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Thread: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

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    Post Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    My state has a law that says that fog lights and low beams must not be on at the same time



    https://www.rsc.wa.gov.au/Road-Rules...hts-Fog-Lights
    Now I've seen that graph that shows that fog lights, even the ones to the new regulations aren't very good anyway.
    So would it be more effective to replace the pedestal Mount fog lights with a pedestal Mount auxiliary low beam that is yellow that is only use during fog with the main low beams off?

    or you guys think that I should just not use the fog lights at all and keep the low beams on.

    Edit: I should also mention that one of the pedestal Mount fog lights is already broken anyway so this is more like I should I bother replacing them and what with.
    Last edited by Starinless; 06-01-2017 at 10:29 PM.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    1) Fog lights need to be angled much further down than normal low-beams to reduce backscatter reaching the driver's eyes. That wouldn't work so well if you're going to modify the low-beams on your car.

    2) If they're just yellow-tinted, they won't do much good. They need to have 99%-blue-exclusive filters in order to keep blue light from escaping the housing and backscattering off water vapor in the air. Old-school foglights used to be made with cadmium-crystal glass because of its strong blue-filtering ability, but nobody makes them anymore because cadmium is extremely poisonous. You might be able to find/make filters out of yellow theater-light gels, which should have sufficient blue-filtering *and* sufficient UV resistance to withstand the UV produced by headlight bulbs.

    If nothing else, I'm glad you're at least not asking about how to fit 8000K HID bulbs into your Honda Civic's reflector headlamps.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    2) If they're just yellow-tinted, they won't do much good. They need to have 99%-blue-exclusive filters in order to keep blue light from escaping the housing and backscattering off water vapor in the air. Old-school foglights used to be made with cadmium-crystal glass because of its strong blue-filtering ability, but nobody makes them anymore because cadmium is extremely poisonous.
    My local Autoparts store is the largest seller of lights outside of the capital and they actually are selling "New" old stock Hella fog and low beams with cadmium-crystal glass inner lenses that can be removed they are E1 coded as well.

    The main reason I am asking is because according to daniel stern https://www.danielsternlighting.com/...Comparison.jpg fogs by them selfes are crap.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    The main reason I am asking is because according to daniel stern fogs by them selfes are crap.
    Fog so thick that you must use only fog lamps, not the low beams, is fog thick enough that you're not going to see very far, period. You don't need low beam reach at the speeds you'll be going at.

    Modern low beams have pretty much eliminated the need for fog lamps, anyway. They're still sold because they're profitable.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    The main use for fog lights where I am is dust storms and driving on dirt roads, in fact my driving instructor referred to them as front and rear dust lights; to be operated when there's a Sandstorm or if you're driving along a dirt road with a cloud of dust behind you.

    Thinking about it I think a red rear fog light and sharp cut off low beams with an up kick to the left would be better than fogs alone anyway especially with the ADR compliant fog light switch that my car has that turns the low beams off when the front or rear fog light is switched on.
    I think I'll probably disconnect the front fog lights and move their wire up to the low beams so that I can operate the rear fog light with the front low beams, after all the fogs usually get used about twice a month when driving on dirt roads at night and the front ones where really just burning bulbs and reducing seeing distance by forcing the low beams off when only the rear fog is actually needed.
    Last edited by Starinless; 06-02-2017 at 10:19 AM.

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    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    The main use for fog lights where I am is dust storms and driving on dirt roads, in fact my driving instructor referred to them as front and rear dust lights; to be operated when there's a Sandstorm or if you're driving along a dirt road with a cloud of dust behind you.
    A rear fog lamp would be good for such a sand/dust storm condition. But you can't just rename a fog lamp "dust lamp". Is the goal forward lighting or conspicuity?

    the ADR compliant fog light switch them my car has that turns the low beams off when the front or rear fog light is switched on I think
    Switching off the headlamps when the rear fog lamp is operated is wrong. The proscription against simultaneous low beam and fog lamp usage applies only to FRONT fog lamps:
    A person should not drive a motor vehicle displaying light from a front fog light or lights, if any other light greater than 7 watts and capable of showing white light to the front, is alight.
    (That's also some antiquated and sloppy language. They should reference light output, not power consumption.)

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric Darconville View Post
    A rear fog lamp would be good for such a sand/dust storm condition. But you can't just rename a fog lamp "dust lamp". Is the goal forward lighting or conspicuity?
    Im not quite sure, they are still referred to as fog lights in all documentation but I was told that if the dust is thick enough to force the streetlights on then you should use the foglamps, front and rear. Here is a short vid that I took a few months ago https://youtu.be/ltmM3_EFyBg


    Switching off the headlamps when the rear fog lamp is operated is wrong. The proscription against simultaneous low beam and fog lamp usage applies only to FRONT fog lamps
    Well it's more like a combined switch with front only and front & rear both settings force the low beams off.

    As a side note my local inspector at the garage was complaining about modern parking lights being too bright as they now use multiple lamps with the same intensity as 1 incandescent bulb, he just said if it was up to him only one or two led's could be lit for the parking light then the rest would be DRL only.
    Last edited by Starinless; 06-02-2017 at 11:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    Im not quite sure, they are still referred to as fog lights in all documentation but I was told that if the dust is thick enough to force the streetlights on then you should use the foglamps, front and rear. Here is a short vid that I took a few months ago
    I'd use headlamps and the rear fog and SLOW DOWN. I see those stripes flying by.


    Well it's more like a combined switch with front only and front & rear both settings force the low beams off.
    Oh, one of those. Seems like you should be able to operate the rear fog lamp without the front fog lamps.

    As a side note my local inspector at the garage was complaining about modern parking lights being too bright as they now use multiple lamps with the same intensity as 1 incandescent bulb, he just said if it was up to him only one or two led's could be lit for the parking light then the rest would be DRL only.
    The local inspector can complain all they want, but if they're ADR compliant they're compliant. Seems like they're making things up based on "common sense" and all that. That kind of thinking leads to front stop lamps and "pulsing" CHMSLs.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Is the goal forward lighting or conspicuity?
    ADR's use the ECE Foglight regulations, I believe it's for forward lighting for the driver in dust storms, but on dirt roads where the dust is behind you I use the highbeams as the fog switch does not disable them allowing simultaneous operation of front & rear fogs and highbeams.


    Edit: If I remove the bulbs from the front fogs the cars old relay based lighting control unit doesn't force the low beams off and it allows the rear fog to light.

    So would replacing these faulty foglights even benefit me? or should I just never put lights in them again and blackout the lenses.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    My state has a law that says that fog lights and low beams must not be on at the same time
    That's good. Even better if they enforce it, do they?

    So would it be more effective to replace the pedestal Mount fog lights with a pedestal Mount auxiliary low beam that is yellow that is only use during fog with the main low beams off?
    I can't quite tell what you're hoping to achieve with this. The color you have in mind is Selective Yellow as described here. In theory it's better in rain, fog, and snow, but its advantage is rather small. Photometry (beam pattern, light distribution) is much more important, and there is no light distribution that knifes through fog to make it safe for you to drive at the same speeds as in clear weather. So, if the idea is that you'd have a set of white low beams for clear weather and a set of yellow ones for foggy weather, then no, it wouldn't be worth the effort and expense.

    or you guys think that I should just not use the fog lights at all and keep the low beams on.
    That would be your best bet. Make sure they're aimed reasonably; find a shop that will aim them to 0.7% rather than the 1%, 1.5%, 2% types of figures some shops want to use for what they (mistakenly) call "safety".

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    *All* running lights are for conspicuity -- even the useless decorative ones are intended to get people's attention, and they almost always work for that purpose, legal or not. Headlights are just running lights bright enough and focused enough to provide adequate illumination for the operator to see where they're going, in addition to being seen by others.

    In a dust storm, or in heavy fog, you're not going to see much of anything. It's fine to have the fog lights on by themselves in that circumstance, because in any conditions where you actually *need* fog lights, the backscatter from normal headlights would blind you and make it even harder to see where you're going. Driving at 10mph/16kmh is still better than being completely stuck until the weather improves, and that's what fog lights are for.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    That would be your best bet. Make sure they're aimed reasonably; find a shop that will aim them to 0.7% rather than the 1%, 1.5%, 2% types of figures some shops want to use for what they (mistakenly) call "safety".
    What do those percentages mean? I've never seen headlight aiming described that way before. (not that I've done a lot of reading on the topic anyway.)

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by fyrstormer View Post
    What do those percentages mean? I've never seen headlight aiming described that way before. (not that I've done a lot of reading on the topic anyway.)
    It's percent declination from horizontal, and it's written into the ECE and ADR regulations.

    Quote Originally Posted by starinless
    my local inspector at the garage was complaining about modern parking lights being too bright as they now use multiple lamps with the same intensity as 1 incandescent bulb, he just said if it was up to him only one or two led's could be lit for the parking light then the rest would be DRL only.
    OK, that's his opinion. What safety problem does he think these "too bright" parking lights are causing?
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 06-03-2017 at 12:31 AM.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    Im not quite sure, they are still referred to as fog lights in all documentation but I was told that if the dust is thick enough to force the streetlights on then you should use the foglamps, front and rear. Here is a short vid that I took a few months ago https://youtu.be/ltmM3_EFyBg
    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    That's good. Even better if they enforce it, do they?
    The local constabulary is quite happy to take 3 demerit points off you and charge you "three penalty units" ($300 AUD at the moment) if you are caught with your fog lights on and its not foggy.

    doesn't stop every second vehicle with fog lights fitted from leaving them on though.....
    In most cases, people run the fog lights with the headlights.
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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo63 View Post
    The local constabulary is quite happy to take 3 demerit points off you and charge you "three penalty units" ($300 AUD at the moment) if you are caught with your fog lights on and its not foggy.
    Geez, I wish we had that here.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Firstly, what car turns the low beams off with front fog lights? I've never seen that before, VW turns the front fog lights off with when you turn high beam on with certain models, Mk IV Golf/Bora/Jetta being the main ones.
    I believe ECE regs require the front fog lights to be turned on, if fitted, before the rear fog light is turned on, certainly every car with front and rear fog lights that I've seen has had the switching arranged like that.
    In my experience, in heavy dust it doesn't really matter what lights you use. Fog lights end up being no better than normal low beam, high beam or aux driving lights as far as being to see where you're going. As far as being able to be seen in heavy dust/sand, again I've found normal low beam to be perfectly fine. A rear fog light is a good idea in heavy dust/sand.
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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Geez, I wish we had that here.
    Its only done because its easy money, and a good reason to stop someone for a closer inspection (normally starts as a "random" breath test)
    so many Hid kits, completely fogged housings and incorrectly aimed headlights that dont get stopped, but foglights will get you pulled over pretty frequently.

    Regular roadworthy inspections would be a good idea, get some of the rusty old deathtraps off the road
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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by irsa76 View Post
    Firstly, what car turns the low beams off with front fog lights?
    Nissan patrols do it if you have the front and rear foglights on the stalk, versions with the fog switches on the dash don't do that, not sure why but 1980 ADR's had no fogs and low beams lockout in their regulations before they updated them.

    Probably due to the fact that our indicator stalk is on the right and not the left. Even though we follow ECE regs(Most of the time;looking at you side markers, rear fogs and DRLs) we don't get left and right Parking lights with the car off, and the lockout foglight are only a feature on the right hand version of the stick, The UK has there indicator sick on the left; so do most RHD countries.

    As far as I can tell only Australia, New Zealand, Thailand, India and Japan have the right hand indicator stalk with the lockout, so one of these countries probably still have the lockout in their regulations and the RHD cars in these countries probably all come from the same factory.

    The euro cars you mentioned probably have their stalks on the left, I have only ever noticed lockouts on cars with the stalk on the right.
    Last edited by Starinless; 06-05-2017 at 06:46 AM.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by -Virgil- View Post
    Make sure they're aimed reasonably; find a shop that will aim them to 0.7% rather than the 1%, 1.5%, 2% types of figures some shops want to use for what they (mistakenly) call "safety".
    About these percentages, all headlights have the percent molded into the unit itself (1.3% in my case) now because the ADR's don't mandate headlight leveling systems, my car ships with no auto leveling or manual control.
    The patrols in the UK or Europe get a manual headlight knob for when they put loads in the back( https://i.ytimg.com/vi/y6MNNrSt8MQ/maxresdefault.jpg ), would it be safe to adjust these to 0.7% with no way to adjust them from the driving position?

  20. #20

    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starinless View Post
    Even though we follow ECE regs(Most of the time;looking at you side markers, rear fogs and DRLs) we don't get left and right Parking lights with the car off
    That is not a requirement under ECE Regulations.

    About these percentages, all headlights have the percent molded into the unit itself (1.3% in my case)
    Yes, but you can take advantage of in-service aim tolerances that typically permit a range of aim angles. For example, here is the UK manual for inspecting vehicle headlamp aim. Low beam headlamps mounted up to 850mm (33.46 inches) above the road surface can be aimed with the cutoff as high as 0.5% below horizontal, so 0.7% is within the allowed tolerance. Most jurisdictional rules I've seen, for areas where European-type headlamps are used, have similar tolerances, but I'm unable to find Western Australia's vehicle inspection manual at the moment, so you'd have to dig that up on your own. Please let us know what you find. If 0.7% is not allowed, set the lamps as high as your local tolerance band permits, minus a couple tenths to allow for vehicle loading.

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    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/w...4295/s291.html this is about as close as I have found to an actual aiming spec so far, but the NT has this http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/n...es/1202424.jpg as well as ACT and SA.

    If I look in the same place in WA regs I just get that vague language in my first link.
    I will have to measure my headlight height and try and convert that to a percentage.

    Edit: I can find a light vehicle inspection Manual for every state except WA, They all seam to say no higher than the center of the light 8m away and no higher than 1m 25m away, I'm thinking that WA might be using the draft of the federal vehicle inspection manual insted of there own and that's why I cannot find a WA spaciffic one. https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&s...LQBw9ragLHh3YQ
    Last edited by Starinless; 06-05-2017 at 01:59 PM.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Using yellow low beams as a replacement for fog lights?

    No good -- those distance requirements are not only severely insufficient unless you don't exceed 30 km/h, but they also aren't really headlamp aim specs. You might call around to a few shops that do official inspections and ask them what the aim angle range is. Or if you don't want to be bothered, get on your computer and make a couple of decals with the headlight pictogram and 0.7%, stick them in place, and go get your headlamps aimed to spec! :-)

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