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Thread: The Tint Snob Thread

  1. #391

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    This is the tint snob thread. So when I shine my high CRI 4000K Nichia (Malkoff MD2) on a white wall and see a nice white tint, I'm happy. When I shine a 4000K Zebralight on a wall and see yellow, I'm upset. High CRI or not, it's not something I want to live with, no matter how good it looked outside (it looks pretty darn nice, actually). Part of it is the inconsistency between two 4000K lights that drives me crazy. Yes, everything I just said there is 37% insanity.
    GOOD TINT!

  2. #392
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    Still, the point remains as I originally stated, that white wall hunting is only one out of many considerations when evaluating tint and usefulness of a new light. Furthermore, I’ve read many posts over the years from CPF posters who simply shine a light on a wall and perform no further testing. It’s not meant to demean other posters but simply highlight the fact that white wall hunting is a small part of evaluation.

    A poll phrased that way would be meaningless. A better poll would be one asking if a person would return a light that exhibited beam artifacts or a tint issues on a white wall, and no other testing done.
    Apparently here just for the argument when you disagree with me using the exact points in my post which you consider yourself to be contradicting.

    A better poll would be the one I mentioned, gaining the same results, but with your wording instead. Right.

    Fact of the matter is markr6 made some excellent points, jonslider made what should have been the definitive post on white walls worldwide and yet on you go...

    Just for the record, my belief is that there are two kinds of CPF'ers: Ones who admit they shine their lights at white walls and ones who do it but make fun of others, then go back to looking at pictures of beamshots taken against a backdrop of white walls.
    Last edited by kaichu dento; 07-17-2017 at 04:13 PM.
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  3. #393

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    snowlover thanks for the exploration, I don't want to single you out as someone to debate, in fact, I think we are on the same side of the table :-)
    Most of all I absolutely respect that you have found a light that works for your needs and application. Great to hear your descriptions and observations. Thanks for the food for thought.

    LeanBurn, I also totally agree that auto white balance changes the tint of an image. That is why I intentionally include a cool white LED in my photos. It sets the white balance.

    I also use an incandescent light at home, it is 3000k. I like to shine my flashlights on the ceiling near it, to compare how much cooler my LEDs are. All these tests are informing because they show relative tint. Like you, I find whitewall particularly informing when comparing identical model LEDs, as there can be some surprising variations..

    this group surprised me, they are all 10180 N219b lights, Astrolux M01, M02, M03.. some pretty wild tint bin variation on the middle one in particular:




    btw, my white wall studio is actually a piece of printer paper folded at 90 degrees.. recommended :-)

    next I compare two of the 10180 N219b LEDs to my Maratac w Nichia.. surprise!

    Not all Nichias are pink, at all :-)


    fwiw, I dont post every photo I shoot, Im not a pro, Ive just a few steps that help me capture an image that approximately shows what I see, and more particularly, because Im a 4000k N219b snob (that is to say I have the most experience with it), I really like beam shots that contain a 4000k Nichia for my reference.

    thanks to everyone contributing, really appreciate the chance to test and explore ideas together.
    respect

    ps
    the only meaning any of these colors have, to me, is in the context of my experience using them. its not that I like the purple beam, particularly, but I prefer it to the green beam. I find the Maratac a little more yellow than I would like, but I tolerate it because of a number of other features I find value in, the size, the efficiency, the material, the circuit..

    I can definitely see that just returning a light for being pink purple or green, misses the context of actual use, that could be so much more informing. The colors then are really only a reference point, to compare actual experience with.

    So, "actual use" testing is definitely equally, or more important, than white wall comparisons.. both are useful, its not an OR choice, its an And choice.. kind of like buying lights :-)
    Last edited by jon_slider; 07-17-2017 at 06:08 PM.

  4. #394
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    @jon_slider. I've thoroughly enjoyed your soap box stump speeches on beam tint and CRI. You've helped me to warm up to cool white, if you'll endure the pun. The only part I couldn't understand was the bit about green leaves and high CRI. I've always thought hi CRI works better on green as well, but my observation may be influenced by the poor rendition of nearby browns (tree bark, dirt, etc.) when using a typical ~70 CRI CW flashlight.
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
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  5. #395

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by kaichu dento View Post
    Apparently here just for the argument when you disagree with me using the exact points in my post which you consider yourself to be contradicting.

    A better poll would be the one I mentioned, gaining the same results, but with your wording instead. Right.

    Fact of the matter is markr6 made some excellent points, jonslider made what should have been the definitive post on white walls worldwide and yet on you go...

    Just for the record, my belief is that there are two kinds of CPF'ers: Ones who admit they shine their lights at white walls and ones who do it but make fun of others, then go back to looking at pictures of beamshots taken against a backdrop of white walls.
    No, just pointing out an observation. Your original statement was "I highly doubt that a poll asking if anyone used a white wall as a sole test of a lights usefulness to them would get even a single positive vote. Over-hyped talking point that can't be put away soon enough." If a poll was phrased and said "Do you use a white wall as a sole test of a light's usefulness" then very few to none would admit to that. However, if a poll question was phrased "Would you return a light that exhibited beam artifacts/tint issues on a white wall?" the results would be much different. It is the same question, yes, but in any language the context and way a question is asked can have an impact on the results and the perception of those reading the question.

    I have a feeling you have not carefully read my posts. I several times mentioned the usefulness of white wall testing and that I do it myself, and take beam shots as well. If you've seen me post before, you'll see that I've done quite a few white wall beam shots. They certainly have their place but shouldn't be the sole criteria, and as jon mentioned, I mostly agree with him.

    Furthermore, tint is subjective, so really any test whether on white walls, in the woods, or anywhere else will be based on a user's personal experience and preferences. Some users here use white wall testing as their sole criteria for determining if the light meets their standards or not. Is there anything wrong with that? Absolutely not, that is a personal choice/preference. Would it be better for a person to go through a wide range of tests and usage scenarios to further examine the usefulness of said light? In my opinion, yes. Mark's point is valid, if he shines it on the wall and it is so off-putting that he can't stand it, then he needs to get rid of it. I mentioned previously that the only time I consider the white wall test as the sole criteria is if the perceived tint is so horrible (green, purple, yellow, etc) that a person won't be happy with it. However, in a situation where it has a subtle tint of yellow, green, etc then the person should evaluate further with other usage scenarios and tests to determine the usefulness of the light.

    Jon summarized the same thoughts I have quite well below:
    ps
    the only meaning any of these colors have, to me, is in the context of my experience using them. its not that I like the purple beam, particularly, but I prefer it to the green beam. I find the Maratac a little more yellow than I would like, but I tolerate it because of a number of other features I find value in, the size, the efficiency, the material, the circuit..

    I can definitely see that just returning a light for being pink purple or green, misses the context of actual use, that could be so much more informing. The colors then are really only a reference point, to compare actual experience with.

    So, "actual use" testing is definitely equally, or more important, than white wall comparisons.. both are useful.
    Last edited by snowlover91; 07-17-2017 at 07:06 PM.

  6. #396

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by Modernflame View Post
    I've always thought hi CRI works better on green as well
    I recently discovered that my 70 CRI cool white flashlight did a better job on green leaves than my favorite neutral high cri nichia. I was as surprised as you are.. there was no bark, wood, nor dirt involved, just pure green canopy.. the cool was more lush.. strange but true.. look at the green spectrum of these LEDs:

    xpg2 6000k 71 cri


    N219A 4300k 87 Cri


    both can do green
    but when dirt and bark come into the picture, then yes, High Cri has a big advantage:


    you can see though the green actually pops more on the cool white side (because it fails to show the reds and browns in the leaf maybe)
    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    tint is subjective
    I agree. But it bothers me when people "seem" to disagree, until I find find a rhyme to their reason.

    that is why Im investing my efforts into emphasizing that the subjective prefference might actually be more universally held in common, IF similar mindsets, our in this case, white balance of the brain, are in play.

    example, a guy who drives a truck to service a boiler in a basement will enter the dark and will be glad to use his 6000k 500 lumen light, for about half an hour, after which he might switch to his 4000k Nichia and be perfectly happy spending the next hour underground with 100 Lumens of neutral white light..

    a guy who works at Home Depot, and has to go into a back room to find something, 4000k, probably not. Inside my camper, close range, 10 lumens and a Beer, not likely to be 6000k.. get my drift? People aren't that different, its their environment that varies, and their preference is based on where they are using the lights.. and at what lumen levels..

    kind words are always appreciated, Im also grateful when my typing echoes other's thinking.. thanks :-)
    I also appreciate your forgiveness when I test my thoughts in long wordy posts, only later to learn I disagree with myself.. LOL

    whirled peas

  7. #397
    kaichu dento's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by snowlover91 View Post
    It is the same question, yes, but in any language the context and way a question is asked can have an impact on the results and the perception of those reading the question.
    Yes, and like you, I find a lot of valuable content in jon_slider's posts.

    We share some views and differ on others, just like the rest of humanity. At least we've got lights...
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  8. #398
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    I recently discovered that my 70 CRI cool white flashlight did a better job on green leaves than my favorite neutral high cri nichia.

    both can do green
    but when dirt and bark come into the picture, then yes, High Cri has a big advantage:


    you can see though the green actually pops more on the cool white side (because it fails to show the reds and browns in the leaf maybe)
    Thanks for the photos. I'm trying, but I still struggle to see what you mean. Maybe the green seems to pop because there is a higher contrast with the bark? I'm going to play around in the woods tonight and find a green canopy with no nearby browns.
    “May it be a light to you in dark places, when all other lights go out.”
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  9. #399
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I also notice the xp-g2 6000k has pretty fairly accurate colours. For a cool white 6000k, it is.......how can I put it, easily tolerable maybe. I just find my eyes welcome a slightly warmer cast generally, and certainly in the evening.

    An older quad xp-g2 5000k off vinh(CQvn) is still a pleasure to use today as it was several years back. When used in work , with cooler artificial light, it makes it look on the warm side of neutral=perfect for me!

    Back to the 6000k xp-g2, I am pretty made up I have tried it again of late(you know all these nichia's and xpl HI 4000-5000k spoil us). I don't like p60's not in use(left to one side by having a preferred ). So at least now I can enjoy using it again, all be it with selected aplications(more in day time).

  10. #400

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Speaking of XP-G2, whatever Don is using in the Haiku pleasantly surprised me. I have to find out what bin it is.
    White wall hunting is not a very good indicator of a flashlight’s potential, not sure where it got it’s popularity. - DB Customs

  11. #401
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by Ozythemandias View Post
    Speaking of XP-G2, whatever Don is using in the Haiku pleasantly surprised me. I have to find out what bin it is.

    I was never a big fan from the start with xp-g2 being honest, throwy little LED though(maybe because i am more biased towards flood than throw). Over time things have swapped around and now appreciate all this time on ,how good they are. De-domed it can not be beaten all this time on, granted not the highest lumen/output but still a force to be reckoned with. The 4000k in malkoffs is real nice, 5000k i have in a quad, to 6000k in a sportac triple to name some..............all great in their own way.

  12. #402

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I find the 6000k Low CRI of the XPG2 tolerable outdoors during the day, when there is lots of ambient sunlight to add the missing reds. Most of all when working on a greasy old car motor, I care less about the color, just need the brightness.

    But before anyone gets the wrong impression, the Low CRI Cool White still sucks at showing reds, and is not my first pick at night for close range. I only tolerate cool white when I need the brightness and don't care about the green tint.

    A simple demonstration of how bad the CRI of a 6000k LED really is, can be seen by shining the 6000k light at the palm of your hand. Zombie, Dead, Pale, pathetic, come to mind.

    When it comes to showing realistic skin tones, the N219b High Cri options are FAR superior. Try it yourself. Shine a 6000k Low CRI at the palm of your hand, then do the same with a High CRI Nichia..

  13. #403
    kaichu dento's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    Shine a ... at the palm of your hand...
    This is the first thing I do with any light, then I go looking for leaves, followed by items with red or orange, and finally, look for the beam pattern and throw/flood transitions.

    Yep, palm of hand test for me too.
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  14. #404
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.

    Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.
    Last edited by joelbnyc; 11-14-2017 at 05:23 PM.

  15. #405

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by joelbnyc View Post
    Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint?
    ...
    a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI.
    ...
    and a side clicky.
    My Beta QRv2 started my love affair with Nichia 219b LEDs, it ruined me for Cool White and low CRI. So Ive ended up having people modify lights for me, to LEDs Im interested in.

    I had a Mecarmy PT-18 light modified to 4000k n219b 90+CRI LEDs, and it has a beautiful pink cast. I no longer have my Beta, so I can't show you a direct comparison.
    this is where we got the 219b LEDs, its a very good batch imo

    You could choose a 14500 version, the PT-14, if you prefer. It does have a sideswitch..

    As far as I know Zebras are not easy to modify, and I have never heard of one with a Nichia.. If you need help with modding, out member gunga offers that service...

    here is a thread about the PT series, with pics

  16. #406
    Flashaholic* Derek Dean's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    As far as I know Zebras are not easy to modify, and I have never heard of one with a Nichia.. If you need help with modding, out member gunga offers that service...
    Ah yes, they ARE difficult to mod. Fortunately, I had an older model SC600 with the removable bezel, however, my understanding is that it was still a bear to mod, but here it is, still my most used and loved light to date (skip to post #35 to see the finished mod):
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...-Carlco-Optics

  17. #407
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by joelbnyc View Post
    Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.

    Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.

    You will struggle getting anything rosy from ZL as Mr ZL is not a nichia fan ................unfortunately. Now my sc63w which is an xhp35 and 4500k, with 80+cri has a nice "tint" to it. Hard to describe, hint of warmth and a creamy to it. The xp-l2 easywhite does lean towards yellow to my eyes, yet the 4500k not as much as the 4000k i have. The 4500k is quite pleasing in the sc53w . Thats just my experience, and ZL is well known for the tint lottery.

  18. #408

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by joelbnyc View Post
    Does anyone know of a decent zebralight-ish side-clicky 1x14500/AA or 1x18650, between 3500 and 4500K, that would have <BBL tint? I guess I am looking for equivalent of 4R, 4U. 5R. 5A1, 5A4, 5D1, 5D4 or 6A.

    Looking for a tint roughly like my Prometheus Beta QRv2 Nichia 219B 4500K on the left. And preferably high CRI. Spending way too much time searching here. Maybe a Convoy S2/+ or Jaxman E2L (dont see 4000K/4500K Nichia 219B version of E2L currently) is closest I've found, but I want smaller and a side clicky.
    Not quite - The Nitecore Tip CRI is reportedly 3500K and side-clicky, but in a different form factor. It's got a built-in battery almost equivalent to a 14500 cell.

  19. #409
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    All 4500k, left sc63w xhp35 4500k, middle sc53w xp-l2 easywhite 4500k and haiku 219b 4500k

    Does not show on the sc63w, but there is actually a hint of rosy in the beam, presumably down to the lens coating! Either way, in use its become one of my fav's.............very nice. The 4500k haiku in use comes across as the most pure out of my 219b's(have many).


  20. #410
    Flashaholic joelbnyc's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by iamlucky13 View Post
    The Nitecore Tip CRI is reportedly 3500K and side-clicky
    I don't love those photon-type key lights, but I might try it on keychain. I prefer swappable batteries, though. I should get my 360lm 10440 Ultratac K18 SS modded.

    Quote Originally Posted by Derek Dean View Post
    http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?366586-Zebralight-SC600-Modded-with-Triple-Nichia-219-and-Carlco-Optics
    Awesome My precious indeed, hehe.

    Quote Originally Posted by jon_slider View Post
    My Beta QRv2 started my love affair with Nichia 219b LEDs, it ruined me for Cool White and low CRI.
    A modded Mecarmy looks cool for a coat pocket outdoor light, but for this purpose I'm looking for length <95mm, head diameter <26mm, to replace my Manker E11 NW, which is 83mm x 20mm. An sc53w/c, sc63w, or sc64w/c would be perfect form factor. Tints don't look bad in your shots. Lottery, though. Also no Cree's have good R9 value, from what I've seen.

    CW is the one thing I too can't tolerate anymore, except in a long thrower just-for-the-sake-of-throw.

    As for tints, my brain adapts to a slightly green NW Cree unless I'm looking for green. But sometimes I look for green. And they don't render colors quite as well as something with a better R9 value. I am going to buy a 7A binned 3500K XM-L2 or XP-L Convoy S2. 7A is entirely < BBL. But a 120mm long rear-click is not my ideal.

    And while the Nichia 219B is great compared to most flashlight LED's, it isn't the be-all/end-all. After learning about TM-30 and shortcomings of CRI (thanks Maukka for posting the TM-30 video), I don't put a ton of stock in CRI alone.

    Nichia's high CRI lights have R9 values in 70's, great compared to other flashlight led's. But as people have mentioned, there is better tech- those yuji's, or I think better still:

    Xicato Artist Series, R9 value of 96

    About better color fidelity than a halogen. Supposedly these are some of the best color rendering LEDs, with best TM-30 metrics, on the market.


    Those Xicato lamps are of course for fixed usages, with Zhaga-compatible holders. If Watts = Amps x Volts, they require 30-40 Volts.

    But the point is, the technology is out there. There might be some emitter like this that could actually be put into a flashlight.
    Last edited by joelbnyc; 11-16-2017 at 06:43 PM.

  21. #411
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by joelbnyc View Post
    And while the Nichia 219B is great compared to most flashlight LED's, it isn't the be-all/end-all. After learning about TM-30 and shortcomings of CRI (thanks Maukka for posting the TM-30 video), I don't put a ton of stock in CRI alone.

    Nichia's high CRI lights have R9 values in 70's, great compared to other flashlight led's. But as people have mentioned, there is better tech- those yuji's, or I think better still
    It's all about what bin you can get man. Nichia's can have far higher R9's then 70. The 219B SW40 R9080's Clemence recently ran out of were 98CRI with an R9 of 97, and a TM-30 of 92.
    Last edited by Tachead; 11-16-2017 at 09:49 AM.

  22. #412

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread

    Regarding LEDs with 90+ R9, some of the modders, such as gunga, may have stock of the N219b 4000k 9080 LEDs from Clemence.. pic is a link:



    as far as the issue with yellow/green tint above the BBL, that is common for Zebras, a 1/8 minus green filter can help with the tint.. it also very slightly raises R9.. see this post by maukka
    Last edited by jon_slider; 11-16-2017 at 01:24 PM.

  23. #413
    Flashaholic joelbnyc's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    It's all about what bin you can get man. Nichia's can have far higher R9's then 70. The 219B SW40 R9080's Clemence recently ran out of were 98CRI with an R9 of 97, and a TM-30 of 92.
    Oh that's cool. I didn't see anything about TM-30 metrics in the 2017 Nichia catalogue.

    I want a Nichia 9080 bin light now!

    Also, as Michael Royer of PNNL points out in this video, a TM-30 Rf of say 90 but an Rg of greater than 100 with saturation towards the reds might be more visually pleasing to those of us who like the slightly rosy tints.

    Example, subjects preferred this lighting source for this scene, above a bunch of others:



    So, fidelity measures like CRI/, CRI-15, Rf arent everything. As I'm sure most posters in this thread know more than I.

    But as fidelity gets closer to 100, range of possible saturation departure gets smaller:

    Last edited by joelbnyc; 11-16-2017 at 06:40 PM.

  24. #414

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Quote Originally Posted by joelbnyc View Post
    I want a Nichia 9080 bin light now!

    Also, as Michael Royer of PNNL points out in this video, a TM-30 Rf of say 90 but an Rg of greater than 100 with saturation towards the reds might be more visually pleasing to those of us who like the slightly rosy tints.

    Example, subjects preferred this lighting source for this scene, above a bunch of others:



    So, fidelity measures like CRI/, CRI-15, Rf arent everything. As I'm sure most posters in this thread know more than I.

    But as fidelity gets closer to 100, range of possible saturation departure gets smaller:

    here are the N219b 4000k 9080 , and N219b 4500k 9080


    here a those leds in Maratacs, along with a stock Nichia Worm


    and those 9080 LEDs w a 3000k 219c 9050


    and the benefit of minus green filters:
    Last edited by jon_slider; 11-17-2017 at 08:26 PM.

  25. #415
    Flashaholic* neutralwhite's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    I've got a dilemma with my triple s2+ with 4500k 219b 9080 Nichia ,
    i don't know if I should mod this with something different now such as XPL hi CW , XHP 50cw, even if possible the Nichia 6500k in hcri!.
    Custom Built

  26. #416
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    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    Keep as is neutralwhite, just get another host for new mods

  27. #417

    Default Re: The Tint Snob Thread .

    What's the motivation for even considering replacing the R9080's? Do you have one of Mountain's high-powered mods that might severely overdrive 219B's at max mode? Can't the drivers in those modded lights have their max-mode programmed?

    Unless it's a concern like that, it seems to me they should stay there unless you found an even better use for those emitters.

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