional halogen upgrade product for the bike.

The products below have both been well reviewed around the web, but I do note there is a tendency for the general public to equate 'more output' with 'better lighting'.

http://www.cyclоpsadventurespоrts.cоm/3800-Lumen-H4-LED-Heаdlight-bulb-_p_83.html

http://tripаgeled.com/store/index.php?route=product/product&pаth=102&prоduct_id=206

While I certainly desire more light on the road, I don't want to be blinding other motorists either.
Has anyone had any usage of these products or can recommend other products that are better?
Appreciate the feedback!
 
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Alaric Darconville

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I'd like to preface this by noting I read the sticky and noted the dot-point: "Only very few of the "LED bulbs" available on the market work safely and effectively; most of them are unsafe junk. We will not argue this point."

These particular bulbs are intended to go into a headlamp. None of them are any good, nor are they legal.

I clarified the sticky so that people know that there are no LED "bulbs" for headlamps and foglamps that are any good.

If you want an LED headlamp that will replace the 5¾" round headlamp with incredible technology, then this is what you want.
 
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-Virgil-

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I recently bought a 2016 Yamaha XSR900 which uses a single 5 3/4 H4 'sealed beam' style headlight up front.

H4 headlamps are not sealed beams. Sealed beams do not have replaceable bulbs. I take you to mean the bike has a round H4 headlamp. You're fortunate if it is in fact a standard 5 3/4-inch item; many motorcycles have lamps that look like standard-size items from the front, but when you remove the reflector/lens unit from the housing you find it doesn't have standard mounting/nesting provisions. In that case you have to replace the housing, too, not just the reflector/lens.

Either way, you're right, a small round H4 lamp may be legally acceptable, but it is definitely not adequate.
So-called "LED bulbs" will not make it better, they'll make it worse. There really isn't any bulb of any kind that will make it better. To make it better you need a better lamp assembly, moving away from the ancient and inefficient H4 technology.

If it is in fact a standard item, then the lamp Alaric linked is definitely the one to get. It's very expensive to buy, but far cheaper than the consequences of the crashes it averts you from getting into.
The products below have both been well reviewed around the web, but I do note there is a tendency for the general public to equate 'more output' with 'better lighting'.

It's not even that. It's that the general public equates "I believed the advertising and spent money" with "better lighting". Internet reviews are worth less than the paper they're printed on (er...OK, no paper, but you know what I meant).
 

Andres

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Cheers - will read through.

These particular bulbs are intended to go into a headlamp. None of them are any good, nor are they legal.

I clarified the sticky so that people know that there are no LED "bulbs" for headlamps and foglamps that are any good.

If you want an LED headlamp that will replace the 5¾" round headlamp with incredible technology, then this is what you want.

OK - I get what you're saying. That replacement looks good - but at about 10% of the value of the vehicle it's not really financially viable. I might see what other products (ie non-active) that they make. I don't do high-speed 'twisty' riding at night time, but plenty of dimly lit side streets - so I'm less concerned about seeing around corners when leaning.

Are there any non-active replacements that the CPF regulars recommend?

H4 headlamps are not sealed beams. Sealed beams do not have replaceable bulbs. I take you to mean the bike has a round H4 headlamp. You're fortunate if it is in fact a standard 5 3/4-inch item; many motorcycles have lamps that look like standard-size items from the front, but when you remove the reflector/lens unit from the housing you find it doesn't have standard mounting/nesting provisions. In that case you have to replace the housing, too, not just the reflector/lens.

Either way, you're right, a small round H4 lamp may be legally acceptable, but it is definitely not adequate.
So-called "LED bulbs" will not make it better, they'll make it worse. There really isn't any bulb of any kind that will make it better. To make it better you need a better lamp assembly, moving away from the ancient and inefficient H4 technology.

If it is in fact a standard item, then the lamp Alaric linked is definitely the one to get. It's very expensive to buy, but far cheaper than the consequences of the crashes it averts you from getting into.


It's not even that. It's that the general public equates "I believed the advertising and spent money" with "better lighting". Internet reviews are worth less than the paper they're printed on (er...OK, no paper, but you know what I meant).

Understand they're not technically sealed beams - just based on that style. (I replaced the true 'sealed beams' in my MG with Narava H4 7' kits a decade or so ago - for a good improvement.)

While I certainly agree the '5 Stars - would buy again' reviews are pretty well useless, there are 50+ page threads on various forums which involve a lot of tweaking, adjusting and beam-shots. General consensus is the rider can see a lot more, but there's is SOME more stray light produced. I want to weigh up the pros/cons there and was hoping the experts at CPF may have some input.

I assume by 'make it worse' you mean will produce more issues for oncoming drivers? It seems like there's a consistent improvement for the rider for both of the products I linked.

I find it hard to believe a GOOD LED 'bulb' cannot be produced as the light source / emitter is inherently more controlled than a burning wire. Maybe it's just no-one has put in the effort to refine how they interact with the reflectors yet? :scowl:

A quick edit: Do US laws require you to have a lower light cut-off on the left-hand-side for oncoming traffic? Or is the beam pattern symmetrical around a vertical axis ?
 
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-Virgil-

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OK - I get what you're saying. That replacement looks good - but at about 10% of the value of the vehicle it's not really financially viable.

This one, then.

there are 50+ page threads on various forums which involve a lot of tweaking, adjusting and beam-shots

Photos of beam patterns are worse than useless, they're misleading even if the photographer's intent is noble and pure.

General consensus is the rider can see a lot more

And right here's the problem. No, the rider cannot see more. The rider can see quite a lot less of what they need to see. What we think we can see, what we feel like we can see, is not the same as what we can actually see. Our eyes don't work the way they feel like they do, and situations that create the sensation of "good" or "better" lighting often in fact make things objectively much worse.


I want to weigh up the pros/cons

Pro: some con artist gets your money.
Con: Everything else.

I assume by 'make it worse' you mean will produce more issues for oncoming drivers?

That too, but also a significant threat to your own safety. Headlight beams are complicated. It's not a matter of throwing random streaks and floods of light in the generally forward direction.

It seems like there's a consistent improvement for the rider for both of the products I linked.

No, there really is not. The opposite is true. And this is all without getting into the many other issues involved: the bogus lumen claims that aren't anywhere near true, the giant dropoff in intensity with runtime (LED output drops sharply as temperature increases, and the so-called "heat sinks" of various completely un-engineered description are a joke).

I find it hard to believe a GOOD LED 'bulb' cannot be produced

That is mostly because you do not yet understand the extremely fine precision required in matching an optical system (lens/reflector) with its light source. It is not nearly enough that the light source is at the right place, it also has to be exactly the right size and shape in every respect, or the optic system doesn't (can't) work. It's helpful to think of eyeglasses (spectacles): no matter how good they look on your face, if the lenses were made for someone else's eyes, you cannot see properly.

as the light source / emitter is inherently more controlled than a burning wire.

No, sorry, this is just not the case. I know it's tempting to believe in these products that have caught your fancy, but they are nothing but toys, with no engineering in them, that have no business near a roadgoing vehicle. Your lights are life-safety equipment. You cannot make them safer by installing trinkets like this, no matter how hard you might wish it, no matter how many good "reviews" you can pull up on the internet.

The very, very best this kind of "LED bulb" product gets is an H4 from Philips, not sold in regulated markets because it doesn't meet any regulations, that works passably (not well, just passably) in some H4 headlamps. It is longer than an actual H4 bulb, and I have yet to see a 5 3/4" round lamp it physically fits in, let alone working in. Of those lamps it fits in, the percentage it works at all passably in is low, maybe 40%. Also it requires extra space and free-moving air behind it; an enclosed motorcycle headlamp shell will overheat it and burn it out.
 
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Alaric Darconville

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OK - I get what you're saying. That replacement looks good - but at about 10% of the value of the vehicle it's not really financially viable. I might see what other products (ie non-active) that they make. I don't do high-speed 'twisty' riding at night time, but plenty of dimly lit side streets - so I'm less concerned about seeing around corners when leaning.
Don't you turn corners on side streets?

Yes, that's a lot of money but in that form factor, it's fantastic. Cheaper than your medical deductible, too!

Are there any non-active replacements that the CPF regulars recommend?
Going with this certainly wouldn't be a mistake.

there are 50+ page threads on various forums which involve a lot of tweaking, adjusting and beam-shots. General consensus is the rider can see a lot more, but there's is SOME more stray light produced. I want to weigh up the pros/cons there and was hoping the experts at CPF may have some input.
I'm not sure what kind of "tweaking" and "adjusting" there'd be. There are very specific methods for aiming headlamps depending on their type. There is some room for "tweaking" but this is in adjustments to 10ths of a degree vertically.

I assume by 'make it worse' you mean will produce more issues for oncoming drivers? It seems like there's a consistent improvement for the rider for both of the products I linked.
That's one issue, but the other issue is for yourself. Excessive foreground light (whether on the ground or as backscatter from light in the glare zones), and potentially insufficient light in the right places in the foreground.

I find it hard to believe a GOOD LED 'bulb' cannot be produced as the light source / emitter is inherently more controlled than a burning wire. Maybe it's just no-one has put in the effort to refine how they interact with the reflectors yet?
It's not that hard to believe. And your use of "inherently more controlled" doesn't follow. The precision of the filament winding and its placement within the bulb and then the bulb's own placement in the lamp assembly is extremely well-controlled. The filament's burning characteristics do change over time, but that's why we specify high-performance bulbs that burn out before their loss in intensity and luminance and precision becomes a problem (contrast to "long life" bulbs which continue burning long after they've stopped providing useful light).

Maybe it's just no-one has put in the effort to refine how they interact with the reflectors yet?
This very comment describes the inherent problem: The reflectors are designed specifically for a filament. We are still a long way off from producing an LED light source that can mimic the filament perfectly.

This is starting to look like every other thread in which someone asks about some "new" toy LED bulb. Let's steer it in a new direction.
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Now that we've thoroughly addressed the type of bulbs that are unsuitable to your purposes, it's really between the JW Speaker lamps described above. There's also the Model 8690M, which is non-adaptive but adds a "ComfortLite" feature. That particular one can be found on Amazon (black or chrome) for $420.95, or about 5% of your bike's cost.

I realize that it's often convenient to frame the cost of repairs and upgrades as a percentage of the "value" of the vehicle (and usually that's done when facing repairs on an older vehicle), but this is a very new bike, and with good care and maintenance it can last you a very long time. You're already at a disadvantage with the single headlamp compared to cars, especially on turns. Even the non-adaptive headlamp will be a tremendous upgrade-- but the adaptive one will greatly increase your safety. Your task of driving is hard enough without being made nervous by the factory headlamp, and without being lulled into a false sense of security by any 'upgrade' that isn't precisely one of these three lamps. If a better headlamp can save you the pain, inconvenience, and money of injuries, downtime, and medical/vehicle repair bills, it's something you should strongly consider. Spending $420.95+shipping improving your situation is much, much better than spending $64.95 shipping to make your situation worse. You're MUCH better off not spending a single dime than to put it into one of those toy LED 'bulbs'. In fact, you open yourself up to legal liability installing such a bulb. If someone is severely injured or there's major property damage, and insurer will do anything they can to get out of paying a claim. If they can (and they *can*) blame illegal modifications to your bike for the accident, they will. Not a good situation to be in. JW Speaker certifies their products are DOT and/or ECE compliant, and it's not something they take lightly because of the massive NHTSA fines involved in manufacturing non-compliant motor vehicle lighting devices as well as introducing them into interstate commerce.
 
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-Virgil-

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Be careful, as with any other successful well-made product, there are scads of cheap-garbage Chinese knockoffs masquerading as legitimate products. There is a reason why the legitimate ones cost money. Spend it.
 

harro

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Hi Andres,
With all the light that these ' conversions ' pump out, and the way in which they flood the road with that light ( ie; heaps of light in the foreground, and very little out where you want it ), to your eyes, they do APPEAR brighter. BUT, what your pupils do, is to close up, to reduce the glare coming at you from the foreground light, and in turn, that makes the little light that throws further out, that much less effective.
Whilst decent options, like the JW Speaker conversions are expensive, they are worth it. I would ask myself, ' what is good nightime driving vision worth ? ' If it were to help me spot that brain dead roo just down the road, then the good stuff would win, hands down, every time.
 

Andres

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Gents - a quick update - and to eat a slice of humble pie... :green:

I had a go with the Cyclops H4 LED upgrade kit... it was not an upgrade! I didn't even bother taking it out on the road. The light distribution was 'blocky' and could be seen against the garage wall that there were hotspots and darkspots (a little bit of an exaggeration). It really didn't appear to give a smooth 'wash' of light, that you'd want to light up the road evenly. While it sucks that I've wasted ~$100, it was a good experiment none-the-less.

Now back to the drawing board to see if a JW Speaker (or similar) product can be installed. Little more reluctant to purchase if it won't install properly though. :thinking: And the price in AU$ is a little hard to swallow for what it is. The Eagle Lights products seem to be a little more realistically priced. Otherwise it's back to the old Osram Nightbreaker Unlimited... and maybe some supplementary lights??
 
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-Virgil-

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I had a go with the Cyclops H4 LED upgrade kit... it was not an upgrade! sucks that I've wasted ~$100, it was a good experiment none-the-less.

I don't know...how do you define a "good" experiment? There is some value in confirming for yourself what you've been told by experts, I guess, but is that worth $100?

JW Speaker price in AU$ is a little hard to swallow for what it is

"For what it is", meaning what? It's a properly-engineered, properly-manufactured, fully legal and safe, durable LED headlamp. Which part of that merits a "for what it is" denigration?

The Eagle Lights products seem to be a little more realistically priced.

Um, no. Which part of posts #9 and #10 in this thread are unclear to you?
 
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Alaric Darconville

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Gents - a quick update - and to eat a slice of humble pie...
Sometimes a great dessert after crow! ;)

I had a go with the Cyclops H4 LED upgrade kit... it was not an upgrade! I didn't even bother taking it out on the road. The light distribution was 'blocky' and could be seen against the garage wall that there were hotspots and darkspots (a little bit of an exaggeration). It really didn't appear to give a smooth 'wash' of light, that you'd want to light up the road evenly. While it sucks that I've wasted ~$100, it was a good experiment none-the-less.
No refunds? Ouch. Or was that just on the shipping and you at least got your money back on product?

We *tried* to save you the grief!

JW Speaker (or similar) product can be installed. ...The price in AU$ is a little hard to swallow for what it is.
Yeah, I hate paying the right amount for something that will work well. You get what you pay for!

As far as *similar*, then Truck-Lite might be worth looking at.

And when you see NOT JW Speaker lamps that *LOOK* like JW Speaker lamps, those may well be counterfeits. When you buy a counterfeit, you're paying for a stolen name and not getting the engineering behind the genuine item. You don't get what you don't pay for!
 
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Tefal

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If you want an LED headlamp that will replace the 5¾" round headlamp with incredible technology, then this is what you want.


That is a gimmick and worse thats a gimmick that will get you killed one day.

As you start to lean those extra side leds turn on. They turn on from thier videos at very minor lean angles too (easily within the amount of lean for lane changes or inlane manoeuvres)

No i don't know how things work culturally in the US where its from but in the uk a "flash" means " you can go".

That led comeing on causes a flash.

A slightly inattentive driver looking to change lane or pull out of a side road or to turn across you is one day going to see that flash, give you a little thank you wave and then knock you off.

If youre going to have an adaptive headlight it needs to be some form of a sweeping action wither by a moving reflector or moving light source.



For the op one thing that might help if yourr willing to wait a while is a new patent by yamaha, for multiple projector style LED lenses/lights that come together to make a full beam pattern with much improved distance.

Looks like it will be coming to the new MT 07.

(Mcn link for the patent
http://www.motorcyclenews.com/news/2016/august/yamaha-mt-07-mt-10-face-transplant/)
 

jaycee88

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No i don't know how things work culturally in the US where its from but in the uk a "flash" means " you can go".
That led comeing on causes a flash.

The 'flash to pass' illuminates the high/main beam which directs light into oncoming motorists' eyes to grab their attention. The cornering LED's in the JW Speaker don't do that, they put light on the road.

So as an oncoming driver, while you can see the LED's illuminate as the bike leans over if you happen to be staring at the headlamp and not paying attention to the road ahead, the light from them is not being directed into your eyes. And they don't flash - they stay illuminated as the bike stays banked.

I'd argue that any kind of sudden pitching motion of the motorcycle causing the low/dipped beam of the headlamp to momentarily shine into a motorist's eyes (for example, hitting a bump in the road) would be much more likely to be misinterpreted as a 'flash' than the progressive road illumination of the cornering LED's.

As for the interpretation of the 'flash' in the U.S., I find it varies from region to region, and also it depends on context. In my neck of the woods, most drivers will interpret it as 'you can go' when everyone's stopped at an intersection. In some other areas, drivers don't understand what it means. When in motion, flashes are usually used to get the attention of oncoming motorists, for example to alert them to a road hazard up ahead. And then sometimes, motorists might take offense to getting flashed.


If youre going to have an adaptive headlight it needs to be some form of a sweeping action wither by a moving reflector or moving light source.

BMW has such a headlight on their top of the line K1600GTL - it's an adaptive HID headlight using a moving mirror. According to Virgil, it is extremely complex and extremely expensive.


For the op one thing that might help if yourr willing to wait a while is a new patent by yamaha, for multiple projector style LED lenses/lights that come together to make a full beam pattern with much improved distance.

It doesn't address the issue of the lack of road illumination when leaned over though.

If the OP is not interested in having the adaptive illumination, JW Speaker does have headlamps without that feature. And he could purchase them now, and not have to wait for a patent that may or may not result in an actual product.
 
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Alaric Darconville

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That is a gimmick and worse thats a gimmick that will get you killed one day.
Considering it has ECE Type Approval, apparently JW Speaker and the approving authority know more about the subject than you do.

A slightly inattentive driver looking to change lane or pull out of a side road or to turn across you is one day going to see that flash, give you a little thank you wave and then knock you off.
Slightly inattentive drivers cause all kinds of problems. You have no data to support that a combination of a slightly inattentive driver, and this particular headlamp, will result in any such thing occurring.

For the op one thing that might help if yourr willing to wait a while is a new patent by yamaha, for multiple projector style LED lenses/lights that come together to make a full beam pattern with much improved distance.
Being patented does not imply suitability for a task, nor that an item will be mass produced.
 

-Virgil-

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That is a gimmick

No, it really is not. It's an adaptive headlamp that substantially improves the nighttime safety of the motorcyclist who has it.

and worse thats a gimmick that will get you killed one day.

This silly hyperbole has no basis in fact.

As you start to lean those extra side leds turn on. They turn on from thier videos at very minor lean angles too (easily within the amount of lean for lane changes or inlane manoeuvres)

No, they really do not.

No i don't know how things work culturally in the US where its from but in the uk a "flash" means " you can go".

The flash you imagine doesn't actually happen from this headlamp; the calibration is such that others in traffic are not flashed or glared, assuming the lamp's basic aim setting is correct (any improperly-aimed lamp is unsafe).

That led comeing on causes a flash.

No, it really does not.

A slightly inattentive driver looking to change lane or pull out of a side road or to turn across you is one day going to see that flash, give you a little thank you wave and then knock you off.

You clearly do not understand how this lamp works, and your imagination is running away with you.

If youre going to have an adaptive headlight it needs to be some form of a sweeping action wither by a moving reflector or moving light source.

I'm sorry, but you just don't know what you're talking about here. The lamp you call a "deadly gimmick" is in fact compliant with the stringent UN standards on how adaptive motorcycle headlamps must work, as well as the US standards. The standards are carefully written to address and avoid the unsafe situations you talk about. The headlamp is legal throughout the world, and it is considerably safer in terms of crash avoidance than a fixed, non-adaptive headlamp.
 
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photontorpedo

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I replaced the H-4 bulb (itself a [factory] upgrade from the stock 6V incandescent) in my 1959 BMW motocycle with a "highly reviewed" LED plug in. The experts on this forum have it right, this light, though "white" and "bright" offers less useful illumination at night. I think, though, that it is more eye-catching during the day. A headlight modulator would most likely achieve better results as far as making the bike more noticeable to the "didn't see him" drivers who make left turns right in front of motorcyclists and are one of the more likely ways to die on a bike, at least for sober, licensed, ATGATT riders. (Riders without M/C endorsements, without helmets, and those who ride after drinking are a valuable resource as any of us could need an organ donation someday.)
 

Alaric Darconville

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I replaced the H-4 bulb (itself a [factory] upgrade from the stock 6V incandescent) in my 1959 BMW motocycle with a "highly reviewed" LED plug in. The experts on this forum have it right, this light, though "white" and "bright" offers less useful illumination at night.
Yep. More junk.

A bike like that, converted to 12V, would be an excellent candidate for the JW Speaker adaptive motorcycle headlamp.

I think, though, that it is more eye-catching during the day.
If it's at all "more eye-catching" it's probably because it's putting more light in the glare zone. It's still not safer to use it than the a decent headlamp.

A headlight modulator would most likely achieve better results as far as making the bike more noticeable to the "didn't see him" drivers
Headlamp modulators are a terrible idea. They're great at reducing the life of bulbs, but there is no data supporting the notion that they actually improve safety.

...who make left turns right in front of motorcyclists and are one of the more likely ways to die on a bike, at least for sober, licensed, ATGATT riders.
They'll make left turns in front of bicyclists that they've made eye contact with (me, although anecdotes aren't data), they make left turns in front of cars they think that they can just go faster than, they make left turns in front of semis because they "know" the semi's not going to accelerate quickly enough. They make left turns in front of all kinds of incoming traffic because they misjudge speed and distance. Some drivers make mean or dumb decisions all the time, and even if you have "all the gear all the time" you are at a serious disadvantage to a car, or even another motorcyclist. You and the other motorcyclist might "come out even" but that's like two Christmas trees setting each other on fire.

But a primary function of conspicuity is that others not only "see" you, they identify properly the vehicle type, direction of movement, and speed. It's not enough to know "something is there". The wrong headlamp bulb or a headlamp modulator may complicate the matter for other drivers.

(Riders without M/C endorsements, without helmets, and those who ride after drinking are a valuable resource as any of us could need an organ donation someday.)
Riding without a helmet may well be as stupid as riding after drinking.
 

ameli0rate

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That is mostly because you do not yet understand the extremely fine precision required in matching an optical system (lens/reflector) with its light source. It is not nearly enough that the light source is at the right place, it also has to be exactly the right size and shape in every respect, or the optic system doesn't (can't) work. It's helpful to think of eyeglasses (spectacles): no matter how good they look on your face, if the lenses were made for someone else's eyes, you cannot see properly.

Brilliant similie, I'll have to remember that (about the glasses).

The matching optical systems would mean (like JW Speaker?) that you need very specific LEDs matched to very specific reflectors/projectors/lenses, right? Can one replace the LEDs in the JW speaker units? Or maybe LED "units" (sort of like bulbs) or if a bulb ever burns out before the end-of-bike-life, do you just need a whole new headlamp (ouch)?
 
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