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Thread: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

  1. #31
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I only use protected cells in flashlights that take more than 1 li-ion cells to protect me against out of balance cells.

    Protected cells in flashlights can leave you in the dark when the low voltage protection kicks in, not something you want to happen in an emergency.

    John.
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  2. #32

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    As someone who's been vaping on mech mods for years I only have unprotected cells for use when my flashlight finally turns up. They are fine to use in series will a little common sense. Only use married pairs and label them A and B and after ever charge switch their position in the light so the load is shared equally over time. I keep a log book next to my charger that has voltage after use, voltage after charge, total charge time and last position in the battery sled. Yes it takes up a bit of time but there's no substitute for safety.

  3. #33

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Of course, protected Lithium-ion batteries do still have their place, especially in the multi-celled flashlight which you do need a lot of redundancy to ensure it stay safe - most circuit breakers trip if there is inconsistency in current consumption.

    On the other hands, they're kind of useless in the pocket rockets except for low power mode which they're still okay for use in a pinch. Most low drain protected 18650 cells trip out at 2 - 5 Amps which is not good enough for usage in the triple LED pocket rockets.

    And yup, common sense still applies. I'd recommend to buy a cheap DMM (digital multimeter) to check the battery voltage to judge whether it has enough juice or not, and to be sure multiple 18650 cells are within 1 - 10% of each other if you chuck them all in multi-celled flashlight, and it's also therefore much more strict when you use them in vapers (since they're more abusive than flashlight from current consumption standpoint - not all vapers are created equal, however, a few vapers use DC-DC buck converter which usually mean less current demand on batteries depending on wattage settings).

    And no Ultrafire batteries. Genuine XTAR chargers (and a few other respectable brands) can be had from the cigar shops and Amazon websites - you have to confirm if it's genuine though as it's easier to get the fakes nowadays. Genuine chargers and genuine batteries are every flashoholic's best friends.
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  4. #34

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mario View Post
    Of course, protected Lithium-ion batteries do still have their place, especially in the multi-celled flashlight which you do need a lot of redundancy to ensure it stay safe - most circuit breakers trip if there is inconsistency in current consumption.
    Only just within the last few days I have been introduced to the idea that the protection strip can fail, at times spectacularly, for whatever reason. Safety redundancy appears on its face to benefit all. But if you consider that the more complexity you add to something, the more points of failure exist, the necessity of safety redundancy is diminished.

    I'm not disagreeing just to disagree, but hopefully in dissent we all might better have an overall view of the facts and the truth (which is philosophically (i.e. epistemologically and metaphysically) unknowable, unattainable... we can only reduce the margin of error) , and then better base our own conclusions on what is necessary or ideal for our individual purposes.
    Last edited by chillinn; 12-17-2016 at 10:51 AM.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    A few months ago we switched to all unprotected cells (GA/VTC6/30Q) in our K60's and K70's.

    Nothing more than I just feel more confident in them vs. the protected KeepPowers and Evva's we had been using.

  6. #36

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by chillinn View Post
    Only just within the last few days I have been introduced to the idea that the protection strip can fail, at times spectacularly, for whatever reason. Safety redundancy appears on its face to benefit all. But if you consider that the more complexity you add to something, the more points of failure exist, the necessity of safety redundancy is diminished.
    I totally agree.

    That's why I prefer to use unprotected Lithium-ion batteries nowadays as the low voltage cutout circuit breaker function is adequately provided by the software nowadays on 7135 LDO or buck / boost converter LED drivers which are now managed by the microcontroller chips.

    Low voltage cutout in the provided circuit breaker board inside the protected Lithium-ion batteries are considered the last resort (which is to cut off at 2.5 Volts) which shouldn't be abused unless you can confirm it cuts off at 3.0 - 3.5 Volts. As for amperage rating on the cell, the purpose of high drain cell is effectively defeated by the circuit breaker board which usually trip way below what the cell is capable of.

    So it's a no-go on the pocket rocket flashlights which may drain way above the cutoff current settings (usually at the current rating significant enough to obliterate the SMD components in the circuit breaker board - about 10 Amps or more, from the trends of the pocket rockets discussed hereon).

    Hence, for the TLR version: Not worth using protected Lithium-ion batteries in intelligent LED flashlight which usually has low voltage cutout protection and in the pocket rockets.

    P.S. We now need to include multi-voltage, multi-cell circuit breaker function into the multi-celled flashlight as there is enough space on the LED driver board, and potentially enough space on the microcontroller chip's flash memory. That way we can eliminate a few remaining problems with the sketchy protected Lithium-ion batteries.
    Last edited by Dr. Mario; 12-17-2016 at 12:19 PM.
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  7. #37
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mario View Post
    I totally agree.

    That's why I prefer to use unprotected Lithium-ion batteries nowadays as the low voltage cutout circuit breaker function is adequately provided by the software nowadays on 7135 LDO or buck / boost converter LED drivers which are now managed by the microcontroller chips.

    Low voltage cutout in the provided circuit breaker board inside the protected Lithium-ion batteries are considered the last resort (which is to cut off at 2.5 Volts) which shouldn't be abused unless you can confirm it cuts off at 3.0 - 3.5 Volts. As for amperage rating on the cell, the purpose of high drain cell is effectively defeated by the circuit breaker board which usually trip way below what the cell is capable of.

    So it's a no-go on the pocket rocket flashlights which may drain way above the cutoff current settings (usually at the current rating significant enough to obliterate the SMD components in the circuit breaker board - about 10 Amps or more, from the trends of the pocket rockets discussed hereon).

    Hence, for the TLR version: Not worth using protected Lithium-ion batteries in intelligent LED flashlight which usually has low voltage cutout protection and in the pocket rockets.

    P.S. We now need to include multi-voltage, multi-cell circuit breaker function into the multi-celled flashlight as there is enough space on the LED driver board, and potentially enough space on the microcontroller chip's flash memory. That way we can eliminate a few remaining problems with the sketchy protected Lithium-ion batteries.
    How is the driver going to know individual cell voltages without it being a proprietary pack? You need wires going to each individual cell in that case. Not possible in a tubular flashlight

  8. #38

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    It don't have to. The trick is using voltage dividers feeding into the microcontroller ADC (analog to digital converter) and work with the cell voltage values from both ADC and settings in the software. It's usually what some cheap LED drivers like Nanjg do to ensure it don't go out of check.

    As for multi-celled circuit breaker, there's no need for proprietary battery either, you just read individual cell's voltage and make a decision to continue or either cut off or dim down and flash a warning strobe (red LED in the button) to indicate the problem with batteries, while also buying you a bit time with dim light so you can swap out the batteries after finding alternative sources of illumination.

    Microcontrollers nowadays have several on-die ADCs which is useful in several type of sensor applications - you can also substitute that with a Lithium-ion battery protection chip and latch onto its I2C / SPI bus to figure out what's going on. That's the beauty of software, it allows you to do that cheaply (even to the point it make some proprietary chips totally unnecessary).

    As for tubular flashlight (can style), there is usually room for several wires. There's no excuse in that because of the volatile nature of the Lithium-ion batteries - it's best to continuously monitor the cells to be sure, as I don't think some folks would ever bother to check any cells before chucking them in. It's either the flashlight shutting down safely or it explode taking its user with it. It's also further proven by rashes of news concerning exploding multi-celled vapers.
    Last edited by Dr. Mario; 12-17-2016 at 02:20 PM.
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  9. #39
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    But how are you going to load cells into a flashlight from either the tail or the head when there's a tab or something in between the cells? Load one cell from each end? That's rather inconvenient. I like your idea. Like lipo packs where there's a balance cable. That's a premade multi cell pack though. Implementing that idea into a tubular flashlight that takes cylindrical user replaceable cells just isn't feasible. Also cells going out of balance are not going to explode. If there's that much of an imbalance to really cause problems the lower capacity cell will just be dead. And the charger will not charge it if it's too low or if the polarity has been reversed
    Last edited by vicv; 12-17-2016 at 03:39 PM.

  10. #40

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Spring-loaded pins for voltage measurement taps and retainer pins on the printed circuit board on the battery carrier so it don't rotate when you twist the cap back in. If you have seen the soda can style quad-celled flashlight, you would know what I mean - some has battery carrier.

    I would do this on my soda can flashlight (with a custom LED driver board) because I simply can't trust that the batteries won't go out of balance - it's like building a house without the foundation and expecting it not to fall apart.
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  11. #41
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Ok. Spring loaded pins in the tube? That would be very difficult to manufacture inside the tube of the light. And I'm not talking about lights with battery carriers. I'm just talking a simple tube with a switch at the tail and a head at the other end. I think you're over worried about cell balance though. I use almost exclusively Incan lights. Some draw a lot of power. Never a problem of cell balance. A tenth of a volt or so doesn't matter. And I don't even have low voltage protection. With incans it's easier because I can see when the batts are dead. If an led light takes 2x18650 and lvp of 6v. If one cell is 2.9V and the other is 3.1V it's still not a problem

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by vicv View Post
    If an led light takes 2x18650 and lvp of 6v. If one cell is 2.9V and the other is 3.1V it's still not a problem
    And THIS is why I don't worry about running unprotected cells in series. If you take a worst case scenario where you run one cell down to 2.5V, the other would have to be at 3.5V when a 6V low voltage protection or warning kicks in. Unless you do something grossly negligent like not fully charging your batteries before use, use batteries of different capacity, or run a new cell with one that is a few years old, this is simply NOT going to happen. Even if the cells are not perfectly matched in terms of age and cycles, getting a voltage diference of more than .2-.3V is pretty unlikely so long as you stick with quality cells and age/cycles are not GROSSLY different. And even if there is no low voltage protection and/or warning of any kind, it is really just a matter of knowing your runtime and giving yourself some wiggle room. For instance, if you have a two cell light that can run two hours on two 18650s, you really have NOTHING to worry about so long as you run your light for, say, an hour and a half and always fully charge both batteries before use. You just might wnat to periodically do a runtime test to make sure that you adjust your runtime expectations (or relegate the cells to single cell use) as the cells age.
    Last edited by StorminMatt; 12-18-2016 at 05:43 PM.

  13. #43
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Tough men use unprotected only! Hardcore rocks But not stupidity. DMM is a must.

    Yesterday have checked more than a year old Thrunite TN32. All three unprotected 18650 cells happened to be exactly the same voltage with mV precision.

  14. #44
    Flashaholic* dc38's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Tough men use unprotected only! Hardcore rocks But not stupidity. DMM is a must.

    Yesterday have checked more than a year old Thrunite TN32. All three unprotected 18650 cells happened to be exactly the same voltage with mV precision.
    Impressive, as I was sure the tn32 runs in series. Was that resting voltage?
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  15. #45
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by dc38 View Post
    Impressive, as I was sure the tn32 runs in series. Was that resting voltage?
    That was a bit depleted voltage. Were charged, got some use, then I did a check -- all three were at 4.07V. The case showed 12.21V accordingly.
    Last edited by vadimax; 12-18-2016 at 02:22 PM.

  16. #46
    Flashaholic* stephenk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    There are a few things that can catch people out in series lights. Parasitic drain running cells below 2.5V, and mixing up full and empty cells causing reverse charging (there is a thread in this forum of a serious li-ion explosion caused by this). As far as I'm aware, a good protection circuit should prevent both. Sadly, humans are humans, and even the best of us can make mistakes. I've started using unprotected cells in single cell lights with LVP, but still prefer to use protected in series lights (even though I've never done anything that would require the protection circuit to kick in).
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  17. #47
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    A protected cell is like a gun you are unable to shoot your own foot , but cannot kill a dog that already has clung into your leg. I prefer responsibility because it leaves me an option to deplete batteries dry in SNAFU situation and not to find myself in position of unexpected darkness (protection kicked in) and forced battery change.
    Last edited by vadimax; 12-18-2016 at 02:40 PM.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Keep in mind that protected cells protect against not only user error, but also against faulty devices, e.g. a defective charger that charges to too high voltage or at too high current. Even if you are very knowledgeable about safety and also highly-disciplined enough to rigidly follow safety rules (a rare combination), you have little if any control over device faults. That's one reason why it's worthwhile having multiple levels of fault protection.

  19. #49
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Well, may be. But the only experience I had with protected cells so far -- is kicking in current protection of Olight 16340 cell inside Olight S1 Ti

  20. #50
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by stephenk View Post
    There are a few things that can catch people out in series lights. Parasitic drain running cells below 2.5V, and mixing up full and empty cells causing reverse charging (there is a thread in this forum of a serious li-ion explosion caused by this).
    That's why you (1) don't store your cells in your light (unless the light does NOT use an electronic switch OR you can lock out the light), and (2) ALWAYS fully charge your cells before using the light.

  21. #51
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    That's why you (1) don't store your cells in your light (unless the light does NOT use an electronic switch OR you can lock out the light), and (2) ALWAYS fully charge your cells before using the light.
    That is true, but sadly not everyone has that common sense.
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  22. #52
    Flashaholic* TinderBox (UK)'s Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I have a habit of holding a small flashlight in my mouth leaving my hands free to work, I use an protected cell in that case or an nihm flashlight.

    John.
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  23. #53
    Flashaholic* stephenk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by TinderBox (UK) View Post
    I have a habit of holding a small flashlight in my mouth leaving my hands free to work, I use an protected cell in that case or an nihm flashlight.

    John.
    Maybe you need a headlamp?
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  24. #54

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    As for the chargers, I usually check the chargers, loaded or unloaded, with the DMM before I can truly trust them. Built-in protection is good to have, but as everyone knows, it's both a blessing and a curse.

    I usually follow very strict rules of Lithium-ion battery handling (ie. doing homework before buying the particular batteries for whatever they will be used in - in term of peak short-circuit amperage rating which is occasionally important in pocket rockets, and capacity, down to charging them with proper chargers, all from cradle to grave).

    If you can properly follow the safety rules, there's little need for the built-in circuit breaker for overall usage. Still, good point on LED driver failure mode, which I would think it is a good idea to have the built-in circuit breaker board inside the protected battery - up to a point there's a big difference between the nuisance trip or legit short-circuit trip in term of end LED current consumption (some LEDs like Nichia 219 / 319 LEDs can easily survive 6 Amps current no problem) and the LED driver current consumption as well as circuitry topology (switchmode or linear regulation).
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  25. #55
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mario View Post
    [..] If you can properly follow the safety rules, there's little need for the built-in circuit breaker for overall usage [..] .
    As I emphasized above, even if you could unerringly, robotically follow safety rules, that doesn't eliminate the need for protection circuitry, because it protects not only against user errors but also against device failures, such as chargers that have gone awry, or were improperly designed etc.

    As for following safety rules, even experts make mistakes, e.g. the hobby shop owner who's shop burnt down when he stepped out for 10 minutes while leaving some packs charging. The problem here is that it's easy to get too comfortable, thinking, ah, I've charged hundreds of Li-ion batteries and never had a problem, so it should be ok to step far away from the charger for 15 minutes to do xyz. But if you want to be safe, you should never do that, even if 99% of the time you can get away with it.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 12-19-2016 at 05:08 PM.

  26. #56

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Still, you have to always allow redundancy - if you don't think to follow strict rules, expect trouble. It's not your father's Nickel Cadmium battery, that thing pack a punch so you have to always be sure, even though some Lithium-ion battery types allow rooms for some mistake, you certainly won't with classic Lithium Cobalt Oxide cells (which is why I don't handle Li : CoO2 cells anymore, they easily overheat as much as you sneeze at them).

    Robotically? Not so, as there are so much warning points in the datasheets especially for the Sony 18650 cells that you have to take that very seriously.
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  27. #57

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Also, most newer 18650 cells are now of Lithium Polymer types, so extra cares have to be heeded - personally I prefer that over handling the pouch cells as it's easy to blow one of them up even from slightly bending it due to the pouch cell being so soft. Metal cans mitigate the risks somewhat, so you're left to deal with electrical details like LVP (low voltage protection) and charging process.
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  28. #58
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Mario View Post
    Still, you have to always allow redundancy - if you don't think to follow strict rules, expect trouble [...e]
    Yes, that's exactly the point I was making above. Maybe your earlier statement ("if you can properly follow the safety rules, there's little need for the built-in circuit breaker for overall usage") meant something different that what I thought. I interpreted it as implying that there was no need for protection circuitry (e.g.protected cells) if one can follow safety rules.

  29. #59

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I suppose. There's some redundancy in the LED drivers nowadays and you can ask to have desired voltage cutout put in for extra fees anyways. We're now seeing less and less of the "dumb" LED drivers (not defined by firmware as such) though, as microcontrollers now only cost a couple of changes.

    I would still use protected Lithium-ion batteries in multi-celled setup as we would never know, in term of voltage balance of entire cells under load. I never find protected Lithium-ion cell necessary in the single-celled flashlight anyhow, and it's up to the others to interprete. (One exception, however, is that I would use protected Lithium-ion battery at first in new, stock flashlight like Olight or four-sevens for example, so I can be sure the software-defined LVP is working as intended, without tripping the circuit breaker inside the protected Lithium-ion battery before I decide to chuck unprotected Lithium-ion battery in it the next time - and all my DIY flashlights I assembled trip out at 3.0 Volts.)

    For those new to Lithium-ion batteries, I technically recommend the protected Lithium-ion batteries until they gain enough experience and knowledge to use the unprotected Lithium-ion batteries in their flashlights safely. It's like the gun, which you have to have knowledge to use it safely; it can either be your friend or your enemy.
    Last edited by Dr. Mario; 12-19-2016 at 06:25 PM.
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  30. #60
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by psychbeat View Post
    On both occasions the thin flat wire shorted to the metal case. Once, on the edge near the positive end and the other near the neg end when the cell was dropped.

    When this happens you need to watch out as the flat wire heats up quickly and will melt the wrapper.
    Both of the cells were fine after I removed the PCB and rewrapped. In fact, I'm still using them regularly.

    These were genuine cells purchased directly from Andrew's old thread on CPFMP.
    Many new high quality protected cells no longer use the thin metal strip down the side and have riveted steel enclosures to protect the PCB. Some can also handle 10 amps continuous draw now and have a full 1 year warranty as well. Protected cells have advanced along with cells in general. It's still hard to beat the price of unprotected though.
    Last edited by Tachead; 12-19-2016 at 07:14 PM.

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