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Thread: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

  1. #331

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by holygeez03 View Post
    For those interested... I ordered my MKIV Plus on December 10th and according to USPS tracking, it should arrive today.
    Yes, interested. I ordered January 10th, so I will not expect my mk iv plus until mid-February, unfortunately. Enjoy yours and share your impressions if you wish.
    Last edited by dmsoule; 01-13-2018 at 07:58 PM.

  2. #332
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by dmsoule View Post
    Yes, interested. I ordered January 10th, so I will not expect my mk iv plus until mid-February, unfortunately. Enjoy yours and share your impressions if you wish.
    When I emailed Zebralight about wait times, I was told there was a 3-4 week backlog until units were shipped out. That was end of Dec. Maybe they've caught up with stock a bit since then.

  3. #333
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by JStraus View Post
    I's love to hear your impressions between the 64c and 64w. I sold a 63w and got the 64c. I never got to mess with the 63w and 64c side by side but the temp seemed about the same. I like the beam pattern of the 64c better than the 63. And of course the programmability.

    If you have time, it would be nice to hear a quick comparison between the 64c and 64w for output, beam, and tint!
    Not exactly what you asked for, but I have the SC63w, and jumped at the SC64c when it was announced. I'll start by saying that, by themselves, both are great; if you gave me one or the other by themselves and asked me to guess which you gave me, it would be very hard for me to tell. Beam patterns are identical.

    Side by side, the SC64c is a little dimmer and warmer. Due to the color temp and CRI, reds, browns, and greens look less washed out and more pleasing to my eyes. Again, differences are subtle, and only really noticable when side by side.

    For me, the more I use flashlights, the more I find myself ignoring lumen numbers, and selecting lights only with the exact color temp and CRI that I want. Fwiw, YMMV, yadda yadda--best of luck!

  4. #334
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by JStraus View Post
    I's love to hear your impressions between the 64c and 64w. I sold a 63w and got the 64c. I never got to mess with the 63w and 64c side by side but the temp seemed about the same. I like the beam pattern of the 64c better than the 63. And of course the programmability.

    If you have time, it would be nice to hear a quick comparison between the 64c and 64w for output, beam, and tint!
    Sorry, I forgot to tell you I gave a comparison in the Official Zebralight Thread. Post #1540.

  5. #335

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    I just found these beamshots of the D4 and am extremely impressed.
    http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/th...isar-d4.58828/
    http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/th...itecore.58515/ Post #4

    The D4 beam is what I hoped the SC600 MK 4 Plus would have, but it is not to be. Its wild tint shift across its beam is another disappointment.
    Perhaps ZL would look into TIR optics and multiple emitters in single 18650 lights in the future.
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  6. #336
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    I just found these beamshots of the D4 and am extremely impressed.
    http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/th...isar-d4.58828/
    http://www.taschenlampen-forum.de/th...itecore.58515/ Post #4

    The D4 beam is what I hoped the SC600 MK 4 Plus would have, but it is not to be. Its wild tint shift across its beam is another disappointment.
    Perhaps ZL would look into TIR optics and multiple emitters in single 18650 lights in the future.
    Those beamshots don't show the SC600w MKIV Plus or am I missing something?

    Of course the Plus would have different beam profile as it is a reflector mounted Cree and one of the new fully phosphor coated ones to boot(which are widely know to have a more off coloured corona). The Plus's tint shift across the beam is only slightly worse then your average Cree's and doesnt really matter much in actual use(especially outdoors). Quads are hugely inefficient and so are TIR optics so, I doubt you will ever see ZL do a similar light as efficiency is one of their things. It is a trade off really, the D4 gets hot and steps down crazy fast(less then 15 seconds) and gets terrible runtimes due to its quad emitter design and inefficient driver. The TIR optic is also stealing around 15% of its output and has very little throw. The Plus on the other hand heats up slowly comparatively and will run for minutes in use even on H1. It also gets crazy long runtimes(5.1 hours at 358 lumens) and outputs 98-99% of its light due to the efficient reflector and AR coated glass design. You just have to decide if tint consistency across the beam alone is worth giving up all the benefits a ZL offers(there are many in addition to the much better thermal performance and efficiency).

    Honestly, if ZL was going to try and improve their beam quality, I would just like to see them throw a single high CRI Nichia 144A in one of these.
    Last edited by Tachead; 01-16-2018 at 08:11 AM.

  7. #337
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    Those beamshots don't show the SC600w MKIV Plus or am I missing something?

    Of course the Plus would have different beam profile as it is a reflector mounted Cree and one of the new fully phosphor coated ones to boot(which are widely know to have a more off coloured corona). The Plus's tint shift across the beam is only slightly worse then your average Cree's and doesnt really matter much in actual use(especially outdoors). Quads are hugely inefficient and so are TIR optics so, I doubt you will ever see ZL do a similar light as efficiency is one of their things. It is a trade off really, the D4 gets hot and steps down crazy fast(less then 15 seconds) and gets terrible runtimes due to its quad emitter design and inefficient driver. The TIR optic is also stealing around 15% of its output and has very little throw. The Plus on the other hand heats up slowly comparatively and will run for minutes in use even on H1. It also gets crazy long runtimes(5.1 hours at 358 lumens) and outputs 98-99% of its light due to the efficient reflector and AR coated glass design. You just have to decide if tint consistency across the beam alone is worth giving up all the benefits a ZL offers(there are many in addition to the much better thermal performance and efficiency).

    Honestly, if ZL was going to try and improve their beam quality, I would just like to see them throw a single high CRI Nichia 144A in one of these.
    How are quads ineficient? I thought running more LEDs make a light more efficient because the lumen efficiency is better at lower outputs. So running four LEDs at 1/4 output per LED is more efficient than running a single LED at equivalent total output.

  8. #338
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by NPL View Post
    How are quads ineficient? I thought running more LEDs make a light more efficient because the lumen efficiency is better at lower outputs. So running four LEDs at 1/4 output per LED is more efficient than running a single LED at equivalent total output.
    The quads I have use FET drivers, and so does the D4 I think. Maybe that's what he meant by saying they're inefficient.

    But yeah, I don't see why you couldn't use a better driver in a quad to get good efficiency.

  9. #339

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Unfortunately the MKIV Plus isn't as amazing as I hoped thus far, relative to my SC62w that it's replacing for "yard duty"... the temp/tint is not overly "colored", but the shift between hotspot, corona, and spill is more annoying than I expected based on the beamshots... it's probably worse for me right now due to the snow on the ground.

    The much bigger hotspot certainly makes it better for yard duty and after using it for a long time, going back to the SC62w will probably be more notable, but I'm not as surprised/impressed as I hoped I would be.

    Despite all of the comparison photos, I was still surprised by how small the light is... that being said, I wish Zebralight would let the SC600 be a little bigger and use a head/reflector that better suits the XHP50 emitter.

    I have considered trying the HI and deciding which I like better, but I am pretty sure the narrow beam profile will annoy me even more for my planned usage. The regular SC600w MKIV might be what I am looking for, but that is getting even closer to my SC62w specs...

  10. #340

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    Those beamshots don't show the SC600w MKIV Plus or am I missing something?

    Of course the Plus would have different beam profile as it is a reflector mounted Cree and one of the new fully phosphor coated ones to boot(which are widely know to have a more off coloured corona). The Plus's tint shift across the beam is only slightly worse then your average Cree's and doesnt really matter much in actual use(especially outdoors). Quads are hugely inefficient and so are TIR optics so, I doubt you will ever see ZL do a similar light as efficiency is one of their things. It is a trade off really, the D4 gets hot and steps down crazy fast(less then 15 seconds) and gets terrible runtimes due to its quad emitter design and inefficient driver. The TIR optic is also stealing around 15% of its output and has very little throw. The Plus on the other hand heats up slowly comparatively and will run for minutes in use even on H1. It also gets crazy long runtimes(5.1 hours at 358 lumens) and outputs 98-99% of its light due to the efficient reflector and AR coated glass design. You just have to decide if tint consistency across the beam alone is worth giving up all the benefits a ZL offers(there are many in addition to the much better thermal performance and efficiency).

    Honestly, if ZL was going to try and improve their beam quality, I would just like to see them throw a single high CRI Nichia 144A in one of these.
    Firstly, beamshots of the plus by itself and in direct comparison with other lights and other ZL models have been floating around. Secondly, that huge beamshot collection over at TLF includes many ZLs with new emitters, so I have a very good idea of what the plus's beam pattern looks like relative to the others.

    Of course TIRs produce a different beam pattern than a reflector; that's elementary and obvious. However, with the right combination of reflector and emitter, a beam very close if not almost identical to that of the D4 can be had. Just look at the Acebeam EC50 Gen 2. Before you state the obvious again, yes I know that uses the 70 series emitter as opposed to the 50 series in the ZLs.

    When the plus was first introduced, and I saw that it paired a relatively large emitter in a small reflector, I hoped that it would have a beam similar to that of the Acebeam. Turns out It doesn't. And like you say, the plus's beam isn't markedly different from the 63 and 64s.

    BTW, I'm not saying the D4 is "better" than the plus. I know the inherent inefficiency of the D4's driver. I wouldn't choose the D4 either for that reason.
    Last edited by scs; 01-16-2018 at 10:48 AM.
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  11. #341
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    The quads I have use FET drivers, and so does the D4 I think. Maybe that's what he meant by saying they're inefficient.

    But yeah, I don't see why you couldn't use a better driver in a quad to get good efficiency.
    Yes, I was speaking in a general sense. Every quad I have ever used or seen tested was pretty inefficient and got hot extremely fast. With a ZL designed driver they would be likely be better however.

    He is right though that emitters are generally more efficient at lower drive levels but, we have to keep in mind that it is not a huge difference, especially at higher outputs. Also, the D4 uses older generation Crees and Nichias which are all less efficient then the brand new XHP50.2 to start with.

    The other issue is when using quad emitters in a tiny light like the SC600, a quad optic is really the only option and these optics offer little to no throw and reduce light output by about 13-14% when compared to reflector designs which further lowers efficiency and generates more heat.

  12. #342
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by scs View Post
    Firstly, beamshots of the plus by itself and in direct comparison with other lights and other ZL models have been floating around. Secondly, that huge beamshot collection over at TLF includes many ZLs with new emitters, so I have a very good idea of what the plus's beam pattern looks like relative to the others.

    Of course TIRs produce a different beam pattern than a reflector; that's elementary and obvious. However, with the right combination of reflector and emitter, a beam very close if not almost identical to that of the D4 can be had. Just look at the Acebeam EC50 Gen 2. Before you state the obvious again, yes I know that uses the 70 series emitter as opposed to the 50 series in the ZLs.

    When the plus was first introduced, and I saw that it paired a relatively large emitter in a small reflector, I hoped that it would have a beam similar to that of the Acebeam. Turns out It doesn't. And like you say, the plus's beam isn't markedly different from the 63 and 64s.

    BTW, I'm not saying the D4 is "better" than the plus. I know the inherent inefficiency of the D4's driver. I wouldn't choose the D4 either for that reason.
    I can tell you, because I have owned both, that the Plus's beam is similar to the SC63/64 but has a slightly larger hotspot and spill. Other then that, beam wise the only difference is it's corona has a slightly stronger tint shift(but, not a crazy amount stronger).

    Not really. A reflector will always give a less even beam unless a frosted lens is used. The reason the EC50 Gen 2's beam is different is because it has a much larger reflector and uses the XHP70 which doesnt have the full phosphor coating. Cree's new full phosphor coating used on the XHP50.2, XHP70.2, XP-G3, and XP-L2 causes a more off coloured corona due to the phosphor that is not over the dies being less excited.

    The Plus's beam isn't markedly different(just a bit larger hotspot and brighter spill) but, it is a lot brighter and gets hot way slower then the SC63/64 on H1. So, it still offers some advantages.

    Yeah, the only thing the D4 really has going for it over the Plus is a better emitter selection and a more even beam.
    Last edited by Tachead; 01-16-2018 at 12:44 PM.

  13. #343

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    ...Yeah, the only thing the D4 really has going for it over the Plus is a better emitter selection and a more even beam.
    D4 can do many things a Zebralight SC600 can't, such as:

    * Can run on different cell types: 18350, 18500 or 18650 cells, by using the appropriate battery tube.
    * Twice the lumen output. At 4200 lumens, has nearly twice the maximum lumen output of a Zebralight SC600 IV plus.
    * Has an excellent ramping UI that seemless ramps between 150 brightness steps over 2.5 seconds. It feels a lot like an infinitely variable ring light.
    * Is easily modded. When better emitters come out you can easily swap them in. In contrast, Zebralights are notoriously difficult to mod.
    * Is much cheaper ($40 for the cheapest D4 compared to about $100 for an SC600 IV)
    * Is available in Titanium/copper for those who like Bling.

  14. #344
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireclaw18 View Post
    D4 can do many things a Zebralight SC600 can't, such as:

    * Can run on different cell types: 18350, 18500 or 18650 cells, by using the appropriate battery tube.
    * Twice the lumen output. At 4200 lumens, has nearly twice the maximum lumen output of a Zebralight SC600 IV plus.
    * Has an excellent ramping UI that seemless ramps between 150 brightness steps over 2.5 seconds. It feels a lot like an infinitely variable ring light.
    * Is easily modded. When better emitters come out you can easily swap them in. In contrast, Zebralights are notoriously difficult to mod.
    * Is much cheaper ($40 for the cheapest D4 compared to about $100 for an SC600 IV)
    * Is available in Titanium/copper for those who like Bling.
    It also uses cheap Chinese aluminum, has much lower quality anodizing, has less refined machining, is not potted, uses a PWM riddled inefficient driver that possesses no where near the level of sophistication the ZL driver does, has less advanced/accurate thermal regulation, is less weather proof, uses a non-recessed button that allows wear on the rubber boot and accidental activation, and has basically no warranty.

    It should also be pointed out that that 4200 lumens is only with the more expensive HI emitters(the others are much lower). And, that is only about a 20% increase in perceived brightness(not very significant at all in actual use) and it can only hold that for about 15 seconds. The Plus can hold it's 2300 lumens for minutes. Even with no passive or active cooling it will hold a near perfectly flat regulated 2300 lumens for 60+ seconds at room temperature.

    Although they both have their pluses and minuses the D4 is still just a "budget light" and is not in the same class a ZL. That is why it is less money.

    This is a ZL thread so lets get back on topic.
    Last edited by Tachead; 01-16-2018 at 03:02 PM.

  15. #345

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Nicely put. Also a ramping UI is useless. You can never gage the runtimes by "eyeballing" the output. ZL is definitely in different league.

    Anyone have more input into the SC600 plus vs Hi?

  16. #346
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by R2RO View Post
    Nicely put. Also a ramping UI is useless. You can never gage the runtimes by "eyeballing" the output. ZL is definitely in different league.

    Anyone have more input into the SC600 plus vs Hi?
    I can give a comparison as soon as my HI gets here(should be early next week)and I have a bit of time to put it though it's paces.

  17. #347

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by NPL View Post
    How are quads ineficient? I thought running more LEDs make a light more efficient because the lumen efficiency is better at lower outputs. So running four LEDs at 1/4 output per LED is more efficient than running a single LED at equivalent total output.
    Regarding quad efficiency: Actually a quad should be more efficient to make the same amount of light. LEDs get less efficient the higher the power you run them. With 4 LEDs you should be able to run a D4 at fewer amps to get the same amount of light as a single LED emitter.

    The XHP 50.2 is a 4-die emitter, however its component dies are all smaller than XPL HI dies. Note that this disregards driver inefficiency. The D4 uses PWM so isn't as efficient as the Zebralight's current controlled driver except at 100% power (which pulls more amps than a Zebralight) and at the 1x7135 level (350 mAh current). On the upside the advantage of a PWM driver is zero tint shift at any brightness. Many Zebralights with current-controlled drivers see their tint shift to ugly green when run at low power.

    Regarding optics: My understanding is TIR optics, such as that used in the D4, are universally MORE efficient than traditional reflector/lens optics. An AR coated lens on a Zebralight might be 99% efficient, but the aluminum coating on the reflector is probably only 70-85% efficient. More light is absorbed by the metallic reflector than is absorbed through the back of a TIR optic, which can be up to 90% efficient. The main advantage of using a traditional reflector and lens combo is to get the familiar spot/spill beam pattern, not for efficiency.

    Check this thread for some interesting source material on optics and reflectors used in flashlights http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/...ics-Light-Loss
    Last edited by Fireclaw18; 01-18-2018 at 02:51 PM.

  18. #348
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireclaw18 View Post
    The D4 uses PWM so isn't as efficient as the Zebralight's current controlled driver except at 100% power (which pulls more amps than a Zebralight) and at the 1x7135 level (350 mAh current).
    I disagree that a 7135 chip is as efficient as a proper boost-driver. The 7135 is a linear driver that will convert excess voltage into heat. The excess voltage is voltage that is higher than is required by the LED at 350mA, usually around 3v. It's kind of like putting a resistor in series with an LED; the resistor consumes some voltage and turns it into heat. The 7135 is only efficient when the battery voltage is approximately what the forward voltage of the LED is + a bit extra for running the chip.

  19. #349

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    I disagree that a 7135 chip is as efficient as a proper boost-driver. The 7135 is a linear driver that will convert excess voltage into heat. The excess voltage is voltage that is higher than is required by the LED at 350mA, usually around 3v. It's kind of like putting a resistor in series with an LED; the resistor consumes some voltage and turns it into heat. The 7135 is only efficient when the battery voltage is approximately what the forward voltage of the LED is + a bit extra for running the chip.
    Good point. Bottom line is the Zebralight should considerably more runtime than a D4, and more runtime at max brightness than a D4. However, the D4 will considerably higher max brightness, more brightness options, and less tint shift.

  20. #350

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Tachead View Post
    The other issue is when using quad emitters in a tiny light like the SC600, a quad optic is really the only option and these optics offer little to no throw and reduce light output by about 13-14% when compared to reflector designs which further lowers efficiency and generates more heat.
    Is that 13-14% on top of reflector and lens designs?

  21. #351
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by 18650 View Post
    Is that 13-14% on top of reflector and lens designs?
    As Fireclaw pointed out we don't really know how much the reflector is lowering transmission. It depends on a number of factors including coating type, level of OP, geometry, etc. But, the lens itself is stealing far less then an acrylic optic.

    Now let's get back on topic guys. We can start a new thread if we want to further discuss optics, quads, or the D4. This thread is about the ZL SC600w MKIV Plus XHP50.2.
    Last edited by Tachead; 01-19-2018 at 06:22 AM.

  22. #352

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    I wonder if I should order now while its on backorder and wait 2 months for it to arrive, or wait till they have it in stock and hopefully one wait a few weeks.

  23. #353
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by Fireclaw18 View Post
    I wonder if I should order now while its on backorder and wait 2 months for it to arrive, or wait till they have it in stock and hopefully one wait a few weeks.
    You will likely get it faster if you just order and wait. That way at least you are in line so to speak. But, if you aren't in a rush then I guess it doesn't really matter either way.

  24. #354
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Hi, guys. I just ordered mine. It took 3 days to be shipped, it was fast considering it was backordered. I have one doubt i have an unprotect panasonic 2900mah 18650, will it work? I live in Brazil, there is no online store that ships the 18650ga to me.
    FENIX LD20 R4, TK12 R5, TK21 U2, TK35, QUARK Mini AA R5, THRUNITE A1. Zebralight SC51, now the SC52 on 14500 and Eagletac G25C2 MKII!

  25. #355
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by ieslei View Post
    I live in Brazil, there is no online store that ships the 18650ga to me.
    Try aliexpress, and search for the Sunway Store. I recently ordered some Sony VT6 from there. I can PM you the link if you want (I don't think CPF allows me to post it). They also have Samsung 30Q's, which definitely fits in the Zebralight. Free shipping, prices are okay if ordering more than 1, and they seem to be one of the last places what will ship worldwide (they use Turkey post which still allows lithium-ion batteries). I can't vouch for them, but based on the reviews they seem legit, and my tracking number is in the system. I'm assuming slow, though, so I don't expect I'll get the batteries for at least a month.

  26. #356
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by WalkIntoTheLight View Post
    Try aliexpress, and search for the Sunway Store. I recently ordered some Sony VT6 from there. I can PM you the link if you want (I don't think CPF allows me to post it). They also have Samsung 30Q's, which definitely fits in the Zebralight. Free shipping, prices are okay if ordering more than 1, and they seem to be one of the last places what will ship worldwide (they use Turkey post which still allows lithium-ion batteries). I can't vouch for them, but based on the reviews they seem legit, and my tracking number is in the system. I'm assuming slow, though, so I don't expect I'll get the batteries for at least a month.
    Thanks for the answer. Sunway store doesnt have the 18650GA for sale, only samsung's. The ones that i have are not up for the task? I read the specification is 9A max discharge current for the 2900, is it possible, at least for while?
    FENIX LD20 R4, TK12 R5, TK21 U2, TK35, QUARK Mini AA R5, THRUNITE A1. Zebralight SC51, now the SC52 on 14500 and Eagletac G25C2 MKII!

  27. #357
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by ieslei View Post
    Thanks for the answer. Sunway store doesnt have the 18650GA for sale, only samsung's. The ones that i have are not up for the task? I read the specification is 9A max discharge current for the 2900, is it possible, at least for while?
    You don't have to use the GA for the Zebralight. It will give you a little more run-time, but not much compared to a 30Q or VT6. The latter two cells maintain a higher voltage during the discharge, so will allow a Zebralight to run a little longer than if you based it just on mAh. In other words, the watt-hours of a GA and VT6 at high-current are not very different. At low current, the GA will perform longer, but you get very long run-times from any battery at low currents.

    Anyway, getting your second or third choice battery is better than getting no battery at all.

  28. #358

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    How many amps max does the Plus pull at its highest setting?

  29. #359
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    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    Quote Originally Posted by holygeez03 View Post
    How many amps max does the Plus pull at its highest setting?
    I don't think anyone has measured it but, I would guess 8 or less(probably less) and only on H1 with a almost depleted cell.

  30. #360

    Default Re: Zebralight SC600w IV Plus

    I am having a really hard time getting over the completely purple ring at the very outer edge of my Plus beam... I assume this is normal?

    It doesn't even seem to be from tint-shift, it appears to be the light bouncing off the steel bezel and picking up the purple tint from the AR coating?

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