orbtronic cr2 batteries - mislabeled as LiFe ?

I bought some CR2 rechargeables, and matching charger (since most every other charger supports RCR123 as the minimum length) from orbtronic.com
https://www.orbtronic.com/batteries-chargers/cr2-rechargeable-lithium-batteries-CR2-charger

They are labeled 3.0v, LiFe (Li-FePO4).

However, they are 3.8v (open circuit, after sitting for several months) and the included charger charges them at ~4v.

I first noticed this issue when i went to put a storage voltage on them in the SkyRc mc3000 (used a spacer); the mc3000 throws a _Check Voltage_ error when configured to charge(or discharge) them to 3.3v LiFe storage voltage. I'm running the same program on the mc3000 i use to put a storage charge on some LiFe 3v RCR123's ... so i don't think i am doing anything wrong there. If I tell the mc3000 to storage-charge them as normal LiIon's, it doesn't complain and discharges them to 3.80v.

Are the above voltages expected for LiFe? Could someone shed some light on what's going on?

batteries & charger pic:


charger label. As you can see, it doesn't appear to be labeled to charge 3.0v batteries!

I'm (clearly ) no battery expert -and neither are most posters on the net, generating most of the info that comes up in google results- so I'm not confident I've interpreted the info correctly.

That said, it seems the resting / quiescent open-circuit voltage should be ~~3.3v, definitely not the 3.8v I observe.

Also, it seems the final CV phase of the charge should be ~3.65 volts, although at least one technical site claimed that Li-FePO4 can withstand +0.7v over-voltage on the charge termination without significant degradation to the cell? Other sites seemed to contradict this.

Have you emailed Orbtronics?

recDNA said:

Have you emailed Orbtronics?

Click to expand...

yes. They did reply quickly.

However, they haven't really given me a straight answer. They pointed out that LiFe are generally safer than other chemistries, and that one can typically safely over-charge them.

Regarding the cells having a higher than expected resting voltage, they said "yep, that's why we sell them as a kit", along with some meaningless statements such that there are "only 2 types lifepo4 and regular liion" and "overcharging doesn't really matter". They seem to imply I am only supposed to charge the cr2's with the supplied charger, but (a) do not mention this anywhere on the website or in the package, and (b) the supplied charger is expressly _not_ for LiFePO4...

So, I wanted to ask the experts on CPF!

They may be like the Soshine's 3.0V cells that are regular 3.7V Li-ion cells with a diode used to drop the output voltage. If so, then it is deceptive to label them as LiFePO4 since users will think that they are much safer than normal Li-ion chemistry when they are not.

Gauss163 said:

They may be like the Soshine's 3.0V cells [ ... ] with a diode used to drop the output voltage. [ ...] it is deceptive to label them as LiFePO4

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Yep - the cell phone pics came out pretty blurry; that url on the batteries is indeed www.soshine.com.cn.

The soshine "3.0v liIon" batteries linked at @Gauss163's link are clearly labeled as LiIon, not LiFePO4 ... have you heard in the past about mis-labeling, or just the concept of putting a diode in to lower the output voltage?

I guess if the only option is "liion + diode" or "primary cell only" then the diode sounds OK, but in general that sounds like a poor choice. That 0.7 volt drop across the diode will just get lost as waste heat, and the device will have that much less runtime. If this is the case I'm more than a little disappointed in orbtronic (normally a reputable co)!

littlebattery said:

Yep - the cell phone pics came out pretty blurry; that url on the batteries is indeed www.soshine.com.cn.

The soshine "3.0v liIon" batteries linked at @Gauss163's link are clearly labeled as LiIon, not LiFePO4 ... have you heard in the past about mis-labeling, or just the concept of putting a diode in to lower the output voltage?

I guess if the only option is "liion + diode" or "primary cell only" then the diode sounds OK, but in general that sounds like a poor choice. That 0.7 volt drop across the diode will just get lost as waste heat, and the device will have that much less runtime. If this is the case I'm more than a little disappointed in orbtronic (normally a reputable co)!

Click to expand...

If I were you I would keep stating your question as clearly as possible to Orbtronics.

Are these batteries Li Ion? If not why do you cell a li ion charger with them?

Maybe ask if you can return the whole kit for them to figure out what the story is?

littlebattery said:

[...] The soshine "3.0v liIon" batteries linked at @Gauss163's link are clearly labeled as LiIon, not LiFePO4 ... have you heard in the past about mis-labeling, or just the concept of putting a diode in to lower the output voltage? [...]

Click to expand...

Yes, I've encountered many fake "LiFePO4" packs, even some high-end power packs targeted for medical applications (e.g. power for PCs in medical carts). One should never believe the labels on cells or batteries unless they were obtained directly from a highly reputable and knowledgeable source (which generally does not include resellers or rewrappers).

recDNA said:

return the whole kit for them to figure out what the story is?

Click to expand...

Gauss163 said:

never believe the labels

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I decided to try to capture accurate charge/discharge curves for the batteries, in the hopes that someone could definitively answer this.

Because I think that specific question based on discharge curves is valuable to the community in it's own right, and not specific to this thread/question, i asked it as a specific question in a new thread:
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb...charge-curve-show-these-batteries-are-LiFePO4

Pictures of curves posted for the following sequence:

1. fully charge 2 batteries with the included "LiIon" charger (no picture). They end (after rest) at ~4.15V
2. put in the mc3000 (slot 1,2) and discharge as LiIon (can't discharge as LiFe directly, the charger catches the 4.15 starting/resting voltage as an error). They end (after rest) at ~3.22V
3. still in the mc3000, 'continue' discharging as LiFe. They end (after rest) at ~3.10V
4. re-charge in the mc3000 as LiFe. They end at 3.38V.

When that is answered i will post the verdict as it applies to these specific orbtronic cells on this thread.

littlebattery said:

I'm (clearly ) no battery expert -and neither are most posters on the net, generating most of the info that comes up in google results- so I'm not confident I've interpreted the info correctly.

That said, it seems the resting / quiescent open-circuit voltage should be ~~3.3v, definitely not the 3.8v I observe.

Also, it seems the final CV phase of the charge should be ~3.65 volts, although at least one technical site claimed that Li-FePO4 can withstand +0.7v over-voltage on the charge termination without significant degradation to the cell? Other sites seemed to contradict this.

Click to expand...

From what little I know, you're right on about that. I'll venture a couple of theories here and the experts (like Gauss) can feel free to correct me if I've said anything wrong.

The fact that the charger runs at 4.0V suggests to me that Gauss could be right about the dropping resister, as the charging voltage would also have to be higher to compensate for that. And the fact that your MC3000 won't discharge them to 3.3V could mean the charger is seeing too high an internal resistance because of that dropping resistor, which is basically "fooling" the charger.

It's also possible that they are relabeling as Gauss suggested. I'm a little surprised Orbtronics would do that as I expect them to be at least a cut above your standard, consumer grade Chinese made battery.

However, the weirdest thing is that batteries actually labeled CR2 are supposed to be primaries at 3.0V and are not rechargeable whereas 15720 lithium cobalt oxide batteries should be 3.7V and are rechargeable, along with the 3.3V lithium iron oxide ones. Yet these are labeled "CR2" and "rechargeable."