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Thread: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

  1. #1

    Default New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    As a good Chinese friend told me, manufacturing lines were upgraded on several Chinese Li-Ion plants, so we should expect "True" 1000mAh 18350 cells and 3000mAh 18650 cells from chinese manufacturers. I guess, Efest and other rewrappers will present us new cells shortly.

    He also sent me 2 pcs 18350's which claim to have real capacity of 1000mAh. Will have them on hands in 2-3 weeks, will test and let you know.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousOne View Post
    As a good Chinese friend told me, manufacturing lines were upgraded on several Chinese Li-Ion plants, so we should expect "True" 1000mAh 18350 cells and 3000mAh 18650 cells from chinese manufacturers. I guess, Efest and other rewrappers will present us new cells shortly.

    He also sent me 2 pcs 18350's which claim to have real capacity of 1000mAh. Will have them on hands in 2-3 weeks, will test and let you know.
    Nice, thanks for the info. I look forward to your test results. What will you using to test capacity? Will you test the true discharge capacity(charge-discharge-charge)? And, is there any max continuous discharge rating published for these cells? Thanks.

  3. #3

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    The cells sent to me are, as said, ICR chemistry, max discharge current is 2A, so I will test them using Turnigy Accucell 6-80.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousOne View Post
    The cells sent to me are, as said, ICR chemistry, max discharge current is 2A, so I will test them using Turnigy Accucell 6-80.
    I don't see anything about chemistry in your OP? You simply called them Li-Ion which is a broad term that includes many chemistries. Too bad about the low discharge rating. Because of that, they are of little use in our flashlights unfortunately. Most newer flashlights that use 18350's draw more then that, some considerably more. My new Armytek Prime XHP35 draws 7+ amps in stock form for instance. The Manker/Astrolux E14/S41 likely draw 7+ amps as well. Even the Zebralight SC32 or Olight S1/Smini draw 2-3 amps although they run on 16340. Hopefully they will eventually produce some high discharge cells as well. A true 1000mAh IMR18350 with a 10amp continuous draw rating would be sweet.
    Last edited by Tachead; 11-27-2016 at 10:08 AM.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    I think that might be wishful thinking. 20A continuous draw on the newer high drain 18650s are pushing the cells.I also doubt those flashlights are drawing that much current from the cells either. Even an 18350 IMR cell will not be able to deliver that much current even on direct drive. The led would need 4+ volts for that current level and the cell would drop below that almost instantaneously

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    I think that might be wishful thinking. 20A continuous draw on the newer high drain 18650s are pushing the cells.I also doubt those flashlights are drawing that much current from the cells either. Even an 18350 IMR cell will not be able to deliver that much current even on direct drive. The led would need 4+ volts for that current level and the cell would drop below that almost instantaneously
    The top high drain modern 18650's like the Sony VTC6 and VTC5A can handle 30-35amp continuous draw. Modern lithium polymer batteries can handle 300+ amps. Modern graphene infused lithium polymer cells can handle 95C. But, I was talking about 18350 here and 10amps is far from an unreasonable expectation for next generation cells to deliver when the current IMR ones can deliver 8amp continuous.

    These are measured values(with a high end Fluke DMM for most). The ZL SC32 has been measured at 2.4amps draw on turbo and the old S1 at 1.8+(The S1R and Smini have higher-much higher output turbos). The Manker/Astrolux E14/S41 has be measured at 7+ amps on turbo. And, the Armytek Prime XHP35 has a warning in the instructions from the manufacturer to only use with a minimum of 7+ amp continuous high drain cells. Mine instantly trips the protection circuit on NCR18650B on turbo(6-7+ amps). It will run on a Keeppower High Drain IMR18350(8amp continuous rating) for several minutes on turbo.

    Modern boost drivers are pretty efficient

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    The top high drain modern 18650's like the Sony VTC6 and VTC5A can handle 30-35amp continuous draw. Modern lithium polymer batteries can handle 300+ amps. Modern graphene infused lithium polymer cells can handle 95C. But, I was talking about 18350 here and 10amps is far from an unreasonable expectation for next generation cells to deliver when the current IMR ones can deliver 8amp continuous.
    Per hjk's test the vtc6 is a 20A cell. Almost identical to the Samsung 30Q. The vtc5 maybe but it's not going to be good for it long term. Same with the lipo packs. But yes the tech is there. Unfortunately that's with good Japanese and south Korean cells. The Chinese are a long way off. If the good manufacturers would use the cell material from their good 18650s and put it in an 18350 can you could get a 10A continuous 1000+ mah cell but they won't. They can't sell millions of them

    These are measured values(with a high end Fluke DMM for most). The ZL SC32 has been measured at 2.4amps draw on turbo and the old S1 at 1.8+(The S1R and Smini have higher-much higher output turbos). The Manker/Astrolux E14/S41 has be measured at 7+ amps on turbo. And, the Armytek Prime XHP35 has a warning in the instructions from the manufacturer to only use with a minimum of 7+ amp continuous high drain cells. Mine instantly trips the protection circuit on NCR18650B on turbo(6-7+ amps). It will run on a Keeppower High Drain IMR18350(8amp continuous rating) for several minutes on turbo.

    Modern boost drivers are pretty efficient
    I was unaware of a boost circuit in a flashlight size that could supply more than 1A of current. The coil would be too big. At least I can't find one. All the drivers that can handle those high currents I've seen are either DD with a fet or a linear driver like the 7135 based ones. If there are boost drivers that can deliver 7+A then I guess I was wrong. Runtime would be spectacularly bad though if the heatsinking can allow a full run. That's around 28W

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Per hjk's test the vtc6 is a 20A cell. Almost identical to the Samsung 30Q. The vtc5 maybe but it's not going to be good for it long term. Same with the lipo packs. But yes the tech is there. Unfortunately that's with good Japanese and south Korean cells. The Chinese are a long way off. If the good manufacturers would use the cell material from their good 18650s and put it in an 18350 can you could get a 10A continuous 1000+ mah cell but they won't. They can't sell millions of them

    Apparently I didn't split that reply up properly it's been added to the quote

  9. #9

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    It should be noted, that my friend (a lady, in reality), is not a battery expert. She's working at one of rewrapper companies (which targets internal market only), so we'll see and test.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    I was unaware of a boost circuit in a flashlight size that could supply more than 1A of current. The coil would be too big. At least I can't find one. All the drivers that can handle those high currents I've seen are either DD with a fet or a linear driver like the 7135 based ones. If there are boost drivers that can deliver 7+A then I guess I was wrong. Runtime would be spectacularly bad though if the heatsinking can allow a full run. That's around 28W
    Yep, they are pretty common. The Armytek flashlight I have been referencing uses a Cree XHP35 which runs at 12V. Both Zebralight and Armytek(just for instance) are pushing 1300-1700 OTF lumens out of this 12V emitter off of a single cell. Both draw upwards of 7+ amps on turbo and a cell capable of 10amp continuous discharge(Sanyo GA and LG MJ1 are popular choices) is recommended for both. They do heat up quite fast at this output as can be expected though. Both use realtime thermal regulation to keep the output as high as possible while keeping within most Li-ion manufacturers 60C temperature limit.
    Last edited by Tachead; 11-27-2016 at 01:36 PM. Reason: more info added

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    Per hjk's test the vtc6 is a 20A cell. Almost identical to the Samsung 30Q. The vtc5 maybe but it's not going to be good for it long term. Same with the lipo packs. But yes the tech is there. Unfortunately that's with good Japanese and south Korean cells. The Chinese are a long way off. If the good manufacturers would use the cell material from their good 18650s and put it in an 18350 can you could get a 10A continuous 1000+ mah cell but they won't. They can't sell millions of them

    Apparently I didn't split that reply up properly it's been added to the quote
    HKJ's tests showed the VTC6 handles 30A just fine. It just heats up quick so their are limits to the amount of time that kind of current can be used(especially without proper cooling). This doesnt really apply to this conversation anyway because no stock single 18350 or 18650 flashlights comes anywhere near this level of amp draw.

    Many high power RC helicopters are capable of drawing 150-200+amps continuous and if the proper packs are used(65C) they hold up just fine and can last for hundeds of cycles. I draw 90amps continuous from my 45C packs and they are still going strong after 3 years.

    Yes, I wish one of the top Japanese companies would make this cell but, your probably right unfortunately, there just isn't enough demand for it.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    Yep, they are pretty common. The Armytek flashlight I have been referencing uses a Cree XHP35 which runs at 12V. Both Zebralight and Armytek(just for instance) are pushing 1300-1700 OTF lumens out of this 12V emitter off of a single cell. Both draw upwards of 7+ amps on turbo and a cell capable of 10amp continuous discharge(Sanyo GA and LG MJ1 are popular choices) is recommended for both. They do heat up quite fast at this output as can be expected though. Both use realtime thermal regulation to keep the output as high as possible while keeping within most Li-ion manufacturers 60C temperature limit.
    I wish these drivers were available to the consumer. That'd impressive. With linear drivers the cells over 2500mah are wasted if you want regulated output because all their capacity is below 3.5v. That's why I prefer 30q and hb2 cells. They give much higher voltage even under a 3A load than say a Panasonic ncrB so you actually get more regulated runtime even though mah is less. Actually I think it's just about the worst battery made of the "quality" cells

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    And the manker/astrolux is a fet driver. Direct off battery. I'm surprised an 18350 can supply a 7A draw even on start up though

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    And the manker/astrolux is a fet driver. Direct off battery. I'm surprised an 18350 can supply a 7A draw even on start up though
    Keep in mind though that only, top quality, unprotected IMR`s(with an appropriate amp rating) are capable of this. Some can go even higher. The AW 800mAh IMR18350 is rated to 12amp continuous and can supposedly handle close to 25amp pulse. The AWT 800mAh IMR18350 yellow is another good option and can handle 10.5amp continuous with up to 20amp burst. I have been using the Keeppower High Drain IMR18350 blacks and have good performance as well. They are rated to 8amp continuous/15amp pulse but, have tested to 20amp bursts.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    I wish these drivers were available to the consumer. That'd impressive. With linear drivers the cells over 2500mah are wasted if you want regulated output because all their capacity is below 3.5v. That's why I prefer 30q and hb2 cells. They give much higher voltage even under a 3A load than say a Panasonic ncrB so you actually get more regulated runtime even though mah is less. Actually I think it's just about the worst battery made of the "quality" cells
    Yeah, that is the good thing about these new boost drivers. My Armytek can hold turbo all the way down to about 3.2V resting on good quality 18350 or 18650. I dont have a light box to test how much it may be dimming but, I would say not much by my eyes and compared to high. I am running it on Keeppower High Drain IMR18350`s and Sanyo NCR18650GA`s.
    Last edited by Tachead; 11-27-2016 at 03:54 PM.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    Keep in mind though that only, top quality, unprotected IMR`s(with an appropriate amp rating) are capable of this. Some can go even higher. The AW 800mAh IMR18350 is rated to 12amp continuous and can supposedly handle close to 25amp pulse. The AWT 800mAh IMR18350 yellow is another good option and can handle 10.5amp continuous with up to 20amp burst. I have been using the Keeppower High Drain IMR18350 blacks and have good performance as well. They are rated to 8amp continuous/15amp pulse but, have tested to 20amp bursts.
    I didn't realise that light had four emitters. That's makes a big difference. Even on a 7A draw since it's split between 4 emitters in parallel each one only gets less than 2A. At 2 amps the vf of each led is around 3.4v or so. That's easy for a good high drain cell. I thought it was a single emitter at 7A. That would be very hard to do with a single 18350. It's incredible how far we've come. That's probably 1600 lumens on a single 18350. That's amazing
    Anyway aside from our technical hashing it will be neat to see some tests on these new cells the op was talking about. Unfortunately a 2A max draw rate isn't enough. I'll take a small hit on capacity for a 10A cell. I prefer 500mm long cells anyway if 18650 isn't going to work. I find 18350 sized lights are too small and uncomfortable to hold. 2x18350 is too short runtime and 2x 18650 too big unless it's a thrower with a big head. Give us a 2200 mah 18500 that's good for 12A + and I'll buy ten of them. Would be a dream come true for incans

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    I didn't realise that light had four emitters. That's makes a big difference. Even on a 7A draw since it's split between 4 emitters in parallel each one only gets less than 2A. At 2 amps the vf of each led is around 3.4v or so. That's easy for a good high drain cell. I thought it was a single emitter at 7A. That would be very hard to do with a single 18350. It's incredible how far we've come. That's probably 1600 lumens on a single 18350. That's amazing
    Anyway aside from our technical hashing it will be neat to see some tests on these new cells the op was talking about. Unfortunately a 2A max draw rate isn't enough. I'll take a small hit on capacity for a 10A cell. I prefer 500mm long cells anyway if 18650 isn't going to work. I find 18350 sized lights are too small and uncomfortable to hold. 2x18350 is too short runtime and 2x 18650 too big unless it's a thrower with a big head. Give us a 2200 mah 18500 that's good for 12A + and I'll buy ten of them. Would be a dream come true for incans
    Yeah, the XHP35 is a quad die(the newest tech) but, it is housed in a single emitter. The dies are so close together that you can barely see the separate dies unlike the XM-L2 Easywhites. Here is a pic of the High intensity version(domeless)...



    Yep, my Armytek puts out 1581 OTF lumens on turbo off of a single 18350 or 18650. Its impressive for such a small light. It doubles as an efficient hand warmer on turbo as well

    I agree, I look forward to the tests. It still has potential for a low powered light.

    I like 16340/18350 lights for EDC due to their small size but, prefer the 18650 overall. With new tiny 18650 lights coming out like the ZL SC63/SC63w though, single 18650 lights are becoming more and more desirable for discrete EDC pocked carry. I have never tried a light that runs on 18500.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    I actually mean the manker light you mentioned. I haven't tried the xhp35 yet

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousOne View Post
    ... we should expect "True" 1000mAh 18350 cells
    They need to upgrade their lines further and give us a 1500 mAh 18350 good for 3-4A.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    I actually mean the manker light you mentioned. I haven't tried the xhp35 yet
    Oh, right. Yeah, the Manker is a quad with either Nichia 219B's or Cree XP-G2's. I dont have one but, it gets great reviews. You can run it on 18350's or get an optional 18650 tube for it. Maukka did a nice review on it.

  21. #21

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    I'm building my own flashlight from the scratch, and I already finished the driver design and tests. It runs XHP50 from single lithium cell, and draws up to 6A, depending on mode selected. It has analogue brightness adjustment, so no PWM flickering at all The only drawback is, that driver is relatively large - size of half 18350 cell approximately.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    I can see the appeal of better 18350s from China. But 18650s? I just don't see the appeal of 3000mAH Chinese cells of unknown quality and current capacity when you can get already get GREAT cells from manufacturers like Sanyo/Panasonic, Samsung, LG, and Sony at a very reasonable cost.
    Last edited by StorminMatt; 12-01-2016 at 03:37 AM.

  23. #23

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    If you look at in-china market, situation is quite different there. A lot of local brands do sell 18650s to end users, and prices often are much more affordable, than for the big brands.
    For example, good quality, china made IMR 18650, 2000mAh (real capacity, measured), 10A max discharge, can be purchased for about $1.5. Is this bad?

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousOne View Post
    For example, good quality, china made IMR 18650, 2000mAh (real capacity, measured), 10A max discharge, can be purchased for about $1.5. Is this bad?
    This depends. 2000mAH is pretty low capacity these days. If this is TRULY all you need, then it could work for $1.50 a cell - provided the cell is of good quality. The problem, of course, is knowing whether this is indeed the case for unknown cells. There's also the issue of the source of those cells. Must they be ordered from China to get that price? If so, the inconvenience factor of long shipping times and the possibility of having to pay more for faster shipping may need to be factored in. These is also some evidence that shipping for Li-Ion batteries from China could get a whole lot more expensive. In the end, these $1.50 cells will likely be a whole lot less attractive than Japanese and South Korean options that provide greater capacity, greater current draw, known good quality, and fast shipping from US vendors for around $5-$6 a cell. For instance, I recently got a few LG HG2 cells at Illumn for $5 each. They may not be as good as Samsung 30Q or Sony VTC6 cells. But I'll certainly take them ANY DAY over 2000mAH Chinese cells with a 10A max discharge - especially if the price of those cells is closer to $3.50 a cell when all is said and done. Not to mention that many vendors (including Illumn) sell older, lower capacity offerings by the 'Big Four' that beat 2000mAH Chinese cells on most fronts pretty cheap anyway.
    Last edited by StorminMatt; 12-01-2016 at 04:49 PM.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    This depends. 2000mAH is pretty low capacity these days. If this is TRULY all you need, then it could work for $1.50 a cell - provided the cell is of good quality. The problem, of course, is knowing whether this is indeed the case for unknown cells. There's also the issue of the source of those cells. Must they be ordered from China to get that price? If so, the inconvenience factor of long shipping times and the possibility of having to pay more for faster shipping may need to be factored in. These is also some evidence that shipping for Li-Ion batteries from China could get a whole lot more expensive. In the end, these $1.50 cells will likely be a whole lot less attractive than Japanese and South Korean options that provide greater capacity, greater current draw, known good quality, and fast shipping from US vendors for around $5-$6 a cell. For instance, I recently got a few LG HG2 cells at Illumn for $5 each. They may not be as good as Samsung 30Q or Sony VTC6 cells. But I'll certainly take them ANY DAY over 2000mAH Chinese cells with a 10A max discharge - especially if the price of those cells is closer to $3.50 a cell when all is said and done. Not to mention that many vendors (including Illumn) sell older, lower capacity offerings by the 'Big Four' that beat 2000mAH Chinese cells on most fronts pretty cheap anyway.
    Just yesterday Battery Junction had 30Q's on for $4.70 a cell. So, if you wait for the sales, those $3.50 mystery China cells are even less appealing. If you lived in China though, like he said, it might be more appealing.
    Last edited by Tachead; 12-01-2016 at 05:07 PM.

  26. #26

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    My text is in plain English, but I see, people read it as Chinese

    Will say once again. On the domestic China market, cheaper is always considered better, so average Chinese user will vote for 2000mah for $1.5, not for 3000mah for 3.5.

    This was answer to question, why Chinese go to 3000mah, when there brand name ones available. I suspect, true 3000mah china cell will cost $2. For domestic end user. Why should they refuse?

  27. #27

    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Got them. Actually, I've got two pack of cells - 18350 (1 pcs) , which is rated as 1200mAh at 0.5C, and delivers 1086mAh, when discharged with 0.5A. Also I got 18650 (4 pack), which has some advantages, it is rated at 5C discharge, and capacity is said to be 2600mAh. While specs are not spectacular, they are close to reality - at 0.8A discharge, battery delivers 2634mAh, at 2 amps it delivers 2512mAh, and batteries in this 4 pack track just nicely, mAh difference is less than 1% !. But most interesting is the price - domestic retail price is $1 for cell. As I've been told, the factory bought previous generation manufacturing equipment from Samsung, and now rolls own batteries.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    The 18350 looks interesting. Can you do a higher discharge test? If it's really only good to .5C I'm not sure what they could be used in but good decent capacity for its size. Wouldn't call it new gen though. If it was it'd be at least 1500mah and be capable of at least 3c. Thanks for testing them though. Always good to have options

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Yes sure, I just don't had enough time. Will do full scale tests.

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    Default Re: New generation 18350/18650 are coming from Chinese factories.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousOne View Post
    As a good Chinese friend told me, manufacturing lines were upgraded on several Chinese Li-Ion plants, so we should expect "True" 1000mAh 18350 cells and 3000mAh 18650 cells from chinese manufacturers. I guess, Efest and other rewrappers will present us new cells shortly…..
    Any 26650 cells with a true 6000mAh or higher capacity coming from Chinese factories in 2017?

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