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Thread: Done to death but...

  1. #1

    Default Done to death but...

    So I have the current truck-lite 7 inch and am not super happy with the low beam. In dark area's (IE out of town) it is actually very good but around the city (I am on the road in the dark a lot) the low beam tends to wash out. I can still see so this is a bit of an emotional issue rather than a performance issue. I have always been tempted to swap in JW Evo 2 lights but....

    I cannot find any evidence that they they are any better. Internet photos of the beam pattern comparisons abound however they are uncontrolled and usually the camera they are taken with is doing some kind of compensation. Truck-Lite also do not seem to publish any diagram of the beam pattern, lux vs distance or anything.

    My high beam lighting is pretty taken care of with Rigid light bar stuff so it is the low beam I am most concerned with.

    Does anyone on this forum have any definitive information I can use to make this decision? Like a real comparison? Yes I have seen the headlight revolution stuff.

    I don't want to spend yet another 500 dollars on lights and be no better off.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    round the city (I am on the road in the dark a lot) the low beam tends to wash out. I can still see so this is a bit of an emotional issue rather than a performance issue.
    It is completely an emotional issue rather than a performance or safety issue. What you are objecting to is being unable to see the foreground light produced by your headlamps when the road surface is brightly lit by street lights. This doesn't have anything at all to do with how well you can see (as you acknowledge, you can see), and even when it's purely dark out, foreground light is not very important to safety. This could easily end your line of thought right here, since you don't want to spend another chunk of money pointlessly.

    You're also correct that photographs are useless for determining anything much about a headlamp's performance, and the Headlight Revolution site's so-called "tests" are a pathetic joke that barely rise to the level of pseudoscience. What you need is an isoscan of the lamps you want to evaluate, and the knowledge/understanding to interpret it. There's a fairly decent explanation here. As for getting the isoscans, that entails buying the headlamp and sending it someplace like Calcoast Labs for photometry. Expect to spend about $350 to $450 per lamp, which is why this information isn't floating around for free. Without that, you can only ask someone who has the information even if they can't send you a copy of the diagram. Having seen isoscans for many of the JW Speaker lamps including the 8700 Evolution 2 and the Truck-Lite, I can say the JW provides more and wider foreground light. That's not really among the reasons I like the JW better than the Truck-Lite. If I already had a set of Truck-Lites and I didn't have money to be throwing around buying different sets of headlamps trying to find one that was more compatible with my emotions...I'd stick with the Truck-Lites and work on understanding that what I'm seeing on brightly-lit city streets is not a deficiency or shortcoming in my headlamps.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Makes perfect sense.

    I currently fill in the void in the foreground light with the VisionX led fogs that I have (and have tilted down) and this helps a real lot except that the temp difference makes the fogs really stand out and from a seeing point of view the peripheral light from the headlamps on the edge of the road is harder to see.

    I am aware that like nearly all things in the Wrangler world this is 90% emotion and 10% functionality for most people.

    I was also thinking of trying to find a kind of low beam light bar but the only people who make a road legal one are JW and again its an arm and a leg.

    I don't see as well as I used to. If the JW was just 10% better I would forget this now. If it is 50% more light then different discussion. As I said I have no information to go on short of finding someone here in South Africa who has JW's and going for a night time street drive. Of course like in the U.S.A. the JW's are what everybody buys. I tried to save money with the Truck-Lites and then wasted more on a set of knock offs then became embroiled in a couple of long running battles over on [another forum] about their complete lack of performance.

    As always you cannot ice skate up hill.
    Last edited by Alaric Darconville; 06-23-2017 at 12:41 PM. Reason: Remove forum name

  4. #4
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    I currently fill in the void in the foreground light with the VisionX led fogs that I have
    Not a good idea.

    and this helps a real lot
    Helps fool you into thinking you're seeing better-- and at the same time, costing you the ability to see more distant objects than you should be able to.

    I don't see as well as I used to.
    Which means you definitely need to stop using fog lamps in the wrong conditions. (Nobody should even START, but definitely stop).

    I tried to save money with the Truck-Lites and then wasted more on a set of knock offs
    Or, "you threw bad money after good" -- the Truck-Lites are fine headlamps, but then you spent money you shouldn't have on those non-performing knock-offs.

    then became embroiled in a couple of long running battles over on [another forum] about their complete lack of performance.
    I hardly go there anymore because it's always the next flavor of noncompliant knockoff crap over there.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Alaric is right: turn your fog lamps off! They only feel like they're helping, they're actually hurting.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Actually these visionx fogs are not really a fog pattern. The are the 20 degree beam ones. I have tested at night and I can see further on low beam with them than I can without them. The risk that I think is there is that the brighter light in front lessens my perception of the lights that the headlamps throw onto the side of the road.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    From time to time, people who don't know much about lighting come on the board asking what start out as reasonable questions (Good! That's what the board is for!) but then devolve into bogus, baseless rationalizations about why a bad idea is really a good idea, or why a bad product is really a good product. Sajk, you sound like you might be headed for that territory.

    Actually these visionx fogs are not really a fog pattern
    Please do two things: (1) Show us on the VisionX website which lamps you have, and (2) go look at your lamps and tell us what markings are on the lens -- if any.

    The are the 20 degree beam ones.
    You mean like these? If so, get them off your car immediately. They have no business on a roadgoing vehicle, because they are not safe or legal for on-road use. These are just housed MR16s, the little 2" round reflector lamps intended for use in track lights you might put in your home, office, or store. Massively too much glare for on-road use in traffic, no matter how you aim them. You don't get to just decide any random light is a fog lamp (or an auxiliary low beam, or a turn signal, or whatever) just because that's what you want it to be. The same applies to me, and to everyone else.

    I have tested
    I don't think you have. Testing takes special equipment and knowledge. I think you've turned the lights on and off and peered into the distance.

  8. #8
    Moderator Alaric Darconville's Avatar
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    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    Actually these visionx fogs are not really a fog pattern.
    This is true of 'most every VisionX lamp. Whatever pattern they're claimed to have, they don't produce.

    I have tested at night and I can see further on low beam with them than I can without them.
    "Tested"? More like guessed. Trusting this sort of "testing" will soon lead to you "testing" your seatbelt.

    The risk that I think is there is that the brighter light in front lessens my perception of the lights that the headlamps throw onto the side of the road.
    The risk is excessive foreground light also affects your ability to see in the distance, on top of interfering with peripheral vision.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaric Darconville View Post
    This is true of 'most every VisionX lamp. Whatever pattern they're claimed to have, they don't produce.


    "Tested"? More like guessed. Trusting this sort of "testing" will soon lead to you "testing" your seatbelt.


    The risk is excessive foreground light also affects your ability to see in the distance, on top of interfering with peripheral vision.

    I was warned you guys are harsh...

    Product

    https://www.quadratec.com/products/97022_041X_PG.htm

    No my test was not conducted using scientific instruments and no I don't understand much about lighting.

    What I do understand is logic, repeatability, edge testing, regression testing and the like.

    I am a software engineer who specialises in system monitoring software and operating system performance. Stuff that works in the cloud and MUST run 7X24X365. I write that. Have for 20 years.


    Now logic tells me that what I can see with my eyes and if I cause discomfort or vision issues for oncoming drivers are the most important criteria here. Sure there is other stuff but in terms of the purpose of lighting this is pretty much it?

    So I used people placed at measured locations at differing distances from the side of the road and down the road. Ten of them. I have some mates who are REAL geeky.

    Then I used the same ten people in differing vehicles to drive towards me and report on their perception of oncoming glare. I think these things are a component of what your testing instruments are attempting to measure.

    At the end of the day while this might be an interesting intellectual discussion it is not academic exercise. For me it is about how this stuff works in the real world as perceived by humans. Just like the experience of if a computer system is slow or not.

    The entire end goal of any scientific measurement of a light is surely to try to determine through measurement how it will impact on people as nothing else uses a light. I just used the people directly.

    So it repeated the experiment and yes I could see better and no the lights didn't cause any more discomfort than the headlights to oncoming traffic. So no numbers no. But in terms of the intended use of the light a fairly valid test with observations by multiple observers that can be repeated.

    So I kind of did the best I could to postulate a theory (I think I will see better with the fogs on) and then try to prove or disprove that theory through observation. This as far as I know is the basis of all science.

    My test of course is far from perfect but I could see people further down the road and further from the edge of the road with the fogs on vs without. Through my eyes. The ones driving. The same people reported no glare problems driving everything from a two door convertible (low) to a dodge ram towards me.

    So let's call it more than a guess but less than lab quality.

    Of course all this is completely off topic on my opening post where I asked for definitive information on two products in order to inform decision making.

    Once again I thank you for your advice and directness. It is why I am here on this forum.
    Last edited by Sajk; 06-25-2017 at 09:04 AM.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    I was warned you guys are harsh...
    Well, we don't go around itching for smackdown opportunities, but we also don't congratulate, aid and abet poor decisions. There are (many) other boards where you can get a big, ignorant round of applause for whatever product you buy and however you use it.

    Not even close to fog lamps. These are very inappropriate (unsafe, illegal) for use in traffic. Turn them permanently off until you either remove them and put in some actual fog lamps, or rewire them to be usable only with the high beams.

    (Shame on Quadratec. Not that I expect any better from them -- this is how they behave -- but there are several really excellent legitimate direct drop-in LED fog lamp options for the Wrangler, at similar price point. You got scammed.)

    Now logic tells me that what I can see with my eyes and if I cause discomfort or vision issues for oncoming drivers
    No, you cannot -- not until you are throwing seriously massive amounts of light in their eyes, far above the levels where it's both painful and unsafe. The human visual system doesn't work the way it feels like it does, so "I know what I can see" types of statements aren't even a little bit valid.

    So I used people placed at measured locations at differing distances from the side of the road and down the road. Ten of them. I have some mates who are REAL geeky.
    Geeky is great, but "Nope, I don't think those are too glaring" (times one, times ten, times a hundred) doesn't come close to equalling "Yep, these are fine to use in traffic". That's just not how any of this works.

    I think these things are a component of what your testing instruments are attempting to measure.
    No. The appropriate testing instrument -- a photogoniometer, does not "attempt" to measure anything. It measures intensity at specified angles. Subjective opinion doesn't enter the question.

    At the end of the day while this might be an interesting intellectual discussion it is not academic exercise. For me it is about how this stuff works in the real world as perceived by humans. Just like the experience of if a computer system is slow or not.
    Your analogy is faulty in a few different ways. For one thing, again, the human visual system does not work the way it feels like it works, so "I don't rely on academic instruments, I go by what I perceive as a human" is not a valid basis. Moreover, a slow vs. fast computer experience doesn't pose any safety threats. Improper lighting on the public roadways does.

    The entire end goal of any scientific measurement of a light is surely to try to determine through measurement how it will impact on people as nothing else uses a light. I just used the people directly.
    Sorry, no. This is an attempt at rationalization, and it fails.

    a fairly valid test
    No matter how often you repeat this, no matter how much you want it to be the case, it's still not.

    So I kind of did the best I could to postulate a theory (I think I will see better with the fogs on)
    They're still not fogs. What you're doing is still unsafe. Stop it.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Can you offer any proof that any of these statements are more than just your opinion?

    And tell an air traffic controller or a fighter pilot that computer performance is not a life treating issue. It is.

    Next time you are in the air think about what would happen if avionics or ATC systems are just that little bit too slow.
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 06-25-2017 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Remove unnecessary whole-message quote

  12. #12

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    I kind of did the best I could to postulate a theory (I think I will see better with the fogs on)
    That's not a theory, it's a hypothesis. And even if you'd wanted to test it, you didn't have the knowledge, equipment, or facilities to do so. And even if you had, the lamps you're curious about aren't fog lamps.

    Can you offer any proof that any of these statements are more than just your opinion?
    Yes, but not in "internet time". It is a complex topic that can't be learned with a handful of sound bites; there's a lot of information to cover. Some resources for you here (a highly excellent broad-based, accessible entree into the field), here (another, more focused on the technology and regulations but with some coverage of the human side), here (another, and this one you can have for free -- jump to pages 21-22 to immediately understand why those things you bought as "fog lamps" aren't fog lamps), here and here (the last two are more advanced texts that go into explanatory detail on the human factors and other science involved).

    And tell an air traffic controller or a fighter pilot that computer performance is not a life treating issue. It is. Next time you are in the air think about what would happen if avionics or ATC systems are just that little bit too slow.
    OK, then: in safety-critical computer installations, is speed determined by some guy like you sitting at the computer, using it in whatever manner you think an ordinary person would use it, and going "Yep, that's fast enough" or "Nope, that's too slow" based on your subjective impression? Or does it involve running prescribed tests that load the computer in various ways and generate objective, numerical test results that are then compared to specifications and benchmarks to determine whether the computer is fast enough?

    We could talk about drinking water safety, too: is it determined by some guy like you drinking a glass of it and going "Tastes OK to me and the ten other guys I asked"? Or is it determined by objective tests for contaminants like lead, bacteria, and VOCs?

    Or air quality: is it measured by some guy like you going outside and saying "I don't smell anything gross, and I'm not having any difficulty breathing, so it's fine...no need for scientific instruments; I'm testing it the way people actually use it"? Or is it determined by objective tests for contaminants like PM-10, NOx, and CO?

    We have Federal safety standards for brakes and seatbelts, too. They contain design, construction, and performance requirements as well as objective test protocols. Why? We could just trust whoever offers something shaped like a brake pad that it's as awesome as they say it is, install it, and have some guy like you get in the car and get it up to...say...70 mph and then stand on the brakes. "They're fine; I tested them the way people use them. The car stopped, the seatbelt didn't break, they're fine."

    Food safety! There are objective requirements for how food is handled, stored, processed, and prepared. How come? Why don't we just get some guy like you to grab a handful of whatever food is in question and eat it? "I didn't get sick, so it's fine...I tested it how people use it".

    Obviously I could keep doing this, but I think the point was made long ago in this thread...for whoever wants to understand; the common element in all these examples is that there's an enormous gap between "so completely awful that it's readily obvious" and "might seem OK but it's not good enough".

    Next time you are in the air think about what would happen if avionics or ATC systems are just that little bit too slow.
    Yeah...next time you are on the road think about what would happen if traffic safety were left up to those who don't know what they're talking about, and just want to do whatever they want to do without being bothered by pesky safety standards and tiresome objective testing with silly scientific equipment.

    Pretty sure we can stick a fork in this one, at least until you've done a chunk of "homework" (reading/learning).
    Last edited by -Virgil-; 06-25-2017 at 03:25 PM.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Thanks for the links to what I hope is factual information. When I have some time when I am not doing this:

    "Or does it involve running prescribed tests that load the computer in various ways and generate objective, numerical test results that are then compared to specifications and benchmarks to determine whether the computer is fast enough? "


    I will devote some time to educating myself further about your world. Perhaps you should also step into the computer system side of what you do considering that the average vehicle runs more than 1 million lines of code today managing everything including that little thing of switching from high beam to low beam. You don't think that is a mechanical function any more do you?

    So time critical functions in systems are about safety and much much more today. We get involved in doing the above for retailers (think how deep the queue is at Walmart), production lines (think about a vehicle factory having to stop or slow) and a bunch of others as well as those I have already mentioned in this thread. Pontificating from the pulpit does not cut it at that level. Of course it involves lots of measurement, maths and optimization in a world where a fraction of a 1/1000 of a second is a long long long time.

    Once again thank you for the information. I shall read and revert if appropriate.

    P.S.

    And I suppose I am guilty of breaking one of my golden rules which is never argue with a person in their area. So for that I am sorry.

    I was irritated that I was directed to this site for facts with a warning that the people on this site are harsh and opinionated. The responses to my honest questions have often degenerated into comments designed to belittle rather than educate one who seeks answers.
    Last edited by Sajk; 06-25-2017 at 10:01 PM.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Done to death but...

    On the whole you will find this board to be very friendly. That said, this particular subforum is run a little more strictly since the advice given involves the legality of vehicle lighting systems and modifications as well as the safety of those on the road. It is much different than other areas of the forum where someone needs a flashlight for dog walking...

    In that regard, the Mods in this area are those who work in the vehicle lighting industry and are experts in their fields. They take their role extremely seriously and do not permit hearsay and anecdotal evidence to be presented as facts since, as noted, safety is involved.

    While the advice given here is often not what people want to hear, it is worth listening to. Unfortunately many people who visit to ask questions about vehicle lighting are teenage tuner boys tricking out their civic with all manner of illegal mods and off road junkies trying to use offroad lighting on highways and creating real hazards. That being the case, perhaps the Mods can be cut a little slack if they are a bit jaded by years of being ignored by those who seek to circumvent laws and safety.

    That said, this is an awesome forum, so stick around and have fun!!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by nbp View Post
    On the whole you will find this board to be very friendly. That said, this particular subforum is run a little more strictly since the advice given involves the legality of vehicle lighting systems and modifications as well as the safety of those on the road. It is much different than other areas of the forum where someone needs a flashlight for dog walking...

    In that regard, the Mods in this area are those who work in the vehicle lighting industry and are experts in their fields. They take their role extremely seriously and do not permit hearsay and anecdotal evidence to be presented as facts since, as noted, safety is involved.

    While the advice given here is often not what people want to hear, it is worth listening to. Unfortunately many people who visit to ask questions about vehicle lighting are teenage tuner boys tricking out their civic with all manner of illegal mods and off road junkies trying to use offroad lighting on highways and creating real hazards. That being the case, perhaps the Mods can be cut a little slack if they are a bit jaded by years of being ignored by those who seek to circumvent laws and safety.

    That said, this is an awesome forum, so stick around and have fun!!
    "While the advice given here is often not what people want to hear, it is worth listening to. Unfortunately many people who visit to ask questions about vehicle lighting are teenage tuner boys tricking out their civic with all manner of illegal mods and off road junkies trying to use offroad lighting on highways and creating real hazards. "

    Accepted and understood. Perhaps this should not ALWAYS be the point of departure.

    The thing about being cynical is that it can make you come across as arrogant and superior which is surely the opposite of what you want to achieve.

    Something we have to guard against in our own business where we try to "let the data decide". A lesson I learnt a very long time ago. Unfortunately I still have been unable to obtain the factual evidence I was seeking in my opening post. Perhaps I cannot without spending money.

    Thank you for chiming in.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    ...Unfortunately I still have been unable to obtain the factual evidence I was seeking in my opening post….
    it seems to me that your request was answered by Virgil in the second post:

    Having seen isoscans for many of the JW Speaker lamps including the 8700 Evolution 2 and the Truck-Lite, I can say the JW provides more and wider foreground light. That's not really among the reasons I like the JW better than the Truck-Lite. If I already had a set of Truck-Lites and I didn't have money to be throwing around buying different sets of headlamps trying to find one that was more compatible with my emotions...I'd stick with the Truck-Lites and work on understanding that what I'm seeing on brightly-lit city streets is not a deficiency or shortcoming in my headlamps.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Perhaps. No facts or quantum of "more and wider" and an opinion that includes the words "I like". Just because someone likes something this does not mean it performs better. Or worse.

    How much is more? 1% or 100%?

    Ditto wider.

    But perhaps as I said this information is not available to mere mortals such as myself. Truck-Lite certainly do not seem to publish it or at least I have not been able to locate it.
    Last edited by Sajk; 06-25-2017 at 11:41 PM.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Done to death but...

    You have asked and have been answered by the moderators of this forum. Looks like this thread has run it's course,

    Bill

  19. #19

    Default Re: Done to death but...

    Quote Originally Posted by Sajk View Post
    Thanks for the links to what I hope is factual information.
    You're welcome.

    the average vehicle runs more than 1 million lines of code today managing everything including that little thing of switching from high beam to low beam. You don't think that is a mechanical function any more do you?
    No.

    Of course it involves lots of measurement, maths and optimization
    Yep, same here, and that's exactly the point: just as your world's parameters aren't determined by guess and by gosh, neither are the ones in the vehicle lighting field.

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