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Thread: The Tint Snob Thread

  1. #361

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    ^^^
    Maratac looks nice. Love that rosy tint!

  2. #362

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by noboneshotdog View Post
    rosy tint!
    me too
    disclaimer, rosyness varies,
    here is an approximate example of where the Lad and Maratac might approximately test out to, if maukka had an actual sample. this is just my guess labels, added to his real science work, but it demonstrates how a 219b lands below the BBL, in the pink, and the 219c lands above the BBL, in the yellow. BBL = neutral tint at that color temperature.. CRI is a separate topic, but it happens all the LEDs are the cream of the new crop in Nichia high CRI offerings.. Note the Maratac is actually 4000k, like the Lad, but still slightly in the pink below the BBL....imho

  3. #363

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Thanks Jon. Is there a headlamp WITH magnetic tailcap with similar color temp as the Maratac?

    I currently have the Armytek Wizard, warm xpl which has a bit of a rosy hue that I am enjoying.

    Edit: preferably 18650.
    Last edited by noboneshotdog; 06-25-2017 at 09:18 AM.

  4. #364

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I first purchased Lumintop copper worm in nichia. Then I bought Tool AAA aluminum CRI, believing it would have the same pleasant tint as the worm, but was rather disappointed. I feel there is less yellow in it. When compared side by side, the aluminum one looks slightly greenish, or maybe I am seeing things.

  5. #365

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by khaleeq View Post
    I first purchased Lumintop copper worm in nichia. Then I bought Tool AAA aluminum CRI, believing it would have the same pleasant tint as the worm, but was rather disappointed. I feel there is less yellow in it. When compared side by side, the aluminum one looks slightly greenish, or maybe I am seeing things.
    does your Aluminum Tool look like the 4500k N219, or the 6000k XP-G2 in this pic? (lights are off, this is just the reflection of the LED)

  6. #366

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    It is the newer nichia 219b version bought from banggood. It is like the one in the center

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    does your Aluminum Tool look like the 4500k N219, or the 6000k XP-G2 in this pic? (lights are off, this is just the reflection of the LED)

  7. #367

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by khaleeq View Post
    It is the newer nichia 219b version bought from banggood. It is like the one in the center
    LED tint does change with different batches and each LED can be slightly different even from the same batch.
    so, sounds like you like the Worm LED better than the Tool LED..
    I invite you to post a side by side photo if you want. It does sound like you qualify for membership in the Tint Snob Club, welcome!
    Comparing LEDs side by side can be enlightening, or disappointing, depending on our expectations, and the time of day when we use our lights (because our brain changes white balance). :-)

  8. #368

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread

    I like nichia 219b tint from 4000k~4500k..

  9. #369

    Default The Tint Snob Thread

    Couple of days ago I noticed something strange on one of my Astrolux A01
    I have more than 10 of them some are New banggood version with PWM and the rest are the original Manker driver No PWM, one of Manker lights are different from all the rest, it has very beautiful tint (pinkish)! The rest of Manker lights are very yellow (don't like)
    The banggood ones is cooler than all the rest

    Not sure what the Cause of that but I am very happy with the special one I wish all the other ones are the same as this one..

    I found my self like the tint on my d25c 2016 model nichia 219b 4500k (egaletac claims) more than others and like tint on the tool also..

  10. #370

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread

    Another thing to mention here

    I bought 2 aluminum tools from Amazon with nichia LEDs months ago, I have noticed that they are Warmer than the tool copper/ti and more pink than the Traditional copper/ti ones

  11. #371

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread

    Here is an example of 3 different N219b
    L to R: Reylight head 4500k N219b 200bin, L11c 4500k N219b 220bin, Worm head 4500k N219b 200bin



    fwiw, the Worm and ReyLight Tool used 4500K LEDs at the time. Some tested at about 4300k actual (normal variation of 5%). Later versions of the Copper Tool, and the current Maratac w Nichia, are using a 4000k N219b, it is slightly yellower, less pink.

    in this pic the 4000k 200bin N219b Maratac is second from left, and the worm 4500k 200bin N219b is second from right
    notice the Maratac is slightly yellower

    far left is 4500k N219b 200bin, far right is L11c w N219b 220bin
    you can see the 220bin N219b is greener than the 200bin N219b examples
    these are the lights in the above photo:


    here is a better example of the difference between the far left and far right N219b lights

    one more to emphasize the pink vs green difference between two 4500k N219b Nichias.


    don't worry too much about white wall comparisons. If you only use one light at a time, your brain will quickly adapt to make it seem white.

    yeah, I like to have my cake and eat it too, when possible.. and for me, Pink is Nirvana..
    otoh, if Im camping and only have the 220bin Nichia, I will still use and enjoy its High CRI, generally more than a low CRI Cool White LED..

    Try to be an open minded, flexible, Tint Snob, if you can.. LOL
    Last edited by jon_slider; 06-29-2017 at 08:18 PM.

  12. #372
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post




    Try to be an open minded, flexible, Tint Snob, if you can.. LOL
    Oooooo, copper. Sorry, easily distracted.

    And yes, that's good advice on open mindedness. I'm learning, but it's a work in progress. It's a struggle not to yell and point exasperatedly at the television every time I see a TV cop inspecting a crime scene with a low cri, blue shifted, cool white LED flashlight. Still working on torchaholic outbursts.
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  13. #373

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Dear jon_slider, thanks for your kind words. If only I knew how to put a photo here. I think I need to revisit the new member Instructions section. I have so far posted around 25 times only on the forum, so maybe it has something to do with my not being able to place a photo here. I have always liked some areas of your interest, like love for no-pwm lights, love for neutral or warmer tints, lights with flat regulation.

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    LED tint does change with different batches and each LED can be slightly different even from the same batch.
    so, sounds like you like the Worm LED better than the Tool LED..
    I invite you to post a side by side photo if you want. It does sound like you qualify for membership in the Tint Snob Club, welcome!
    Comparing LEDs side by side can be enlightening, or disappointing, depending on our expectations, and the time of day when we use our lights (because our brain changes white balance). :-)

  14. #374

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by Modernflame View Post
    Oooooo, copper. Sorry, easily distracted.
    ..
    Still working on torchaholic outbursts.
    me too, me too :-)

    Quote Originally Posted by khaleeq View Post
    If only I knew how to put a photo here..
    1. put the photo on Flickr.com or wherever you keep photos online
    2. copy the image address:


    3. In this forum, use the icon above the red star to open the dialog box into which you paste the image address you copied from your photo site.



    I am becoming a more flexible tint snob. I really like the N219c in this pic. The XPL is considerably more yellow, not my preference, but I use it anyway :-). I also REALLY like the pink Nichias, but, I don't use them at a time of day when they look pink. I hate the 6000k indoors at night, but it is superior during the day, when my brain is used to sunlight.
    Last edited by jon_slider; 07-12-2017 at 05:40 PM.

  15. #375

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    This isn't a response to anything there, but I figured it would be the perfect place instead of making a new thread. Just a thought...

    The old “white wall” test and people making excuses for bad beams or tints…not valid!

    I get it…we ALL use our lights in real life. Although some may think so after visiting CPF, we don’t all sit around and shoot white walls 100% of the time. Some do a lot more than others, but it’s a simple way to analyze a light. I think that’s only prudent after spending $50, $100 or $500 on something that others would get by with just fine at $8.

    - Do people in [insert any nice car] forums drop $50,000 on a car, and then say “I don’t notice it in real life” if the car makes a loud whistling or clicking sound outside (say, a loose panel). No. They’ll have a 32 page thread over-analyzing every aspect of the most seemingly insignificant, superficial things. And they should.

    - Do photography enthusiasts spend $4000 on a camera and $1500 on a lens and say “I don’t notice the distortion. I don’t shoot brick walls all day long”. No, they actually do the same thing we do.

    - Why use USB 3.0 when USB 2.0 works just fine? I can just go make a cup of coffee and do something else while I transfer files at half the speed. Doesn’t work like that.

    When you pay for performance, you want to make sure you’re getting what you paid for…and more. If an amazing tint exists in one light, but not in a similar spec'd light, it just bothers me since I know it IS possible. To buy a flashlight with a "pretty good" or so-so tint, even if its fine outdoors, isn’t something I’ll defend.
    GOOD TINT!

  16. #376

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I agree Mark. White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.

    I will conditionally make excuses for lights not being perfect, however. I don't generally expect my $20-30 lights to be free from beam artifacts and tint shifts. Higher price lights also often aren't if they're making compromises to maximize output, keep a high end body material like copper or titanium reasonably priced, etc.

    It's always a process of weighing what's important to you versus what is actually on the market.

  17. #377

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    mark6, your mailbox is full, I tried to PM you.. PM me when you are ready and I will send the message

  18. #378
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.
    Nice post from one who actually understands the nature of the concept.

    It's really become an old guys tale to actually think that there are people that do nothing other than stare at white walls with their flashlights.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

  19. #379
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    I agree Mark. White wall hunting is a basic check that lets you see the light in a semi-controlled environment. It can provide a useful understanding of the nature of a light's output, which depending on how you use it, could help you understand what you're seeing in a non-white wall situation. If you're checking on your child at night, for example, and it strikes you that their skin looks a bit green, knowing if your light has a green hue to it may allay the concern the child might be ill.

    I will conditionally make excuses for lights not being perfect, however. I don't generally expect my $20-30 lights to be free from beam artifacts and tint shifts. Higher price lights also often aren't if they're making compromises to maximize output, keep a high end body material like copper or titanium reasonably priced, etc.

    It's always a process of weighing what's important to you versus what is actually on the market.
    Agreed. Well put. I've long since given up trying to explain the concept to non-torchoholics. I would only add that outdoor testing is equally important. It's the reason why we scour the forum for a variety of beam shots before purchasing a light.
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
    J.R.R. Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring

  20. #380

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by markr6 View Post
    This isn't a response to anything there, but I figured it would be the perfect place instead of making a new thread. Just a thought...

    The old “white wall” test and people making excuses for bad beams or tints…not valid!

    When you pay for performance, you want to make sure you’re getting what you paid for…and more. If an amazing tint exists in one light, but not in a similar spec'd light, it just bothers me since I know it IS possible. To buy a flashlight with a "pretty good" or so-so tint, even if its fine outdoors, isn’t something I’ll defend.
    I would have to disagree a little bit with the “white wall” test aides mentioned. It’s a great way to get a general idea of tint, but it can also be quite deceptive or misleading too. A person’s eyes, perception and sensitivity to different colors/tints, the ambient light in the room, the shade of “white” on the wall, etc are all variables to consider. A warmer light may tend to cast a more yellow/golden tint that might be pleasing to some while offputting to others. I personally find 4000k preferable to 5000k now, as that seems too “cool” for me. Some might find 4000k too “warm” or yellow for them and prefer the 4500-5000k range. A light that performs great on a white wall test may also perform worse outdoors on green and brown colors. I have experienced this first hand in using my better “white wall” lights vs my warmer ones. My warmest one is a 4000k ZL with 93-95cri and it does better outdoors with wood grain and green grass/leaves than my Nichia does. The Nichia is a better white wall light, but my real world use is primarily outdoors and that’s where I want the best performance.

    There are so many factors involved that, imo, the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.

  21. #381
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    ...the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.
    You're overthinking it, yet nailed it exactly in the first line I quoted here, in your own post.

    It has always been simply one of the tools in the box for assessing a light. It's really the people that make fun of the whole subject of white walls who totally miss the fact that no one is testing lights. They're simply assessing the lights characteristics, and a wall is a great way to see if there are noticeable artifacts and color zoning, then it's on to other backgrounds, outdoors, etc.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

  22. #382

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    You're overthinking it, yet nailed it exactly in the first line I quoted here, in your own post.

    It has always been simply one of the tools in the box for assessing a light. It's really the people that make fun of the whole subject of white walls who totally miss the fact that no one is testing lights. They're simply assessing the lights characteristics, and a wall is a great way to see if there are noticeable artifacts and color zoning, then it's on to other backgrounds, outdoors, etc.
    The problem is that not everyone sees it the way you mentioned. If it doesn’t pass a white wall test then there are some who won’t test out or examine it in other ways.

  23. #383
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    The problem is that not everyone sees it the way you mentioned. If it doesn’t pass a white wall test then there are some who won’t test out or examine it in other ways.
    Sure, there will always be those who over-value a singular approach to determining whether a given light is worth further consideration but talking in generality of 'white wall hunting', it has always been used as a terminology to demean other CPF'ers in order to appear to be the more evolved flashaholic.

    I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough.
    Marduke - Solitaire...I've seen matches which are brighter AND have a longer runtime. 光陰矢の如し

  24. #384

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    fwiw, I don't need High CRI to see green plants well
    I do need High CRI to see the palm of my hand, the cooking of my food at camp, the skin tone of my lover, and other things that contain red, with realistic color.

    in fact, I will admit that after being a 4-4500k snob for a while, I have a new appreciation for cool white. It is actually Better at showing green plants than High CRI. Cool white is also better for working on a car during the day, and it is brighter than my High CRI option.

    My conclusion is to have Both.

    I do find white wall tests very informing when comparing beams side by side, and I agree that the people that say things like "I don't notice in actual use" are just missing the point, changing the subject, and also at times, ridiculing someone who cares.

    Recently I posted a number of tests of a V11R, which has very wide brightness fluctuations on a Light Meter. People without a light meter can NOT see changes of 60 lumens easily. Does that mean it does not matter to me, no. Does it mean it may not matter to them, sure. Do I care if my battery drains faster because my light turned itself up by 60 lumens, yes.

    There is no One PURE White. That is a misconception. In fact, there is White at 6000k, and White at 4000k, and at every other CCT, depending on the white balance of ones brain.

    If I have been outdoors in the sun, 6000k seems white, but if I have been indoors in the evening under incandescent, 4000k looks white. Here is an illustration of that concept:

    When the white balance is set to the 6000k cool white led on the right, it looks white. Notice the pink 4000k N219b in the. middle, in the next photo it will be white


    now white balance is set to 4000k, so the pink Nichia looks white


    (I removed the 6000k so my auto white balance iPhone would choose the 4000k for white balance.) Notice the very same light that looks pink during 6000k white balance, looks white during 4000k white balance. People who prefer 4000k, are most definitely NOT using it to work on a car in the sunlight. And people who prefer 6000k, are certainly not using it as a night light, for which 3000k is far superior, even better than 4000k.

    Ive spent a lot of time demonstrating things that some people claim do not matter to them, PWM, circuit noise, brightness flux, green tint, pink tint, blue tint, warm, neutral, cool, etc. It is often the people who want to change the conversation, that will bring up comments like, "I don't notice in actual use".

    I also "don't notice in actual use" the green tint in a Cool White light used to work on a car in the sun. There is plenty of ambient CRI to offset the pathetic CRI of a Cool White LED. But after dark, I again become a High CRI Neutral White Tint snob, I put away the Cool White, and put a High CRI 4-4500k light in my pocket.

    then again, If Im trying to spot a bear at 100 yards, Cool White rules, because of the brightness. But if Im inspecting Bear Scat at close range, and want to know if its been eating any berries with red seeds, then High CRI, which will usually Not be in the Cool White Color Temperature range, will be my preference.

    Do whatever makes you happy. Buy lots of different lights, use the ones that work best for you at the time. There is no one single color temperature, tint, and CRI that works equally well as a nightlight, scat reader, spotlight, or mechanics light. Some situations call for high brightness, and CRI is secondary, some situations call for low brightness, and CRI becomes more important. Some applications call for Cool, Warm, or Neutral White. Each has their place.

    A white wall will help demonstrate the differences.

    Here is a photo comparing two 3000k LEDs (far left top and bottom), one has a Magenta tint, one has a Yellow tint. I prefer the magenta, but, if Im only using the Yellow one at the time, my brain will adjust itself to make that OK.



    At my current stage of learning I like a choice of 3 different color temperatures, depending on time of use.

    Pure White Tint is NOT a specific CCT, it is simply any LED that lands on the BBL.. I wish they called it the White Body Line, so people would understand that Whiteness is an absence of green or magenta tint. It is any CCT that lands on the ideal radiator line, shown as a black line in this pic:


    some LEDs land above the "Pure White (black line) Radiator line". Typically they are Cool White Cree LEDs, optimized for brightness. Our eyes are especially sensitive to green, so an LED with a lot of green will seem brighter. Its CRI may not be ideal, but it will spot bear at 50 yards, better than a 4000k Nichia.

    Courses for horses. :-)

  25. #385

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    Sure, there will always be those who over-value a singular approach to determining whether a given light is worth further consideration but talking in generality of 'white wall hunting', it has always been used as a terminology to demean other CPF'ers in order to appear to be the more evolved flashaholic.

    I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough.
    Still, the point remains as I originally stated, that white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light. Furthermore, I’ve read many posts over the years from CPF posters who simply shine a light on a wall and perform no further testing. It’s not meant to demean other posters but simply highlight the fact that white wall hunting is a small part of evaluation.

    A poll phrased that way would be meaningless. A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.

  26. #386
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Jon, pretty much bang on with my uses and thoughts. I have not evolved into 3000k as of yet, still a little too cosy/warm for me generally. But 4000-6000k covers most applications, 5000k being bang in the middle seems to cover all well. Granted not best at every time of day, but good enough for me if makes sense( i could live with 5000k only) . In the last year or so, my taste has gone warmer, 4000k i really enjoy, usually more in the evening. Daytime 5000k is spot on, also works well in artificial light(think factory). I will still swap things about in work, so 4000-5000k gets used daily. Todays flavour was 219b 4500k, in mule and triple and optic form.

    I certainly agree on how we see different ct/tints and how our eyes get "contaminated" by other ct's. Last night i used my sportac xp-g2 which is a cool white. Yet it did not look as cool as last time I used it , and presume the prior use of the xp-l2 easy white made it so.

    If i shine the xp-l2 easy white next to a 219c 4000k(yellow side), the 219c 4000k almost looks white due to the more yellow in the xp-l2 EW. Yet shining the 219c 4000k next to a 4500k 219b, the 219c looks yellow. .............not easy to put into words! But tint is exaggerated by the other tints and changes the way my eyes see's them.

    Of course i enjoy said lights the best used on their own, no mixing etc as my eyes adapt quick. Just out of curiosity i wanted to see the changes in front of me.

    The above comments come from an unscientific experiment by unscientific eyes

  27. #387

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.
    A white wall test is a way to Illustrate an observation that a user makes in actual use. IF they are bothered by tint and beam issues, the white wall test spares us all from reading tons of text, describing the user experience, and quantifies the issue so it can be communicated easily.

    Nobody JUST shines their light on a wall and then decides to return the light. Shining on a wall is a way to Explain Why they are returning the light. There will still be people who settle for what they got, and won't take the time to return it.

    What I see as folly, is to return a light for replacement with another light that will still use the same LED, and will still have the same tint. If the Green Tint of an LED bothers someone, Change LEDs. Don't just swap for another one that has the same tint binning, and the same tendency to land above the "White" (why do they call it black?) Body Line.

    It sounds like you think white wall tests are somehow not valid. I disagree, photos of white wall tests, Add information in a way that is easily communicated to people that are not in the same room :-). There are many people who have not found a way to get a decent photo to show what they see. That does not mean all photos are invalid.

    There are many tools to evaluate the color of an LED, and a white wall comparison is one of them. If I had a spectrometer like maukka, that would be even better, which is why I Love his tests. He does not need a white wall, his instrument is even more detailed and sophisticated. Otoh, a white wall comparison (of more than one beam at a time) is definitely Very informing, to me. OTOH, I consider single beam photos, relatively useless, as they are subject to different white balance adjustments, than other photos. I Have To see more than one beam in a photo at the same time, so I can begin to make a useful comparison, and interpretation, of what the image captures.

    Quote Originally Posted by ven View Post
    If i shine the xp-l2 easy white next to a 219c 4000k(yellow side), the 219c 4000k almost looks white due to the more yellow in the xp-l2 EW. Yet shining the 219c 4000k next to a 4500k 219b, the 219c looks yellow. .............not easy to put into words! But tint is exaggerated by the other tints and changes the way my eyes see's them.


    well put and I agree
    if you look at the spectrograph I posted, you will see that maukka confirms that a 4000k 219c has tint above the "White" Body Line, in the Yellow Tint zone. I agree this yellow tint will get "filtered out", and our brain will "whiten" it IF there is no other reference light for my brain to integrate.

    It IS very surprising how wide a tint tolerance I have, when only using one light.

    brightness is another important variable. I Love 3000k at under 10 lumens in full dark, but I would never try to get 500 lumens from a 3000k source, for that I will, like you, prefer something closer too 5000k..

    bright and cool
    dim and warm

    candle color for candle brightness
    sun color for sun brightness

    and I agree that 5000k High CRI is a very nice option to span a range of needs. slightly too cool in some cases, slightly too warm in others, but a very good general use CCT..

    Choice of CCT is really dependent on the CCT adaptation of the brain seeing it. :-)
    Last edited by jon_slider; 07-17-2017 at 11:18 AM.

  28. #388

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    I would have to disagree a little bit with the “white wall” test aides mentioned. It’s a great way to get a general idea of tint, but it can also be quite deceptive or misleading too. A person’s eyes, perception and sensitivity to different colors/tints, the ambient light in the room, the shade of “white” on the wall, etc are all variables to consider. A warmer light may tend to cast a more yellow/golden tint that might be pleasing to some while offputting to others. I personally find 4000k preferable to 5000k now, as that seems too “cool” for me. Some might find 4000k too “warm” or yellow for them and prefer the 4500-5000k range. A light that performs great on a white wall test may also perform worse outdoors on green and brown colors. I have experienced this first hand in using my better “white wall” lights vs my warmer ones. My warmest one is a 4000k ZL with 93-95cri and it does better outdoors with wood grain and green grass/leaves than my Nichia does. The Nichia is a better white wall light, but my real world use is primarily outdoors and that’s where I want the best performance. There are so many factors involved that, imo, the white wall test is just one method of determining what works best for someone. For me, the best test is using it outdoors and seeing which lights render colors the best. A white wall test is useless when out in the woods... and other factors like runtime, how well trail markers are discerned, etc are far more important.
    Performs "better" outdoors in what sense? It could just as easily be imbalanced spectral output leading to oversaturated colors in some parts of the spectrum. That's a personal preference for some.

  29. #389

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    A white wall test is a way to Illustrate an observation that a user makes in actual use. IF they are bothered by tint and beam issues, the white wall test spares us all from reading tons of text, describing the user experience, and quantifies the issue so it can be communicated easily.

    Nobody JUST shines their light on a wall and then decides to return the light. Shining on a wall is a way to Explain Why they are returning the light. There will still be people who settle for what they got, and won't take the time to return it.

    What I see as folly, is to return a light for replacement with another light that will still use the same LED, and will still have the same tint. If the Green Tint of an LED bothers someone, Change LEDs. Don't just swap for another one that has the same tint binning, and the same tendency to land above the "White" (why do they call it black?) Body Line.

    It sounds like you think white wall tests are somehow not valid. I disagree, photos of white wall tests, Add information in a way that is easily communicated to people that are not in the same room :-). There are many people who have not found a way to get a decent photo to show what they see. That does not mean all photos are invalid.

    There are many tools to evaluate the color of an LED, and a white wall comparison is one of them. If I had a spectrometer like maukka, that would be even better, which is why I Love his tests. He does not need a white wall, his instrument is even more detailed and sophisticated. Otoh, a white wall comparison (of more than one beam at a time) is definitely Very informing, to me. OTOH, I consider single beam photos, relatively useless, as they are subject to different white balance adjustments, than other photos. I Have To see more than one beam in a photo at the same time, so I can begin to make a useful comparison, and interpretation, of what the image captures.
    1. The first two bolded statements I'd have to disagree with. I've been around CPF for quite awhile and I've seen many users who post beamshots and talk about how they pointed the light on a wall, didn't like it, and immediately returned it with no additional testing/usage. For those people, a white wall test is the ONLY test they use. Search through the threads and you'll quickly see what I'm talking about. That was my point, to use one single criteria and automatically write off a light and return it is not a good evaluation of a light, imo, unless it is so horrendous (like an ugly green, purple, etc). The point isn't to criticize such posters but merely to bring to light (no pun intended) that some do actually open a box, shine it on the wall and return it if they see any flaws in the light. This is something which happens not just with flashlights but many high-end products or hobby specific products.

    2. My exact words were "white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light." I see white wall tests as one of many ways for the end user to determine if it meets their expectations. If I open up a new light, shine it on the wall and it has an ugly purple or green tint (not subtle but very distinct) then I'll quickly be sending it back. If I open a light and it has a subtle green, yellow tint I will do further testing in my typical daily usage to see if I find it bothersome or not. Your last bolded statement is exactly my point; there are many ways to evaluate the tint and the white wall test is one out of many.

    18650, one of the tests I like to use my lights on is a walk through the woods. Spotting trail markers, encountering fog or snow, colors on vegetation, wood grain, etc are some of the ways I will use a light. There are cases where a warmer light will a slight yellow tint, like my ZL, will more accurately render some of these things or do a bit better in fog than my 4500k Nichia 219b. Sometimes trail markers can be difficult to spot when hiking, especially if faded, and having a light that makes that color stand out from the tree bark can be a lifesaver. I find my 4000k Cree with 93-95 is slightly better at this than my Nichia and much better than any of my other lights.

  30. #390

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I agree with many of the points and comparison photos made by jon_slider ven and others. Indeed our eyes and brains translate whatever light source we have at the time adjust the way we translate colors and make the best of it. I like white wall tests (WWT) for extra information and they have their place. The auto white balance however creates a floating frame of reference and any serious choices or opinions made from it would be a strange thing to do.

    I used WWT to show myself how much variance there is between the "NW" in all the ThruNite models I have. It was quite enlightening (ok...pun intended) to visualize in real life, but in taking a picture there is a loss in accuracy and translation due to auto white balance and lack of a benchmark.

    If we are talking about tint, the BBL's benchmark is the incandescent bulb. So for me when I put up a WWT picture to illustrate tint between any LEDs, the incandescent has to be included to provide that fixed frame of reference.

    Only on CPF could there be such differing opinions (some strange and strong ones too) on flashlights....wonderful.
    THRUNITE Archer1AV2|TiS|TH20|TN4A Hi...all in neutral white
    YUJILEDS BC Series 95+HighCRI modded Mini-Mag2AAA
    XTARVC4, LCTBC500, Amaloops, 1999MAG-LITE 2D Incandescent(glass lens)

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