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Thread: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

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    Question noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Hi,

    I have a noob question about at which voltage should I put my NCR18650GA protected batteries. I can see that on the batteries it says 3.7V, but on the VP2 charger there is no setting for 3.7 (http://www.mtnelectronics.com/image/...-1-750x750.jpg), only 3.2V / 3.6V and 3.8V (http://www.mtnelectronics.com/image/...12-750x750.jpg).

    So I am confused about which voltage should I switch to when charging these batteries?

    Thanks.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Use 3.6V setting.

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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by zarko550 View Post
    Hi,

    I have a noob question about at which voltage should I put my NCR18650GA protected batteries. I can see that on the batteries it says 3.7V, but on the VP2 charger there is no setting for 3.7 (http://www.mtnelectronics.com/image/...-1-750x750.jpg), only 3.2V / 3.6V and 3.8V (http://www.mtnelectronics.com/image/...12-750x750.jpg).

    So I am confused about which voltage should I switch to when charging these batteries?

    Thanks.
    The 3.2v setting is for LiFePO4 cells, which come hot off the charger at ~3.6v and 3.8v setting is for the 4.35v cells like the LG D1/E1 18650s and the Samsung 2500mAh 16650s.

    3.6v/3.7v is the nominal voltage for cells we commonly use here and some manufacturers use 3.6v and some use 3.7v in their testing protocols, but they both come hot off the charger at ~4.20v.

    Chris
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    Flashaholic* KITROBASKIN's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    The VP2 is a favorite charger on this side of our electrical outlet; Good Choice. Remember to choose charging amperage every time you begin charging.

  5. #5

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Wait, so you mean when it comes "hot" off the charger at 4.2 volts, we should immediately drop it down to 3.6 volts? Isn't 4.2volts the normal voltage of lithium ion cells once fully charged? I know for storage, you do have to drop the voltage for it not to degrade faster, but other than that, frequently used cells are okay to be left at 4.2 volts, right?

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    Flashaholic* vadimax's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by roadkill1109 View Post
    Wait, so you mean when it comes "hot" off the charger at 4.2 volts, we should immediately drop it down to 3.6 volts? Isn't 4.2volts the normal voltage of lithium ion cells once fully charged? I know for storage, you do have to drop the voltage for it not to degrade faster, but other than that, frequently used cells are okay to be left at 4.2 volts, right?
    Correct. 3.6V is a storage voltage in case that cell will be idle for months or longer. Gives less degradation of the chemistry. Operation voltages are 2.8-4.2V.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Just a figure of speech roadkill, yes 4.2v fully charged, 3.6v is around 50% charge + or - a few % and a storage voltage.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by vadimax View Post
    Correct. 3.6V is a storage voltage in case that cell will be idle for months or longer. Gives less degradation of the chemistry. Operation voltages are 2.8-4.2V.
    The OP is referring to the 3.6/3.7V setting on the charger. This refers not to the storage voltage but, rather, the nominal voltage.

    This nominal voltage need not be close to the typically recommended 40-50% SOC voltages for storage, e.g. for some common chemistries 3.6-3.7V is only about 4-15% capacity, which is too low for long-term storage.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Too add(presuming the cell in question is under 3.6v, which depending how close it is to that V would possibly negate this) you could use the 3.2v setting to charge the 18650 to 3.6v for storage.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    ^^^ That doesn't work for all chemistries, e.g. Panasonic NCR's are about 40% SOC at 3.6V, but Sanyo URs are only 4% SOC at 3.6V. Follow the link in my prior post for more.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 03-31-2017 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    3.6v is near enough for me imo and covers pretty much all my 18650 cells(inc pany A and B although in the minority). Sure you will agree, an NCR at 3.6v stored is better for it than 4.2v..............just to keep things simple and options are more readily available(3.2v setting) over $100 super all singing dancing chargers. Just an option to put out there for someone who may want to store an 18650 cell at 3.6v, the 3.2v setting will do it for them.

    tbh most of my store cells at around 3.8v usually, even up to 4v although most of mine are ready to go(guess only around 20 cells in storage V right now).

  12. #12

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Thank you all for answering my dillema and also for giving me extra info on what voltage should I store the batteries if I'm not using them for logner periods

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by ven View Post
    3.6v is near enough for me imo and covers pretty much all my 18650 cells [...]
    3.60/3.65V is fine for storing NCRs, but it is terrible for cells like the Sanyo UR (e.g. many laptop pulls). You need to know the chemistry to be sure that LiFePO4 kludge will work.

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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    3.60/3.65V is fine for storing NCRs, but it is terrible for cells like the Sanyo UR (e.g. many laptop pulls). You need to know the chemistry to be sure that LiFePO4 kludge will work.
    Are we saying that we can charge all 4.20v ICR/IMR/INR/MCA/YMCA cells with the LiFePO4 3.2v setting to get them right at the 3.6x volt storage level, without trashing them?

    I know we can charge 4.35v cells on standard 4.20v chargers with little effect, so I guess it makes sense, but I never thought of doing it at the lower end of the scale.

    Chris
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    ^^^ A LiFePO4 charge is just a CC/CV charge to 3.60/3.65V, i.e. it's the same as a normal 4.20V Li-ion charge except it terminates at lower voltage (except possibly it may differ on precharge of overdischarged cells). So if that's a good storage voltage for your chemistry then it will work fine.
    Last edited by Gauss163; 03-31-2017 at 02:34 PM.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by Gauss163 View Post
    ^^^ A LiFePO4 charge is just a CC/CV charge to 3.60/3.65V, i.e. it's the same as a normal 4.20V Li-ion charge except it terminates at lower voltage (except possibly it may differ on precharge of overdischarged cells). So if that's a good storage voltage for your chemistry then it will work fine.
    Ya learn something new. Good to know.

    Thanks.

    Chris
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    What was the long term storage voltage for say Imr 18650 and 16340?
    Steve Bryant

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    What was the long term storage voltage for say Imr 18650 and 16340?
    We mostly shoot for 3.60v-3.70v. I just thawed out some Panasonic 3100mAh NRC-A 18650s from the fridge and they were in there for 3 full years. 3.70v-3.71v is what the showed once they warmed up for a few hours.

    I drop all my cells down to that level, from 10440s-26650s, it doesn't matter. That's around the 40%-50% level for state of charge.

    Chris
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Does anybody know say if a imr aw 16340 get discharged too much and catastrophic to the battery, how low is too much? 2.7v?
    Steve Bryant

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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by usdiver View Post
    Does anybody know say if a imr aw 16340 get discharged too much and catastrophic to the battery, how low is too much? 2.7v?
    I had a couple of year old AW IMR 16340s and was running a Shiningbeam I Mini and FourSevens Quark Tactical one night and both got run down close to 2.0v.

    I probably shaved a few cycles and more than a few mAh of capacity off of them, but they still work. I charged them right back up and we'll just see. Both are running right at 500mAh at a 500mA discharge on my Opus BT-3400, FWIW.

    Chris
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    I used my VP2 for the first time today. As it was charging at an indicated 4.2v, I touched the battery to see how warm it was. The charger gave the green light and I figured it was just coincidence. Then I charged another battery and when I check to see how warm it was at the 4.2v charging it too gave the green light. However, when it stopped charging the voltage display went to 4.14v and I read the same on my DVM. I inserted the battery into the charger and it charged for nearly another hour. I didn't touch it this time, waiting on the green light. It charged to 4.21v on my DVM. Any thoughts on what's going on?

  22. #22

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by sll View Post
    I used my VP2 for the first time today. As it was charging at an indicated 4.2v, I touched the battery to see how warm it was. The charger gave the green light and I figured it was just coincidence. Then I charged another battery and when I check to see how warm it was at the 4.2v charging it too gave the green light. However, when it stopped charging the voltage display went to 4.14v and I read the same on my DVM. I inserted the battery into the charger and it charged for nearly another hour. I didn't touch it this time, waiting on the green light. It charged to 4.21v on my DVM. Any thoughts on what's going on?
    I've seen that on my 3 different chargers, including the VP2 and VC4.
    Disturbing the cell, adjacent cells, removing adjacent cells occasionally give a false charge complete indication.
    Stop feeding exaggerated specs, careless designs, bad quality, insufficient QA and QC, and bad customer service. Curb your unbridled enthusiasm.

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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    I had a couple of year old AW IMR 16340s and was running a Shiningbeam I Mini and FourSevens Quark Tactical one night and both got run down close to 2.0v.

    I probably shaved a few cycles and more than a few mAh of capacity off of them, but they still work. I charged them right back up and we'll just see. Both are running right at 500mAh at a 500mA discharge on my Opus BT-3400, FWIW.

    Chris
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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    By moving the battery/cell, or turning it slightly, you break up any 'contact resistance' and this can be enough to trigger the green lights.

    I rotate my stuff, while it's charging, regularly and it's normal to move one and then watch the green light come on.

    Chris
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  25. #25

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    OK, I understand...hands off! Although not desirable, glad to hear this is not unusual.

    Thanks for all the feedback!

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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by sll View Post
    OK, I understand...hands off! Although not desirable, glad to hear this is not unusual.

    Thanks for all the feedback!
    You want to rotate them within the cradle.

    Like Martha Stewart is fond of saying:

    "And that's a good thing!"

    Chris
    Convoy: S2, S2+, M1, M2, Fenix: P1D, PD32, HL30, ET: D25C Ti, SF: 6P, ZL: SC-600, Klarus: P2A, Jetbeam: BA-20, Icon: Rogue 1, L3: L10, Xeno: E03, ShiningBeam: I-Mini, Olight: i3s, SWM: D40A, M11R, V11R, Maglite: 6Ds, MMs, Solitaires, LaCrosse BC-700, Maha C-9000, XTAR VP2, MP1S, XP1, MC1+, WP2 II, NiteCore i4, v2.

  27. #27

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Is that just to keep the contacts clean or is there something else? I guess if you get the green light just reload them and start again?
    Thanks!

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    Flashaholic* ChrisGarrett's Avatar
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    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by sll View Post
    Is that just to keep the contacts clean or is there something else? I guess if you get the green light just reload them and start again?
    Thanks!
    As I understand it, resistance builds up and slightly obstructs current flow. This causes the charger to balk, or stall a little bit, on termination.

    By turning them, jiggling them, removing one and jarring the other, that resistance is removed and things proceed on their merry way to full termination.

    It's usually when a cell is right at the end of charging, so you won't put in a depleted Eneloop, or 18650 and start turning it, only to have the charge terminated after only 5 minutes.

    Chris
    Last edited by ChrisGarrett; 04-13-2017 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Syntax, missing words, the meaning of life...
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  29. #29

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisGarrett View Post
    As I understand it, resistance builds up and slightly obstructs current flow. This causes the charger balk a little bit, on termination.

    By turning them, jiggling them, removing one and jarring the other, that resistance is removed and things proceed on their merry way to full termination.

    It's usually when a cell is right at the end of charging, so you won't put in a depleted Eneloop, or 18650 and start turning it, only to have the charge terminated after only 5 minutes.

    Chris
    More great info to learn
    I was wondering about the LG INR18650-MJ1. Are those also supposed to be charged with the 3.6V setting on the VP2?

  30. #30

    Default Re: noob question about XTAR VP2 Charger and NCR18650GA protected batteries

    Every time I think I have this figured out it seems like another question comes along. After resting overnight, two new batteries I charged yesterday on my VP2 were indicating 4.17v and 4.18v today. Does that sound right or should they be 4.2v? I'm thinking I read that this is OK and more healthy for the longevity of the batteries.

    Thanks again.

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