New light bar claims its legal, legit?

SubLGT

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Sounds dubious.

Not just off road! In six-inch size, when installed as a pair and aimed in accordance with your state's regulations, the Driving pattern meets SAE J581 as a Driving/Auxiliary High Beam Light, and the Wide pattern meets SAE J583 as a Foglamp, for legal on-road use. Please check your local laws and regulations for aiming, installation, and applicability.
 

Alaric Darconville

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Sounds dubious.
Not just off road! In six-inch size, when installed as a pair and aimed in accordance with your state's regulations, the Driving pattern meets SAE J581 as a Driving/Auxiliary High Beam Light, and the Wide pattern meets SAE J583 as a Foglamp, for legal on-road use. Please check your local laws and regulations for aiming, installation, and applicability.
One of those "sanity check questions" might be: "Shouldn't any lamps complying with a particular specification be aimed in accordance with the specification?"

49 CFR 393.24 even hints at that sanity check question:
49 CFR 393.24 - Requirements for head lamps, auxiliary driving lamps and front fog lamps.
[paragraph (a) Headlamps omitted]
(b)Auxiliary driving lamps and front fog lamps. Commercial motor vehicles may be equipped with auxiliary driving lamps and/or front fog lamps for use in conjunction with, but not in lieu of the required headlamps. Auxiliary driving lamps shall meet SAE Standard J581 Auxiliary Upper Beam Lamps, July 2004, and front fog lamps shall meet SAE Standard J583 Front Fog Lamp, August 2004. (See § 393.7 for information on the incorporation by reference and availability of these documents.)

(c)Mounting. Headlamps shall be mounted and aimable in accordance with FMVSS No. 108. Auxiliary driving lamps and front fog lamps shall be mounted so that the beams are aimable and the mounting shall prevent the aim of the lighting device from being disturbed while the vehicle is operating on public roads.

(d)Aiming. Headlamps, auxiliary driving lamps and front fog lamps shall be aimed to meet the aiming specifications in FMVSS No. 108 (49 CFR 571.108), SAE J581, and SAE J583, respectively.
Yes, the aiming is in the named specification, and any State law referencing the specification would surely defer to the aiming named in that specification.
 
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-Virgil-

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The language they're using is clever: they say the beam pattern meets the SAE specs. That's good, if it's true, but it's not sufficient. Those SAE standards don't just specify the beam pattern, they also specify a whole bunch of other aspects of design, construction, performance, durability, etc of the lamps they cover, and this "beam pattern meets the spec" language is silent about those aspects. And because these are electronic lights (LEDs) there are other standards they have to meet, too, for EMC (electromagnetic compatibility...that's things like radio-frequency and electromagnetic interference, etc).
 

Bitter

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Interesting, so I suppose I should ask if they meet all the SAE standards for driving lamps or just the beam pattern. Any specific questions to ask?
I was considering a pair in the driving pattern to augment the high beams on my Celica since swapping to the OEM HID housings has diminished the high beam performance. To fit the larger HID projector in the lamp Toyota (or Koito?) downsized the high beam bowl somewhat which negatively impacted the high beam output. You win some, you loose some I guess. I was hopeful these might be a solution to regaining some of my high beam performance back.
 

-Virgil-

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Ask any question you can think of, and I'm sure they'll have a very reassuring answer for you. That's the thing: a company that tells lies -- including lies of omission, especially the ones they try to distract us away from with cleverly woven language -- and has zero or negative track record in terms of being a supplier of legitimate vehicle lighting products (vice trinkets and toys)...there's just not much point in pursuing it; we'd just be asking to get lied to again...and again...and again until we feel sufficiently "informed" to cough up a credit card number.

I try to not reward that kind of behavior; I vote on it with my money.
 

64.5vette

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Diode has all the equipment for FMVSS108 compliance testing in house. While they do sell garbage like LED PNP bulbs or 8000k bulbs, Paul is extremely knowledgeable on lighting. Is he Dstern level? no. But he knows a hell of a lot more than me.
 

-Virgil-

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Diode has all the equipment for FMVSS108 compliance testing in house.

Are you sure? I mean maybe, but that would be a huge investment even for a big, major company. Photometry (a goniophotometer), yeah, a lot of companies have those, that's not such a big deal. But environmental testing chambers, vibration testing rigs, that kind of thing?

While they do sell garbage like LED PNP bulbs or 8000k bulbs, Paul is extremely knowledgeable on lighting.

So...what, he knows those things are garbage and he sells them anyway because profit is worth endangering traffic safety and breaking the law? Or he doesn't know those things are garbage? Come on.
 

Bitter

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Well they have a product video showing them freezing, baking, and shaking so...maybe. Maybe not in house but somewhere they did some kind of testing.

Perhaps a better question should be: do you think they'd make acceptable driving lights to augment high beams with?
 

NovA ProspekT

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Neither the product nor the company manufacturing/selling it impresses me; I see no reason to spend my hard earned money on a product of dubious quality and performance, from a company that knowingly sells and markets dangerous and illegal garbage. There are too many legitimate, well-built and effective auxiliary lights on the market for anybody to waste their time with this.

What is your budget for auxiliary lamps? What size and "form-factor" are you looking for? Must they meet a certain specification to fulfill the requirements of your state/province?
 

Alaric Darconville

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Samples from Diode Dynamics' specs
Intensity @ 10m: 470 lux (Driving)
Output Color: 6000K Crisp White
Total Dimensions: TBA
Weight: TBA

The intensity at 10m is not an extremely useful metric for an auxiliary high beam, and depending on the amount of light farther downrange you might be overlighting the foreground compared to distant objects. My low beams should show me what is 33 feet away-- I want to know how many lux I get at 500 feet. Light isn't "crisp". They don't even know their product's dimensions (or couldn't be bothered to get the specs to the guy updating the product page).
 
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Bitter

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Dimensions are listed on the schematic drawing, not sure why they weren't copied to the page.

I'm looking at $200 or close to it, and they need to be very compact vertically to fit the available space at the front of the car.

These are the only thing I've ran across that are a suitable size and SEEM to be of less dubious quality.

I've asked for some measurements at longer range and photos at longer range, I'm skeptical the beam is tight enough to not flood the foreground given the low vehicle height I'm working with. My other contender would be the Rigid D2 hyperspot but I'm skeptical that they would be too highly focused to give any shoulder illumination.

In the end there may be nothing that fits my budget and size needs, if that's the case then I'll just deal with what I have. Maybe some of those 9000 lumen LED high beam bulbs they sell would do the trick :p
 

Alaric Darconville

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I'm looking at $200 or close to it
You don't get what you don't pay for.

These are the only thing I've ran across that are a suitable size and SEEM to be of less dubious quality.
SEEM, though.

I'd rather have a pair of JW Speaker Model 8801 lamps, although they aren't as squat as the DiodeDynamics lights, so on a Celica they could look out of place. They also cost quite a bit more, but will outperform and outlast them.
 

-Virgil-

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Intensity @ 10m: 470 lux (Driving)
Output Color: 6000K Crisp White

As has been pointed out, "470 lux @ 10m" tells nothing but peak intensity (47,000 candela). It tells nothing about the overall light distribution. Not very useful. Also, there is no such thing as "crisp white" light.
 

Bitter

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I'll ask for lux at 100m and one of those pretty light distribution things with the cool gradient colors.

Just by seeing the name JW Speaker I can tell you the price makes me JW Squeaker!
 

-Virgil-

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Just by seeing the name JW Speaker I can tell you the price makes me JW Squeaker!

Do you want to see better? Want the light you buy to hold up for a reasonably long time? Then pay up; generally we (don't) get what we (don't) pay for. If you buy a cheap light, you get...a cheap light.
 

Alaric Darconville

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I'll ask for lux at 100m and one of those pretty light distribution things with the cool gradient colors.
An isolux diagram or a beam isoplot? Some of them will be provided so small, or in such a weird scale, that i'll be hard to make sense of them. Remember, they'll provide you with all the *marketing material* they have, but probably will not provide you with any useful information.

Just by seeing the name JW Speaker I can tell you the price makes me JW Squeaker!
Perhaps, but how cheap is a lamp compared to a property damage, or worse, personal injury, accident?

If you're shopping solely by price, you're not shopping, you're just finding a way to waste money. For some things, buy it correctly or don't buy it at all.
 
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-Virgil-

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Alaric's got a good point. There are legitimate beam diagrams, and then there are so-called "beam diagrams" that are really just so much marketing BS. There have already been discussions, like this one (see post #3 in that thread), about the bogus claims made by one otherwise generally reputable vendor to hawk H4 headlamps.
 

Bitter

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I asked and he said they're working on getting the isolux diagram and some better distance measurements, explained the delay is because the office came down the the flu that's going on around (and boy is it going around!). I'll hold my judgments on it till I have all the facts, I'll borrow a phrase from Regan 'trust but verify'. From what conversations I've had with Diode Dynamics staff in the past and with Paul elsewhere they seem on the ball but prone to the marketing fluff that's typical of anything from the automotive industry. Once the 100m lux and isolux stuff is up I'll revist this thread and get some more fully informed opinions, no sense shooting it down before all the facts are in. Maybe they're onto something, maybe it's all bullshit, I'll keep an open mind but closed wallet for the time being.

As far as durability of the light I only drive the Celica in the summer and maybe 5000 miles a year so it's not exposed to harsh winter corrosives which would be the prime killer around here. They offer a fairly long warranty which I will carefully read through and make sure I adhere to the conditions of, my only issues outside an electronic failure would be potential rock strike on the highway since the car is low but I'm pretty good about staying away from vehicles shedding stone and I imagine any light is prone to rock strike damage. They'd be mounted out of direct sunlight so UV degradation of the lens would be fairly minimal if any.
 
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