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Thread: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

  1. #31
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post

    Running two protected 18350 Li-Ions in series with an AVS or Malkoff M61 drop-in causes the engine to see ~8.4 volts (not including sag and resistance). The output starts out at nearly 900 lumens and operates for a while
    Charge question, I hear different things, are you supposed to charge lithium batteries often or let them drain a bit before charging, or does it matter? Do you 'Lose a cycle of battery life' each time you charge or was that true for a different battery chemistry? If charging very often is perfectly fine than 2 18350s could be the way to go if you don't care about charging a lot correct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    ...until cell voltage is reduced enough to cause the head to think that it's being run from two CR123s, at which point it decreases its output to 650 lumens
    So this will be instant, it will look like you just clicked to a lower setting?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    , and continues to operate. As the light is used, each cell is depleted down towards the 2.5 to 2.8 volt lower limit of the cell's protection circuit. Since the head is seeing over 5 volts, it puts out basically full output until....BAM....the protection circuit of one of the cells is tripped, causing the light to go out with no warning. If two naked or IMR cells are used in series, there's no protection circuit to keep the cells from being discharged below 2.5 volts, which is a bad situation.
    Ok so no problem at all if you use protected, and you don't mind the risk of an instant shut off (or even prefer it to gradual fade out)?

    So, if you use PROTECTED 18350s the situation mentioned above, dropping from 900 to 650 won't ever happen anyway because the light will go totally dark before that ever happens??

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    Using a single 18650 of any chemistry with an AVS head or M61 causes completely different operational behavior. As the cell's voltage drops below ~3.4 volts (Elzetta doesn't advertise the transition voltage), the head/drop-in changes from running in a regulated state to a direct drive state. As the voltage continues to decrease, so does the output.
    Does this mean that a regulated state is constant output even as voltage drops?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    There is lots of warning that the cells are running low, and replacing/charging them is needed.
    Flickering?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    Running the AVS from a single Li-Ion gives me several benefits:
    - twice the regulated run time (due to the decreased lumen output)
    - long direct drive mode after regulated output ends
    - less heat, since I'm running it at about 500 lumens instead of a bit less than 900
    Why do you care about heat? I was under the impression that all these Elzettas are configured to not over heat. Am I wrong? If I put 2 fresh 18350s in, turn light on 900 lumens and just walk away I can damage the light? I can't imagine a light could heat to the point of burning you and NOT cause damage, so I'm assuming a heat complaint of getting burnt and ruining a flashlight is the same complaint. In my Fenix light it will do heat sensing step down, but if you own a single mode Bravo that's not an option, can it actually burn you and NOT damage the light?

    So other than the heat question I think I understand, 2 18350s mean higher power but you'll charge more often, and light may go out instantly (900 lumens from beginning to end). 1 18650 means much more time away from your charger, less power, and a gradual fade at the end. You have great battery knowledge thanks.
    Last edited by BeastFlashlight; 01-29-2017 at 06:57 PM.
    XeRay1982

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    Charge question, I hear different things, are you supposed to charge lithium batteries often or let them drain a bit before charging, or does it matter? Do you 'Lose a cycle of battery life' each time you charge or was that true for a different battery chemistry? If charging very often is perfectly fine than 2 18350s could be the way to go if you don't care about charging a lot correct?

    They don't seem to care how often they're charged. They really don't like being fully discharged, and with two small one in series draining them to a low point is easy to do. They prefer to sit at around an 80% of full charge capacity.



    So this will be instant, it will look like you just clicked to a lower setting?

    I've never put in two 18350s and watched for the change from one output to the other. According to Jim's chart, I'd guess it to be pretty instant. Have you looked through flashlightguide yet?


    Ok so no problem at all if you use protected, and you don't mind the risk of an instant shut off (or even prefer it to gradual fade out)?

    So, if you use PROTECTED 18350s the situation mentioned above, dropping from 900 to 650 won't ever happen anyway because the light will go totally dark before that ever happens??

    There's no problem at all if protected cells are used. I ran two RCR123s for years with M61s, before switching to 16650s. I simply got annoyed at the light going out without any warning.


    Does this mean that a regulated state is constant output even as voltage drops?

    Yes


    Flickering?

    Nope, just slowly diminishing output.


    Why do you care about heat? I was under the impression that all these Elzettas are configured to not over heat. Am I wrong? If I put 2 fresh 18350s in, turn light on 900 lumens and just walk away I can damage the light? I can't imagine a light could heat to the point of burning you and NOT cause damage, so I'm assuming a heat complaint of getting burnt and ruining a flashlight is the same complaint. In my Fenix light it will do heat sensing step down, but if you own a single mode Bravo that's not an option, can it actually burn you and NOT damage the light?

    I don't really care much about heat, but some do, and it is a benefit (though not nearly as important as the others). You are correct that the AVS can be operated at full output for as long as the batteries will allow it to run. While the light won't be damaged by such usage, LEDs really don't like excessive heat, and it's "better" to keep them at a reasonable operating temperature.

    Different people have different thresholds for pain. What I may consider merely uncomfortable, another person subjected to the same temperature may consider it torture. An Elzetta won't get so hot to cause physical damage to skin that touches it, but pain is a definite possibility. Jim's review of the High Output lights has a section dedicated to heat.



    So other than the heat question I think I understand, 2 18350s mean higher power Yes
    but you'll charge more often Yes,
    and light may not may, but will, if you don't turn it off first go out instantly
    (900 lumens from beginning to end). It will drop down to the 650 lumen level when the cells have been drained enough to cause the head to think it's being fed by two CR123s

    1 18650 means much more time away from your charger, less power, and a gradual fade at the end. Correct.

    You have great battery knowledge thanks I'm glad to assist.
    Last edited by Grizzman; 01-29-2017 at 08:49 PM.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post

    Have you looked through flashlightguide yet?
    No I'll have to check it out! Thanks again.
    XeRay1982

  4. #34
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    You're right I'd cringe too.



    No way



    I wonder if the boring job by Oveready compromises the strength much.



    This I wouldn't mind



    Not bad I'd do that



    Nah
    Hahaha! Well, to each his own! Have fun!
    I only fear that if something happens to me, my wife will sell all my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.

  5. #35
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnyh View Post
    They have a very short run time and do not give much warning when they are low. They just go out.
    Objection! Yes, the run time is short, but you get an obvious warning when summary voltage of two 16350 in my case drops to 7.3V -- the AVS driver starts to flip between 900 and 650 lm -- as a result you may see a beam brightness vibration. Should be blind to not notice that

  6. #36
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Objection! Yes, the run time is short, but you get an obvious warning when summary voltage of two 16350 in my case drops to 7.3V -- the AVS driver starts to flip between 900 and 650 lm -- as a result you may see a beam brightness vibration. Should be blind to not notice that
    Alright then! Good info to know! Thanks! Objection sustained!
    I only fear that if something happens to me, my wife will sell all my stuff for what I told her I paid for it.

  7. #37
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    ......and now the battery discussion begins.

    In the 18mm diameter size, cells are available in ~35, ~50, and ~65 mm lengths.

    CR123s aren't rechargeable, but in the same size, we have what are called RCR123 or 16340 cells, which are re-chargeable. These can be either protected or unprotected Li-Co (typical rechargeable Li-Ion) or unprotected IMR (a somewhat safer chemistry). RCR123s and 16340s have a capacity of only about 500-700 mAh.

    18350s are roughly the same length as CR123s, but are 18mm in diameter instead of 16mm. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR. Capacity for this size typically runs in the 700 to 900 mAh range.

    18500s aren't directly compatible with the Bravo, but here's some info anyway. They are available in protected Li-CO, likely unprotected Li-Co, and IMR (AW's are called 18490). Capacity for this size typically runs in the 1200 to 1500 mAh range.

    18650s are roughly the same length as two 18350s. They are available in protected Li-CO, unprotected Li-Co, IMR, and new hybrid IMR chemistry. Capacity of protected and unprotected (also called naked) Li-Co 18650s goes up to 3400 or 3500 mAh. Capacity of traditional IMR 18650s tops out in the 2200 mAh region. Capacity of AW's hybrid 18650 is 3000 mAh.

    Running two protected 18350 Li-Ions in series with an AVS or Malkoff M61 drop-in causes the engine to see ~8.4 volts (not including sag and resistance). The output starts out at nearly 900 lumens and operates for a while until cell voltage is reduced enough to cause the head to think that it's being run from two CR123s, at which point it decreases its output to 650 lumens, and continues to operate. As the light is used, each cell is depleted down towards the 2.5 to 2.8 volt lower limit of the cell's protection circuit. Since the head is seeing over 5 volts, it puts out basically full output until....BAM....the protection circuit of one of the cells is tripped, causing the light to go out with no warning. If two naked or IMR cells are used in series, there's no protection circuit to keep the cells from being discharged below 2.5 volts, which is a bad situation.

    Using a single 18650 of any chemistry with an AVS head or M61 causes completely different operational behavior. As the cell's voltage drops below ~3.4 volts (Elzetta doesn't advertise the transition voltage), the head/drop-in changes from running in a regulated state to a direct drive state. As the voltage continues to decrease, so does the output. There is lots of warning that the cells are running low, and replacing/charging them is needed. As long as the user is paying attention, there's very little risk of cell damage, even with naked cells, since the output has obviously decreased long before the cell has reached 2.5 volts.

    Running the AVS from a single Li-Ion gives me several benefits:
    - twice the regulated run time (due to the decreased lumen output)
    - long direct drive mode after regulated output ends
    - less heat, since I'm running it at about 500 lumens instead of a bit less than 900
    Grizzman, Just pulled my Keepower 3500 18650 out of the Bones and tried to put in the new bored Bravo but it's way too tight! Can you tell me specfically what you run in a bored Bravo?

  8. #38
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Beastman, Please disregard the suggestion on the 18650 Keepower 18650 3500mah...it's too fat to go into the bored out Bravo. Just a heads up!

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    Default So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnyh View Post
    Grizzman, Just pulled my Keepower 3500 18650 out of the Bones and tried to put in the new bored Bravo but it's way too tight! Can you tell me specfically what you run in a bored Bravo?
    The only protected 18650s I own are AW's 2200, 3100, and 3400 mAh cells. They all fit comfortably in my three bored bodies.

    I've been planning to try the KeepPower 3500s since I've had good luck with their 16650s. I likely won't if they won't fit my Elzettas.

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    The only protected 18650s I own are AW's 2200, 3100, and 3400 mAh cells. They all fit comfortably in my three bored bodies.

    I've been planning to try the KeepPower 3500s since I've had good luck with their 16650s. I likely won't if they won't fit my Elzettas.
    Ok, thanks for that. Much appreciated.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnyh View Post
    Beastman, Please disregard the suggestion on the 18650 Keepower 18650 3500mah...it's too fat to go into the bored out Bravo. Just a heads up!
    Ok thanks, I don't need to buy any so hopefully mine will be ok. The only 18650 that I remember gave me a problem because it was either too fat or too long (can't remember) was a Zebralight battery.
    Last edited by BeastFlashlight; 02-04-2017 at 12:38 AM.
    XeRay1982

  12. #42
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    My Elzetta conversion story, it took a day...well moderators deleted my earlier post because I broke a rule, anyway, I was explaining that I was going to sell the AVS Bravo because I'm so addicted to buying lights for pure power and my initial reaction was disappointment because of the very 'Regular' lumen output ugh! It's not like I didn't know that it would be humble lumens, I guess it was simply buyer's remorse.

    But I have changed my mind!! It took a day of thinking about the fact that this light is simply in a different niche than what I'm used to, an indestructible tank niche. Now I'm thinking that it will be nice to laugh if I drop my light on the concrete instead of cringing which is what I'm used to. At first I thought I would cringe BECAUSE this Bravo is expensive but the more I feel it the more I realize that no the purpose is to treat it like an off road Range Rover not treat it like a Cadillac. I already have the 'Power' niche covered multiple times over, the TANK niche is beginning to grow on me!

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    The only protected 18650s I own are AW's 2200, 3100, and 3400 mAh cells. They all fit comfortably in my three bored bodies.
    Do you go with the flat tops? I'm thinking they would press against the AVS Head spring more flush?? Also, IMRs or no IMRs with the AVS Bravo? Thanks.

    ...I just was now reading up on AWs I never knew how good they were, now I definitely want to grab some. However, I'm also reading that you have to watch out where you get them because fakes are common, where do you buy yours at Grizz?
    Last edited by BeastFlashlight; 02-04-2017 at 12:39 AM.
    XeRay1982

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    There is no need to run IMRs in Elzettas. They are designed to use primary CR123s, which have very moderate amperage capability.

    The AW 3400 protected and AW 3000 mAh hybrid IMR cells I use are flat tops. I'd say very few high capacity 18650s are button tops, since that will likely cause them to be too long.

    I probably bought almost all of them from Oveready, adding a few to each order. AW likely has a sales thread here, and will sell to you directly if Oveready's out of stock.

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    To absolutely love Elzetta AVS you need a flood lens. Same was to me, but I was wise enough to order flood one as well. Tested the standard one... Hmmm... But when I replaced it with a flood lens -- instant love For throw I carry a Lumintop TD16 XP-L HI or an Eagletac TX30C2, but right hand pocket instant flood is B343!

    BTW, I use a pair of AW IMR16350 for 900lm output and carry 4 generic CR123A as a backup. And one more moment: Bravo AVS is absolutely nice. If you sell it you will regret the rest of your life
    Last edited by vadimax; 02-03-2017 at 01:36 PM.

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    There is no need to run IMRs in Elzettas. They are designed to use primary CR123s, which have very moderate amperage capability.

    The AW 3400 protected and AW 3000 mAh hybrid IMR cells I use are flat tops. I'd say very few high capacity 18650s are button tops, since that will likely cause them to be too long.

    I probably bought almost all of them from Oveready, adding a few to each order. AW likely has a sales thread here, and will sell to you directly if Oveready's out of stock.
    Yes, Elzetta does not lie: with 2x16350 it consumes less than 1.5A to produce 900 lm. Here you may see exact numbers.
    Last edited by vadimax; 02-03-2017 at 01:47 PM.

  16. #46
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    The AW 3400 protected and AW 3000 mAh hybrid IMR cells I use are flat tops.

    I probably bought almost all of them from Oveready
    Ok thanks I will go with flat top and will buy from Oveready.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    There is no need to run IMRs in Elzettas. They are designed to use primary CR123s, which have very moderate amperage capability.
    Ok IMRs are unnecessary but are they dangerous at all for ruining the light, or are IMRs just gonna give you lower capacity? Just wondering because Oveready only has 18350s in IMR

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzman View Post
    I'd say very few high capacity 18650s are button tops, since that will likely cause them to be too long.
    Is the length of 2 button top 18350s an issue in the Bravo? 65mm for the AW 18650 and 35mm for each 18350 buttons, that seems significantly longer. How about going with 1 18350 flat top and 1 18350 button top? Because you'll need at least one button in the middle to make contact with the 2nd battery, but the spring at the head is fine with flat top (save a little length). Anyway, IF 2x18350s would be causing me to really stuff them in tightly and strain the springs I'd rather not even use them at all because it would bother me to put extra strain on the springs and flatten them.

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    BTW, I use a pair of AW IMR16350 for 900lm output and carry 4 generic CR123A as a backup.
    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Yes, Elzetta does not lie: with 2x16350 it consumes less than 1.5A to produce 900 lm.
    Did you mean to type 18350 instead of 16350? The AVS Bravo page at Oveready mentions outputs for 1x18650, 2x123, and 2x18350, but it does not mention 16350 as an option.

    http://www.oveready.com/elzetta-flas.../prod_374.html
    Last edited by BeastFlashlight; 02-03-2017 at 02:30 PM.
    XeRay1982

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    Did you mean to type 18350 instead of 16350? The AVS Bravo page at Oveready mentions outputs for 1x18650, 2x123, and 2x18350, but it does not mention 16350 as an option.

    http://www.oveready.com/elzetta-flas.../prod_374.html
    My Elzetta is not modified, that's why I use 16350. But this should be totally true for 18350 as well. You need no more than 1.5A capability.

  18. #48
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Ahh that explains it! Ok I bought both 18650 and 18350 AWs from here, I hope I'm safe from counterfeits...

    http://www.darksucks.com/store%20battery2900T.html
    XeRay1982

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    Ok IMRs are unnecessary but are they dangerous at all for ruining the light, or are IMRs just gonna give you lower capacity? Just wondering because Oveready only has 18350s in IMR

    Using IMRs would only have a potential for danger if you use two of them and run the light until its output is severely dimmed....at which point the cells would be drained to well below 2.5 volts. It's possible that the cells could vent with flame, which is bad for the light, and the user. AW's hybrid IMR 3000 mAh 18650 cell wouldn't be much of a decrease in capacity, but there is no benefit from an output perspective in an AVS Bravo.

    Is the length of 2 button top 18350s an issue in the Bravo? 65mm for the AW 18650 and 35mm for each 18350 buttons, that seems significantly longer. How about going with 1 18350 flat top and 1 18350 button top? Because you'll need at least one button in the middle to make contact with the 2nd battery, but the spring at the head is fine with flat top (save a little length). Anyway, IF 2x18350s would be causing me to really stuff them in tightly and strain the springs I'd rather not even use them at all because it would bother me to put extra strain on the springs and flatten them.

    Two AW IMR 18350s are very slightly longer than one AW protected 3400 mAh 18650, but it'll work fine. It will take a bit more effort to fully tighten the tailcap, due to needing to fully compress the springs, but it's not excessive. This extra spring pressure may also slightly cave in the negative battery contacts, but it shouldn't have any negative side effects. I doubt two protected 18350s would work. I don't own any to test. One hybrid IMR 3000 mAh 18650, with the same length as an NCR18650B, is obviously shorter than two 18350s, and a bit shorter than a protected 18650, but it'll also work fine...because of the dual spring setup.

    Mixing different cells in series is something to be completely avoided., so I wouldn't go the button top/flat top route.


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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    Ahh that explains it! Ok I bought both 18650 and 18350 AWs from here, I hope I'm safe from counterfeits...

    http://www.darksucks.com/store%20battery2900T.html
    You can trust Jason to not sell counterfeit product.

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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Ok thanks a lot on both posts, can't believe you actually know the guy, Jason, looks like I lucked out because I just guessed and bought based off of a Google search, I wonder if the counterfeit epidemic is over exaggerated.
    XeRay1982

  22. #52

    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    I've never dealt with Elzetta before, I thought about ordering this but it's out of stock...
    Sorry, swamped with the other thread this month. AVS Bravo, ready to ship:

    http://www.oveready.com/elzetta-flas.../prod_374.html

    Order cells at the same time and I'll test load them for you.
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  23. #53
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    Default Re: So can you place a pre-paid order for Elzetta AVS Bravo?

    Quote Originally Posted by BeastFlashlight View Post
    I've never dealt with Elzetta before, I thought about ordering this but it's out of stock...

    http://www.oveready.com/elzetta-flas.../prod_374.html

    So...is this an item that I can simply order, or is this one of those products where it is a pipe dream to ever get one, and all you ever see is 'OUT OF STOCK'??
    LOL now Oveready has the complete bored AVS Elzetta's back in stock, talk about Murphy's Law, so I spent an extra $60 piecing it together because the whole package wasn't in stock lol
    XeRay1982

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