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Thread: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

  1. #61

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I certainly hope so, as it's hard to tell under the wrap.
    ****** Custom filtered blacklight flashlight based on both Nichia NVSU233A-U365 and Convoy S2 flashlight host (Pictured in avatar icon) ******

  2. #62
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

  3. #63

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega View Post
    Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?
    I saw this on the home page in huge red letters and actually laughed, kudos.
    White wall hunting is not a very good indicator of a flashlight’s potential, not sure where it got it’s popularity. - DB Customs

  4. #64
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega View Post
    Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?
    Because they don't. While flashlight vendors compete for compactness more and more lights fit protected cells poorly (springs overstressed or even deform a battery when closed) or do not fit them at all. Often current protection kicks in too early, disabling a high drain light, when unprotected cell of the same vendor works just fine not even warming up under load.

  5. #65

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Regarding the Darwin Award and Intelligent User comments, would you hand a light with unprotected batteries to a child, or to someone who was an otherwise responsible adult but wasn't into geeking out on electronics and battery chemistry?

    - Say for instance in the unlikely situation where the light was a tool that needed to work without being a distraction regarding its own special needs.
    The brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

  6. #66
    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by eh4 View Post
    Regarding the Darwin Award and Intelligent User comments, would you hand a light with unprotected batteries to a child, or to someone who was an otherwise responsible adult but wasn't into geeking out on electronics and battery chemistry?

    - Say for instance in the unlikely situation where the light was a tool that needed to work without being a distraction regarding its own special needs.
    To answer your question, I wouldn't hand a flashlight with a naked li-ion cell to anybody who wasn't versed in the use of such, but I would probably lend a light that ran off of AAs to a neighbor, or one that used say...D batteries.

    I have a few lights that fit into the latter category, for such an event, but as a rule, I don't any longer buy protected cells for my personal use.

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  7. #67

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    ... ;-)
    The brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    It feels natural!
    GOOD TINT!

  9. #69
    ven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    For the 1st time in ages(years) i have bought 2 button top protected keeppower 16650's. The reason simply for a few extra mm in length for some lower powered drop ins(standard surefire hosts). I have and still do use some magnets, these are on the standard flat top sanyo 16650 4.35v cells in standard hosts. But for work, the highest i will use is around 1.5a iirc for the oveready 219b mule(around 300lm which can be a little too bright sometimes). Even the sportac triple sees 20% mode 90% of the time in work.

  10. #70
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Often current protection kicks in too early,
    If current protection kicks in too early, then it does not work fine.
    The question is clearly mentioned in post #1 and #62

    Just imagine you have two identical flashlight of same make and model, one has protected and second has unprotected and they both work same way and you can't tell the difference, which one you prefer and why?

    --------
    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett
    I don't any longer buy protected cells for my personal use.
    So your unprotected cells are for your own use only.
    I can understand that and 100% acceptable.

  11. #71
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Why don't I use protected cells? There are several reasons:

    1. SELECTION - Only a few different cells are available as protected cells. For obvious reasons, these are typically low current, high capacity cells like the NCR18650B or NCR18650GA. These may not be bad cells. But they are limiting, even in lights that don't draw HUGE current. For instance, high current cells like the VTC6 now offer virtually the same capacity as the old NCR18650B with better voltage. Also, cells other than these may be just as good, but available at a lower price because of their obscurity (think Samsung 35E vs NCR18650B or MJ1). Using unprotected cells allows you to choose which cells you want to use rather than being forced to use only those available as protected cells.

    2. PRICE - Of course, you already knew this one. Unprotected cells are quite a bit less expensive than protected.

    3. FITMENT - We all know about length issues with protected cells. We also know that some newer lights (like Zebralights and the Astrolux quads) can't fit protected cells. Protected cells are also generalky thicker, which can cause fitment issues as well.

    4. SAFER CELLS - True ICR cells are largely a thing of the past. The newer hybrid cells are LOTS safer, so protection circuits just aren't as necessary to keep you safe.

    5. PROTECTED LIGHTS - Most quality single cell lights have good onboard overdischarge protection. Overdischarge protection on the cell just isn't needed in this situation.

    6. NOT WANTING TO BE LEFT IN THE DARK - Protected cells cut power instantaneously when voltage is too low. This can be inconvenient at best, or dangerous at worst. Protected lights generally step down before finally cutting power, allowing you to have SOME light. So you won't trip and twist your ankle on a rock because everything just went dark.

    7. BETTER VOLTAGE - Protection circuits generally eat up a tenth or two of a volt. This may not seem like much. But it can make a difference, particularly at hugher brightness levels. It can also reduce runtime somewhat since the voltage threshold for a light's built-in protection is reached sooner. Voltage can also be better since using unprotected cells allows the use of higher current cells (which maintain voltage better).

    8. HIGHER CURRENT - There are two reasons for this. First, high current cells are generally unprotected. Secondly, thr protection circuit will often kick in even below the rated current of a cell. Therefore, unprotected cells will work better in the many lights available that can draw higher currents.

    9. SIMPLICITY/RUGGEDNESS - There is one less thing to go bad in an unprotected cell. Protection circuits donoccasionally fail. And a drop where the cell lands on the PCB has the potential to damage it. When a protection circuit goes bad, the cell is useless. Sure, you can always pull the circuit and use it as an unprotected cell. But you may be in a situation where you don't have a wrapper to pull this off (like out hiking). And, of course, if you are a member of the 'protected cells ONLY' brigade, this is a no-no anyway.

    10. SAFETY - Yes, I said safety. Most protected cells still have the strip on the side from the positive terminal to the PCB at the negative side. As you probably know, damage to the insulating layer can cause a dead short. Having this kind of damage is NOT so far-fetched, as a good drop on sharp rocks could do it. It is also possible for a drop where the the cell lands on the PCB itself to damage the PCB in such a way that it shorts out. In addition to the issue to physical damage, there is the issue of questionable suppliers. Low quality protection circuits or the absence of protection altogether (which may cause the user to be lax since fhey think the cell is protected) could cause problems as well.

    11. WIDE AVAILABILITY OF GOOD CHARGERS - Quality chargers these days do a GREAT job of properly terminating the charge. If you stay away from cheap junk chargers, there just isn't much to worry about as far as chargers overcharging batteries.

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by StorminMatt View Post
    Why don't I use protected cells? There are several reasons ....
    Although there are certain situations I still prefer protected cells (or unprotected cells, for that matter) ... outstanding summary and post, Matt, thanks
    ... is the archimedes peak

  13. #73

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by archimedes View Post
    outstanding summary and post, Matt, thanks
    Yes, very nice!

    I only use protected in my Nitecore EC4SW just because it came with them. But it doesn't matter what you use in that light...it will suck them dry in a couple weeks just sitting off!! Typical Nitecore.
    GOOD TINT!

  14. #74
    ven's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Excellent post Matt, that sums up my thoughts and reasons why I myself mainly use high drain cells.

  15. #75
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Anyone else?

    Assuming protected cell works fine (without problem) in a specific flashlight, why do you use unprotected in same flashlight?

  16. #76
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I'm using protected most of the time while unprotected in flashlights which requires 5-10A but have driver set with Vlow, not allowing to go overdischarged. Sometimes using unprotected in the same flashlight for a test to see how the same flashlight behave.
    Btw, good point Matt.

  17. #77
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    In most situations I avoid protected cells. Right to that moment I had only issues with them when protection kicks in because the light wants more current during its normal operation (the battery discharges, voltage goes down, regulated driver tries to pull more A —> hello darkness).

    Finally two of them have found their real application — they go to a Tecsun S-8800e that goes to my wife Did that because of two points: I have no idea about Tecsun’s built in charger quality; this radio battery nests are so long that some NCR18650GAs barely compress the “-“ spring making me bother about poor contact.
    Last edited by vadimax; 06-08-2018 at 04:44 AM.

  18. #78
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I used to puirchase only protected cells until three or four PCBs failed in about a month. What with that and being left in the dark, I'm all IMR and INR now.
    I take care of my cells and use decent chargers, I see no problem with this.

    May I ask a question? If I lend a light to someone who is uninitiated, how can they do themselves harm with an unprotected cell in a light without LVP? I'm not lending them a charger.
    If they run the cell past safe discharge, the only way to cause a fire is if i recharge it.
    Am I right or wrong, please?
    P

  19. #79
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    I had only issues with them when protection kicks in because the light wants more current during its normal operation (the battery discharges, voltage goes down, regulated driver tries to pull more A —> hello darkness).
    Seems like you never pay attention to question. If protected cell can't provide current demand, then you can't use it. Then we don't have a question. You have to find another solution. You have to use unprotected or even IMR. We all understand that and we are assuming a protected cell works FINE (without any problem) in any specific flashlight. In this case, why use unprotected?
    Please see post #70 and #75

    ===
    Quote Originally Posted by peter yetman View Post
    I used to puirchase only protected cells until three or four PCBs failed in about a month. What with that and being left in the dark, I'm all IMR and INR now.
    If a PCB failed in a cell, you will throw away $10~15 and get a new one. Can you do it if you or your loved one injured from unprotected?
    BTW, you can always carry some extra fully recharged cell if you think you may need them.


    Quote Originally Posted by peter yetman View Post
    I take care of my cells and use decent chargers, I see no problem with this.
    There is no problem with this but is there any problem with a little extra care?
    Quote Originally Posted by peter yetman View Post
    If I lend a light to someone who is uninitiated, how can they do themselves harm with an unprotected cell in a light without LVP? If they run the cell past safe discharge, the only way to cause a fire is if i recharge it.
    If a protected cell has electrical short circuit, there is a chance that PBC block the current flow but the chance for unprotected is ZERO. In this case, BOOM
    Not worth it.
    Last edited by fivemega; 06-09-2018 at 02:17 AM.

  20. #80
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Protected cells are for little girls. Be a man!

  21. #81
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    Protected cells are for little girls. Be a man!
    Yes, be a man but smart man and use protected.
    Nobody can tell voltage of battery while flashlight is switched on and running unless a voltmeter is connected to battery all the time for monitoring battery voltage. A protected cell will do that and automatically shuts down to save the cell from over discharging.
    So no matter if you are a little girl or big man. Be smart.

  22. #82
    Flashaholic* hiuintahs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    For the most part I don't us protected. If I need a button top battery for a flashlight, then its protected. If I do a run time test, then its a protected cell. If I give a 18650 light to a relative or friend that I don't think will pay attention to the logistics of lithium ion, then I make sure its protected cell. Most of my batteries are unprotected. My favorite cell right now is the unprotected 3500mAh NCR18650GA.

  23. #83

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Well, I am certainly limited on my battery knowledge, but I can think of one scenario where running unprotected cells could have an advantage.

    When running certain incandescent setups, protected cells may cause one to have to double/triple tap the switch to order to fire up the bulb. My understanding is unprotected cells would not require this.

  24. #84
    Flashaholic* fivemega's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by DayofReckoning View Post
    running unprotected cells could have an advantage.
    An advantage but three disadvantages.
    Quote Originally Posted by fivemega
    Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by DayofReckoning View Post
    When running certain incandescent setups, protected cells may cause one to have to double/triple tap the switch to order to fire up the bulb.
    This situation is out of our discussion. Double or triple tap is not FINE.

  25. #85
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    If protected and unprotected battery work fine in some application there is still a difference: the protection circuit serves no other function than increasing the entropy of the universe — it generates useless heat That energy could have been used to produce light.

  26. #86

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    I use unprotected. I never wore a helmet on my bike when I was a kid. I regularly drive 5mph over the limit. I eat donuts. I won't be on this planet for long!
    GOOD TINT!

  27. #87
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Quote Originally Posted by markr6 View Post
    I use unprotected. I never wore a helmet on my bike when I was a kid. I regularly drive 5mph over the limit. I eat donuts. I won't be on this planet for long!
    You forgot to mention business that sounds similar to “six”

  28. #88
    Flashaholic id30209's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    Guys i belive it's fun to you but there's a reason why protected and unprotected cells are made and for what use. Using blindly only one type of batteries isn't good for your wallet sometimes.

  29. #89
    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    No one denies protected cells entirely. In situations with too many variables they are good. But we pretend to understand what we are doing. And in this case protection circuit plays the only function of a useless electric ballast that adds to the system complexity and reduces reliability via adding one more point of possible failure.
    Last edited by vadimax; 06-11-2018 at 09:55 AM.

  30. #90

    Default Re: Why Use Unprotected While Protected Works Fine?

    All else being equal, protected cells are:

    - More expensive.

    - Slightly less efficient.

    - Have extra components that can fail, or even potentially short out if damaged.

    I think protected cells make a lot of sense in lights without a dependable low Voltage cut off. But for a quality light with good low Voltage protection (and over Voltage protection if the cells are designed to charge inside the light) built in, I don't see the advantage of protected cells.


    I would turn the question around: Why use protected cells in a light with low Voltage protection?

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