Reliability & Safety - 1x18650 versus 2xCR123a -are Surefire/Elzetta right?

WebHobbit

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This is probably an old debate and I have searched for previous threads but none seem to get right to this question. Elzetta and and Surefire's position seems to be that for "serious" (Military, Law Enforcement) usage the ONLY option for modern powerful LED flashlights is the 2xCR123a format. They always say the rechargeable options are too unreliable and may fail at the worst possible time. But lets look hard at that. I guess there are really two different aspects here if we don't factor economics into the debate - RELIABILITY and SAFETY.

Reliability - I think I would have to give this to the CR123a primary as they can take temperature extremes better than the 18650s can. It's been discussed how the protection built into Protected 18650 cells could "go off" due to recoil and rough handling thus protecting against venting episode but rendering the light unusable....BUT don't Surefire primaries have a similar built in protection circuit?

Safety - Am I wrong in assuming that the fact that 2xCR123a have two cells in a series would make them inherently MORE likely to have a venting episode than a single 18650 setup? So wouldn't 1x18650 be safer than 2xcr123a?

Thoughts?


(and if this should go under the battery section then mods please move it -I wasn't sure where this should go)
 

matt4350

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I've read of a couple guys having an issue with their protected batteries failing after the light was knocked/dropped/hit. If I recall correctly, their lights were still fine but the battery within made them unusable. So I imagine if you have an unprotected cell, you would have increased reliability. That said, the majority of users of these types of lights are unlikely to be 'flashaholics' or even care about the differences in cells (that's just an opinion with absolutely no research to back it up!). Might also be a perception thing too: plenty of horror stories circulating about lithium ion batteries going up but you don't hear too much about primaries going up.
 

WebHobbit

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I guess my point is IF the real reason for 99% of Elzetta and SF's lights are 2xcr123a format is reliability then maybe they SHOULD only be doing 1xcr123a
 

Woods Walker

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One pro to 1X18650 is you don't need to worry about accidentally mixing batteries. A dead CR123 with full. If you know your light and measure the voltage unprotected is just fine IMHO. For me CR123s are for ER lights and deep winter. 16650 or 18650 for normal use.
 

Woods Walker

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And what about 18650 protected versus CR123a?
I never had a problem with protected 18650. But for me beyond the Internet discourse few things in life are truly this vs that rather what is available and what might work best for a need.
 

archimedes

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Excellent thread topic, WebHobbit ....

I do think this would get more visibility and be more appropriately located in Batteries, however
 

TimeOnTarget

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I think that it is inherent in our nature to want the best, fastest, strongest, prettiest, most reliable, etc.

I own an ElZetta Alpha and Bravo. They were the most expensive flashlights that I ever bought at the time. I decided to spend the coin after doing a lot of research and believing that these really are superb, purpose built lights.

However, I somehow made it through 2 wars with only a WalMart $20 LED light. Knowing what I know now, and considering what is available, I would never go to war again with cheap lights. I simply know too much now...

I believe Dave at ElZetta is being as honest as he can when he tells you that if reliability is paramount, go with primary 123's.

I have 16650's and dummy 123's so that I can run my Bravo with other cells only because I can, and I like options. Luckily, I have the ways and means to have many options, but if push comes to shove, I will use primaries.
 

archimedes

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Ok, thread moved.

And now here are a few of my thoughts on this topic ....

You are absolutely correct to separate safety and reliability, as these are at least partially independent factors.

All systems can fail, and systems with more parts have more ways to fail.

All types of currently available commercial batteries have multiple types of "protection" mechanisms (not exclusively referring to "protection circuits" here) , and these do differ on primary and secondary cells.

All of these mechanisms (generally speaking) increase safety, but may reduce reliability.

Ambient temperature, storage issues, environmental exposures, and related issues may also impact on preferred battery chemistry ... but let's leave this aside for now

The biggest risk(s) of a single protected 18650 would likely be failure of protection circuit = no light

The biggest risk(s) of a single "unprotected" 18650 would likely be overdischarge + recharge = :poof: while charging

The biggest risk(s) of 2x CR123A in series would likely be mismatched cells under load = :poof: in use

The biggest risk(s) of 1x primary would likely be lower output / less runtime = potentially inadequate illumination and/or more battery changes
 

terjee

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There are some inherent differences between individual use, and major users like armed forces as well. You can saturate a supply pipeline with CR123A batteries, and that can arguably be easier (and thus more reliable), than field-recharging. "Put in a new battery" is hard to beat with anything rechargeable.
 

FlashKat

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Why not just use unprotected 18650 batteries.
I personally prefer unprotected 18650 batteries, but still use protected when there is no option.
 

Duster1671

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You can saturate a supply pipeline with CR123A batteries, and that can arguably be easier (and thus more reliable), than field-recharging.
This is probably a bigger factor in the reliability argument than failures of the technology. Rechargeable batteries, even when working correctly, have a maintenance cost that's usually negligible to an individual user or hobbyist but very real to a large organization.
 

mk2rocco

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I've had and protected AW 18650 fail after a 5ft drop in a Malkoff Hound Dog. Now I only use unprotected cells or cr123 batteries in my duty and hard use lights.
 

WebHobbit

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Well for me personally (and I'm NOT Law Enforcement although I do carry a gun) I have really tapered back my 18650 use. I only use them now for what I consider my "big lights"...lights I only use around the house and property (I live on 55 acres in a rural area) like my Malkoff Hound Dog 18650. My EDC lights are now 1xcr123a only. Currently that's a Malkoff MDC SHO cr123a. I am interested in the Elzetta Alpha but I am a little put off by the 415 lumens with a sub 1 hour run-time. I also plan on getting the Elzetta Bones and the Surefire Peacekeeper and like the HD 18650 I will run them with 1x18650 protected. But my carry lights will be single primary cell configs.
 

StorminMatt

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Why not just use unprotected 18650 batteries.
I personally prefer unprotected 18650 batteries, but still use protected when there is no option.

This would certainly take the problem of protection circuit failure out of the picture. And these days, more people than ever are going the unprotected route (especially with Zebralight requiring them.
 

FlashKat

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When protection circuits first came out they had a lot of problems, but they have improved over the years.
I don't like them as they cause more problems than being helpful.
Could a protection circuit short out and cause more of a problem?
 
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