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Thread: IR technology questions.

  1. #1
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default IR technology questions.

    I ask: is there differences in heat efficiencies between different infrared bulbs? Life span of bulb differences? How many technologies are there for ir bulbs? Reflector efficiency variations? How much better is a gold or red reflector than silver? Also, in an ir heat lamp, how much of the heat energy is pure radiation v. conducted and convected heat?


    Light has its applications, but so does focused heat!

    Also, infrared is like compressor tech, need 3000 watts to do exciting stuff with it. Any thoughts on getting 220 15 amps out of a normal house?
    Last edited by degarb; 09-17-2017 at 12:05 PM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

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    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Good explanation of what IR is: http://biosmartsolutions.com/shop/bu...ed-technology/

    Some info concerning bulb differences : http://biosmartsolutions.com/shop/bu...buyers-beware/


    Now, my take on IR advantages : I ignore health claims. Makes sense to heat objects, not areas, and should be ideal for bathroom, exterior job heater, desk heater, couch heater for one person, large workshop too big to heat, and a safer paint stripping tool.


    To me, the reflectors should heat, possibly damaginge the bulb. But at what temperature? How fragile are the bulbs?

    Now, there are IR blankets! How? And why not. IR socks or boot toe end heaters that strap to boot top?
    Last edited by degarb; 09-18-2017 at 05:11 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  3. #3
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Anyone know what the best IR reflector material is? Thinking 550 F, but might need to go 1000 F. Aluminum foil might catch fire or melt at 1 inch from a 550 watt bulb, in an enclosed space. Gold too expensive. Might try polished aluminum sheets, which would likely melt and deform, rather than catch fire as would aluminum tape or foil.

    Thinking I will build my own from ground up. Currently, I am using a unit made of modified two Tradesman 1500 watt, united. 3000 Watt is necessary, from two 110 V. the trick will be a lightweight aluminum housing with melting temp at 800F. This way the heat is better focused as I need.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

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    FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Polished copper is next best to gold, then brass/bronze.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

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    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRITZHID View Post
    Polished copper is next best to gold, then brass/bronze.
    Thanks! Much better info than my Google search.

    I was thinking gold engine heat tape, but doubt it has much real metal in it to reflect. If taped to aluminum, would heat and melt. . Polished copper or brass sheet may doable. Brasso, for polish, I guess.

    Have polished brass in the past. Aluminum, never.(Aluminum would be light, easier to purchase. Though, polished aluminum flashing would be pushing it heatwise. Especially, for my primary purpose of near point blank heating. Guessing half as effective as copper? )

    Hmm. Wonder if my gutter guy would sell me a section of old copper gutter, which cut correctly could be used. However, I need exactly 8.25 inch wide by 10 or 12 inch reflector, containing two 10 inch 1500 watt ir bulbs, for maximum heat concentration on surface that I am cooking.
    Last edited by degarb; 10-27-2017 at 05:27 AM.

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    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Any idea of desirable thickness? 8 mil copper thick enough for a reflector?
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

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    FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Well, the thicker the better but the polish is the more contributing factor. Best polish you can muster.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

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    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Any thoughts on reflector shape? The tradesman ir bulb 12ish typical cylinder. For weight reason I am thinking oval. Two bulbs, two 4.1 inch semi circle polished copper reflectors for each bulb in parallel, rather than one reflector for both. In my mind, circle beats oval for better rear heat reflection. However, a squished circle would mean less metal to move around. Also as the reflector heats up, storing heat from inefficiencies, I want that heat to help melt/cook the surface upon which I am focusing upon.
    Last edited by degarb; 10-28-2017 at 06:09 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  9. #9
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    On a side note, what amperage service do the 220 homes have where you are?

    Here, most 110V breakers might handle 1800 watts on a good day. But to run a decent electric power washer, compressor for air tools/paint/ blast, and IR, you need double to quadruple on circuit rated power.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  10. #10
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Maybe I should go propane? But wonder how many hours a tank would hold out.

    https://m.ebay.com/itm/Thermablaster....c100408.m2460
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  11. #11
    FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Most outlets where I am are good for about 2400 watts on the 120v side.
    As far as reflector shape.... You'd have to experiment, everything I worked with was flat. (IR bounce mirrors)
    Propane.... Well, I guess that depends on what and where your doing this project.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

  12. #12
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRITZHID View Post
    everything I worked with was flat. (IR bounce mirrors)
    What was your project? I haven't revealed mine, since I don't want to derail with comments on the task and my chosen approach. I have chosen IR, and now need to make it more focused in an area 8.1 inches by 12ish, with as much heat as possible, yet evenly distributed.

    Looks like 5100 btu per 1500 watt of electric. I am not sure if this holds for IR. So, I am using 3000 watt electric IR (two heatstorm tradesman 1500s, bolted together.) 10200 btus. With current efficiencies, I expect I need another 5000 btus to be truly happy. However, with copper reflector, and reducing the 10 inch width to 8, I might get what I need without a third circuit. (2 cords are practical, even on different circuits. Not 3.) The propane looks promising, if true IR. Gas usage cost and dimensions of heating head, might be a concern.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Some co-workers and I were experimenting with laser bounce mirrors for an old co2 laser. Had a full machine shop at our access, incl polishing equipment.
    It started from playing around with one of the old, solid copper, gold plated mirrors from it's beam path, from there we just started testing various things.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

  14. #14
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Hmm. No magnatism in the heat storm current reflector. Looks like just thin aluminum flashing. A bit too thin, as I was washing it, it wanted to deform.

    How much better do you think copper would be. I am not against putting a hundred into the reflector, if heating my working surface works better.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  15. #15
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by degarb View Post
    Hmm. No magnatism in the heat storm current reflector. Looks like just thin aluminum flashing. A bit too thin, as I was washing it, it wanted to deform.

    How much better do you think copper would be. I am not against putting a hundred into the reflector, if heating my working surface works better.
    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/s...ls-d_1568.html

    https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/e...nts-d_447.html

    I am wondering if the effectiveness may be related to the emissivity table, linked above. Since, I cannot find any heat reflective table of various metals, yet.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  16. #16
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    I found a local sheet metal shop, who made one copper reflector to test.

    The result, side by side Heatstorm.com Tradesman 1500Watt units, the one with the copper reflector was significantly cooler when touching the outside body than the unit with the stock reflector. Both bodies are heavily vented to avoid getting obnoxiously hot. This means more heat was projected forward on to the object being heated.


    Now, his copper was pretty shiny. But there were scratches, and perhaps I can do better. I never polished copper so currently very little idea. Did see a vet spend an hour polishing a brass door knob with brasso and a rag, to super shine.

    I found this website with a fair explanation of attainable short, fast reacting, mid wave bulbs.
    http://www.emittedenergy.com/infrared-emitters.html
    So, I am guessing the short creates more superficial heat, while mid goes deeper into objects. They don't say whether carbon or tungsten bulbs last longer... (So, for my use, really need two mid bulbs, plus one fast reactor bulb with 180 gold toward rear of my 8.5 inch by 2.5 inch deep copper reflector, would be ideal-each bulb 1600 watts. But, probably not practical. Two cords, two breakers, are practical. And I can only see a generator pushing 800 watts. So maybe put an optional 800 watt fast bulb, plus minimal wire and cord, in with minimal weight addition. Used only as a turbo mode when a 3rd circuit is available, or cheap 800 watt generator is around.
    Last edited by degarb; 11-03-2017 at 06:45 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  17. #17
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Any thoughts on electric ceramic ir? : . https://m.ebay.com/itm/Ceramicx-FTE-...t/161756729895

    I am guessing it emits from both sides, front and back, making it not so great as a object heater? Also, guessing shorter wavelength?
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  18. #18
    FRITZHID's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    That looks more like a downward "warming" unit for say... animals, food maybe, or perhaps preheating of materials...? i day at 800w and being that size, that i would not make a very effective source for your project. just my 2 cents.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

  19. #19
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Quote Originally Posted by FRITZHID View Post
    That looks more like a downward "warming" unit for say... animals, food maybe, or perhaps preheating of materials...? i day at 800w and being that size, that i would not make a very effective source for your project. just my 2 cents.
    Just pondering 6 of these. Or, one or two to rear as my 3rd circuit, supplemental turbo to the two 1500Watt bulbs. Just pondering, hypothetical questions. However, at $16 might be worth it as a light duty, unit. A little sheet metal, some aluminum, a handle - nothing serious.

    Anyway, ordered one, and will find out first hand.

    I have not had time yet to find out cost to gold plate my 17x8 by 3.5 inch deep copper reflector to prevent heat induced oxidizing. Also, probably will youtube how it is done, if that saves money.


    I did find out that Emitted Energy sells 1600w 16inch heating area carbon fast response, mid wave tubes for $90 a pop. 180 degree ceramic reflector on bulb rear side, which reflects 70 percent of the heat. I assume the 30% ir not reflected is converted to heat, which is not what i want. I wish to melt from inside out, not ignite. . Their term, "fast response", is meaningless to me as yet. So, obviously, my current carbon tube source is cheaper. I would not consider switching, unless better. . Now, they steer us away from gold rear reflector on bulb, as it flakes off.... Emitted Energy custom makes the bulbs, so I assume 120 degree might be possible.

    Maybe a mini 120 reflector an inch behind bulb, copper with gold plating, in addition to unplated copper rear would be more cost efficient?
    Last edited by degarb; 11-07-2017 at 05:00 PM.

  20. #20
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    https://youtu.be/_PmJGOcBZQI



    This guy is awesome! But, is gold plating necessarily this complicated, with so many chemicals, and look so methy?

    I subscribed to his channel, based on this one video.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    That's Cody, he's very popular and quite learned. I'd say (haven't watched that particular vid) that he's most likely on the ball on the how-to vids.
    if your not wearing a #12 welding screen than it ain't bright enough! "Hand-Sun H.I.D." 55w & 75w, Rocky 3w LED, Stanley 109 35w mod'd, Maxa-Beam Gen II, 55w hid/100w incan Vector Twin, 400w MH long arc, 100w MH mid arc. Amondotech n30, vss-3A.

  22. #22
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    Here is a must read: http://www.deltat.com/pdf/Infrared%2...ansmission.pdf

    Now, after read it, i finally understand why your heat sinks should be flat black, your home walls inside and out glossy, and my gut was right that Emissivity and reflection are directly inverse. Also, as an object absorbs ir should also emit it. So, by lining the shiny copper reflector with the aluminum (oxidation reason), perhaps some of that absorbed or into heat,reemitted as ir on the back side of the aluminum , can be reflected back into the aluminum from the copper, for front side emissions. Definitely need a sealed air gap between the aluminum and copper to avoid conducting heat to the copper from the aluminum reflector, which probably isn't feasible. (End of my brain dead fall back, if gold plating proves too costly, even if bulb specific defectors is too costly. But, I don't see cleaning the copper each hour as viable. And think the ceramic 180 is bad with only 70% reflection. No price on flakey gold bulb rear.) Assuming brass might behave like copper, but not done the research.

    I probably should invest in an ir thermometer that can go to 1400F or higher. But about tested out, for now. The priority is a 4500 watt unit body. I can't seem to get lit up for taking propane ir any further. Probably, the one stumble, one thing that breaks, one gust of wind, and fire splashes everywhere. And those fire stains can be rather challenging to get out of a house, burned to a crisp.
    Last edited by degarb; 11-07-2017 at 10:36 PM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

  23. #23
    Flashaholic* degarb's Avatar
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    Default Re: IR technology questions.

    I have clear epoxy i could coat the copper reflector, to prevent oxidization. Maybe urethane. But, have not considered, because I found melting point of epoxy glue and high temperature paint disappointingly low on some flame test I did last winter.

    But according to the literature, epoxy is ir unresponsive. However, until i can vent and blow cool the rear, the heat build up over time should melt the epoxy. One square inch test may answer the question.
    Last edited by degarb; 11-08-2017 at 07:01 AM.
    Some people are all lumens and no lux, while others are all lux and no lumens. Some just thank God they have neither.-- All of my lights have throw--some pretty darn far, into the garbage.

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