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Thread: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

  1. #91
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by id30209 View Post
    [...] one type of batteries isn't good for your wallet sometimes.
    So, unprotected cells are pants-on-fire risks, but protected cells are wallet-on-fire risks? Please give a link to some YouTube wallet-on-fire videos! Vaper pants-on-fire are passe by now.

    More seriously, it is difficult to give a good general answer to such questions since the correct choice is highly context dependent (on device, quality of cell and protection circuit, ability of user to rigorously follow safety protocols, etc).

  2. #92
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    <<Vaper pants-on-fire are passe by now.>>

    LOL

    I recall one story of a vaper who had a pretty severe accident. He was running one of those custom sub-ohm hot-wire mech mods, as they call them, and the battery exploded. Burned his nose and face, knocked out a couple of teeth, and it was even reported that his jaw was fractured. Fortunately those kinds of serious incidents are rare.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  3. #93
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Vaping can get crazy, some use such low ohm coils in their builds..............basically they are shorting the battery/s out. Just checked now and my mod is using 6.8a through 2x 20700 cells(not much load for 3s or so at a time). I dont get the crazy build, have tried 80w even up to 120w and the tank is hot to touch in a vape ................each to their own.

    Question for using unprotected instead of protected when protected works fine is really down to the user. Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught. So positives, over and under voltage protection is the usual, too much load trips as well(say 5a or 8a etc variable). Negatives, potential slight parasitic drain, something else in the equation to fail(trip in the field and no way of resetting or having no back up..........). Cell length, some lights are not 69/70mm+ friendly. Cost is maybe another factor, 10 protected cells could be $30 or so ,more over unprotected(just an example).

    Now some of my lights(certainly 16650) have PCB's, this is more for length with the extra few mm making better contact. Now these lights are sportac triples and OR mule which dont ask more than 3a. Also being in work, its a little more protection. My sons lights have PCB's, now i take care of the charging etc. If anything fails(like me!) there is a little protection there for a cell draining(say Callum left a light on by mistake........it happens, even us adults can do it time to time.

    I am a little OCD with my charging and voltages, every cell gets checked in a charger to mentally note what i have used. If i use a light in work, the cell gets topped up at the end of the day(or 1st thing next morning) ready to go again. Only times i dont top off is when the use has only been a few mins-20m. I dont recall ever a cell getting bellow 3.5v in work, mostly 3.8v and up.

    At home i use some more demanding lights, or ones designed around using high drain cells(where even button top unprotected wont fit!). So flat top high drain cells, i make sure my source for these cells is reputable. I only use said cells i know and in good condition, noting the IR each time i top off. Any damage to wraps get replaced there and then.............If high drain cells are required, i make sure their spec is above the required, i dont push any cells above and beyond their specs. Multi cell lights are matched the best i can, again taking note of voltages after use. If one cell is weak(lower V ), then a new batch of 4 would get used, others used solely in single cell lights.

    Protected or unprotected, all should be treated the same, regardless of any protection.........with respect and without abuse. Protection may give some a false sense of safety, thinking they can get away with more abuse/neglect.............i am sure it happens. Maybe human nature................just a thought.

    Cheers.

  4. #94
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by magellan View Post
    I recall one story of a vaper who had a pretty severe accident [...] Burned his nose and face, knocked out a couple of teeth, and it was even reported that his jaw was fractured.
    I reported that to the smoke-and-fire subforum a couple years ago (photo below). Still waiting for a good wallet-on-(ultra)fire specimen for the zoo. Aha, no one has patented the idea of a wallet with 18650 storage compartment. I just inquired about such on Alibaba. So it shouldn't be long before they pop up all over eBay. Stock up on popcorn.

    Quote Originally Posted by magellan View Post
    Fortunately those kinds of serious incidents are rare.
    Alas, not as rare as they could be with proper safety training. Of course said injuries could have been avoided by using the appropriate Ultrafire endorsed vaping gear, e.g. their patented 10,000 įC mask below (highly recommend when vaping with their 10,000 mAh cells). Vape ultra-safely folks.



    Last edited by Gauss163; 06-11-2018 at 12:34 PM.

  5. #95
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by xxo View Post
    All else being equal, protected cells are:

    - More expensive.

    - Slightly less efficient.

    - Have extra components that can fail, or even potentially short out if damaged.

    I think protected cells make a lot of sense in lights without a dependable low Voltage cut off. But for a quality light with good low Voltage protection (and over Voltage protection if the cells are designed to charge inside the light) built in, I don't see the advantage of protected cells.


    I would turn the question around: Why use protected cells in a light with low Voltage protection?
    Even if your light doesn't have LVP, you're unlikely to drain an unprotected cell unless you forget the light is on and leave it for a few days. The emitter will cut-out at about 3v, and you'll get plenty of warning before that because your light will no longer get higher modes. The driver likely doesn't use much power when the LED is out, but you'll still want to turn it off for real before waiting too long.

    The exception is a light with a boost-driver, but I don't know of any brand that has a boost driver but no LVP.

    I never understood some flashaholics insistence on protection circuits. We all know proper battery care. Besides, a protection circuit won't save you from damage or internal shorts, which is the most dangerous kind of random-venting scenarios.

  6. #96
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by ven View Post
    [...] Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught [...]
    Yes, that's one of the problems with some common single-cell protection designs. The (positive) metal strip running down the side of the can is separated from the negative can only by thin tape. This increases by an order of magnitude the surface area where shorts can be induced by small metallic objects. In that sense they are less safe that unprotected cells. More generally the protection itself is poorly (mechanically) protected, so e.g. a dropped cell could cause significant damage to the protection circuit, possibly disabling some of its protection mechanisms.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    Yes, that's one of the problems with some common single-cell protection designs. The (positive) metal strip running down the side of the can is separated from the negative can only by thin tape. This increases by an order of magnitude the surface area where shorts can be induced by small metallic objects. In that sense they are less safe that unprotected cells. More generally the protection itself is poorly (mechanically) protected, so e.g. a dropped cell could cause significant damage to the protection circuit, possibly disabling some of its protection mechanisms.
    Thank you for confirming, i was sure i had seen(or read) reports of such incidents. Fenix(off the top of my head) seem to have come up with some clever ideas regarding PCB's with their protection. Going beyond min/max V protection. Over heat protection and also in the structural design. Maybe soon we will have high drain cells with protection, yet not too much added in length to give more flexibility in flashlights(fussy ones that like shorter cells for example).

  8. #98
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    I reported that to the smoke-and-fire subforum a couple years ago (photo below). Still waiting for a good wallet-on-(ultra)fire specimen for the zoo. Aha, no one has patented the idea of a wallet with 18650 storage compartment. I just inquired about such on Alibaba. So it shouldn't be long before they pop up all over eBay. Stock up on popcorn.



    Alas, not as rare as they could be with proper safety training. Of course said injuries could have been avoided by using the appropriate Ultrafire endorsed vaping gear, e.g. their patented 10,000 įC mask below (highly recommend when vaping with their 10,000 mAh cells). Vape ultra-safely folks.




    Wow. Thatís a pretty dramatic photo. Thanks for reposting that along with your post.

    I missed your post but encountered the story on a vape website when I was trying to learn more about these vaping devices. (Glad I remembered the details right ;-)). I donít vape myself, but the vapers were pushing the limits and I was following their adventures, so to speak, because I was curious how this would play out. Itís one thing to be holding a flashlight in your hand, but itís another thing to be using a device thatís right in your face.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  9. #99
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by ven View Post
    Vaping can get crazy, some use such low ohm coils in their builds..............basically they are shorting the battery/s out. Just checked now and my mod is using 6.8a through 2x 20700 cells(not much load for 3s or so at a time). I dont get the crazy build, have tried 80w even up to 120w and the tank is hot to touch in a vape ................each to their own.

    Question for using unprotected instead of protected when protected works fine is really down to the user. Having extra protection always makes sense if available to the end user. Now i have seen where protected cells have shorted through the strip on the side getting caught. So positives, over and under voltage protection is the usual, too much load trips as well(say 5a or 8a etc variable). Negatives, potential slight parasitic drain, something else in the equation to fail(trip in the field and no way of resetting or having no back up..........). Cell length, some lights are not 69/70mm+ friendly. Cost is maybe another factor, 10 protected cells could be $30 or so ,more over unprotected(just an example).

    Now some of my lights(certainly 16650) have PCB's, this is more for length with the extra few mm making better contact. Now these lights are sportac triples and OR mule which dont ask more than 3a. Also being in work, its a little more protection. My sons lights have PCB's, now i take care of the charging etc. If anything fails(like me!) there is a little protection there for a cell draining(say Callum left a light on by mistake........it happens, even us adults can do it time to time.

    I am a little OCD with my charging and voltages, every cell gets checked in a charger to mentally note what i have used. If i use a light in work, the cell gets topped up at the end of the day(or 1st thing next morning) ready to go again. Only times i dont top off is when the use has only been a few mins-20m. I dont recall ever a cell getting bellow 3.5v in work, mostly 3.8v and up.

    At home i use some more demanding lights, or ones designed around using high drain cells(where even button top unprotected wont fit!). So flat top high drain cells, i make sure my source for these cells is reputable. I only use said cells i know and in good condition, noting the IR each time i top off. Any damage to wraps get replaced there and then.............If high drain cells are required, i make sure their spec is above the required, i dont push any cells above and beyond their specs. Multi cell lights are matched the best i can, again taking note of voltages after use. If one cell is weak(lower V ), then a new batch of 4 would get used, others used solely in single cell lights.

    Protected or unprotected, all should be treated the same, regardless of any protection.........with respect and without abuse. Protection may give some a false sense of safety, thinking they can get away with more abuse/neglect.............i am sure it happens. Maybe human nature................just a thought.

    Cheers.
    Very informative. Thanks for the detailed post on your experiences as Iíve been following the vaping area a bit although I donít vape myself.
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  10. #100
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Thank you Magellan

  11. #101
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Youíre welcome!
    It is better to buy a beautiful, expensive, custom flashlight than to curse the darkness.

  12. #102

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Because protected cell are expensive than unprotected... i strictly use an unprotected cells whenever i can.

  13. #103
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Hello there,

    I dont know if this has been said or not yet but, some things will simply NOT run on protected cells because the protection circuit does not go up high enough to allow the proper current to flow. I dont think there are any protection circuits that go up to 30 amps for example, but i know they do go up to 10 amps. If you have a light that needs 12 amps, then you cant use a 10 amp battery can you, so you need to go to an 'unprotected' type of cell.

    I only have one light like this an i take special precautions when using it and when charging the batteries. For example, when i turn the light 'off' i also rotate the body of the light by 1/2 to 1 full turn. That disconnects the battery cells from the light electronics. So i do not depends on the circuit to keep the light off and that is because the circuit to turn the light on and off is always active even with the light off because they use a momentary push button switch to turn the light on. But even if that wasnt the case, i still like knowing that my cells are completely disconnected from the circuit when i turn off.

    I also keep a close eye on the charge process, never leaving the area even for a minute when they are on charge, but then again i do that with all of my Li-ion cells. I also have a chemical fire extinguisher within arms reach ready for any emergency situation.

    But to the point of the thread, the main reason that i know of for using unprotected cells is that you have a device that simply will not run on protected cells so you must purchase unprotected cells and use them. Otherwise, you can not use that device because it will keep tripping the protection circuit unless maybe you have a "low" setting you can try.
    Take care,
    Al
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  14. #104
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I use unprotected cells when I know the light has LVP. I have an XTAR charger, so good there too.

    My question is about Malkoff P60 drop-ins. Gene's web page says "This dropin was primarily designed for use with a single Li-ion protected rechargeable cell."
    I asked him whether it was Ok to use unprotected cells and his response was "It [the unprotected cell] won't harm the drop-in." LOL!!! I was more worried about the humans using the drop-in...

    Anyways, can anyone confirm if Malkoff drop-ins have LVP, so safe to use unprotected? I can't find it on his website... Thanks.

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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by lion504 View Post
    ....
    Anyways, can anyone confirm if Malkoff drop-ins have LVP, so safe to use unprotected? I can't find it on his website... Thanks.
    No, not as such.
    ... is the archimedes peak

  16. #106
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newlumen View Post
    Because protected cell are expensive than unprotected...
    So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
    ===============
    Quote Originally Posted by MrAl View Post
    some things will simply NOT run on protected cells because the protection circuit does not go up high enough to allow the proper current to flow.
    Do you think I would call this situation FINE?
    I repeatedly mentioned,
    IF PROTECTED CELL WORKS FINE

    ==============
    Quote Originally Posted by lion504 View Post
    Gene's web page says "This dropin was primarily designed for use with a single Li-ion protected rechargeable cell."
    I asked him whether it was Ok to use unprotected cells and his response was "It [the unprotected cell] won't harm the drop-in."
    Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
    In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.
    Last edited by fivemega; 06-14-2018 at 07:07 PM.

  17. #107
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega View Post
    So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
    ===============
    Do you drive?

  18. #108
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega View Post
    Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
    In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.
    I think you make some good points in your posts to this thread. But wouldn't adding LVP to the light (in this case the P60 drop-in) be evidence of caring about the user/customer's safety?

    Is there a good reason why the manufacturer would make the customer to rely on the protection circuit in the battery, which many have pointed out can be unreliable? Other than keeping production costs down?

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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by lion504 View Post
    I think you make some good points in your posts to this thread. But wouldn't adding LVP to the light (in this case the P60 drop-in) be evidence of caring about the user/customer's safety? Is there a good reason why the manufacturer would make the customer to rely on the protection circuit in the battery, which many have pointed out can be unreliable? Other than keeping production costs down?
    So that you aren't suddenly and unexpectedly without light (running primaries) , which could perhaps be dangerous, in certain situations.

    It also allows for more flexibility in power sources, as many of these dropins have a relatively wide voltage range. This allows for some choice in number and type of battery(s) which may be used.

    A fixed voltage cutoff would essentially limit the user to a particular specified setup.
    Last edited by archimedes; 06-14-2018 at 07:48 PM.
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  20. #110
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Got it. Malkoff drop-ins can use either multiple CR123s (up to 9 volts) or protected Li-Ions. Thanks.

  21. #111
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega View Post
    So you don't even value your own safety for $2 extra ???
    ===============

    Do you think I would call this situation FINE?
    I repeatedly mentioned,
    IF PROTECTED CELL WORKS FINE

    ==============

    Because his concern is your safety and not the drop in module.
    In most cases, drop in can be replaced but human health can not. So your safety is first.
    Hi,

    Well if it works "FINE" then it seems to me it would be your own choice or based on happenstance.
    For example, if you did not have any protected cells left and you wanted to change your battery, you'd have to use one of your unprotected cells.
    For a risk example, it would depend on if you think the risk of having a strip go up the side of the cell is more risky than using an unprotected cell. I assume you know how to handle unprotected cells here.
    For another example, your flashlight has built in limiting.

    Probably too many cases to mention here where you might want to use one in place of a protected cell.
    Your little brother stole all of your protected cells and you need to go out that very night :-)
    Take care,
    Al
    LED's vs Bulbs, the battle is on.
    My bumper sticker: "I Brake for LED's"
    To err is human, to theorize divine.

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  22. #112
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    So imagine you are descending down a cave with a headlamp on and a spare light in your backpack along with spare cells.

    Suddenly that nice headlight quits. The Li-ion battery is dead and you are plunged into complete darkness.

    Now you have to run an emergency battery swap or retrieve the spare light. All while you are hanging on some rock.

    Protected Li-ions are not an option for anyone that deals with danger where situations can escalate quickly.

    Either primary 123s make tons more sense - they are light and cheap. Or unprotected Li-ions - they store more energy and gradually decline towards oblivion,giving you plenty of time to figure out when to swap.

    I can pretty much tell when my lights hit 3.0V and 2.8V just by looking at the output. Over the last decade, since I use the same lights pretty much, I learned to tell when I am close to 2.5V -- and long before I get there. It's not that hard.
    ****** Malkoff Devices ****** ďLearn to light a candle in the darkest moments of someoneís life. Be the light that helps others see; it is what gives life its deepest significance.Ē ― Roy T. Bennett, The Light in the Heart

  23. #113
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by etc View Post
    So imagine you are descending down a cave with a headlamp on and a spare light in your backpack along with spare cells. Suddenly that nice headlight quits. The Li-ion battery is dead and you are plunged into complete darkness. Now you have to run an emergency battery swap or retrieve the spare light. All while you are hanging on some rock. Protected Li-ions are not an option for anyone that deals with danger where situations can escalate quickly [...]
    I don't follow your logic. How does the claim in the final sentence follow from what you wrote prior to it?

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